F8L_LS1

iTrader: (5)

so im wondering if these will be too much with my upcoming head swap. i wana get these b/c there is a killer deal on them right now.

i will have:
afr 205's - milled to 62cc's
11 to 1 compression
ls7 lifters
cometics
a r headers + catted y
gmmg catback
ls6 intake
ported throttle body
asp underdrive pulley
218/224 .555/.556 115+4 LSA cam

will these injectors be too much (42lb lucas injectors ) or should i just stick with the SV0 30's?

SS DNA

iTrader: (7)

Im telling you, get 42 pounders and have peace of mind for the future. I know you will want to spray !

ZL1Killa

iTrader: (17)

you will be fine. any 42#ers will do you fine and be fine.

FICINJECTORS

iTrader: (30)

hate to break up the 42lb love fest but...

Yes they will work, providing you have a very very good tuner.

42lb injectors on an LSx flow 48.5

48.5lb injectors will support over 600HP without blinking on an NA application.

For me to suggest over injectoring by that much, it would have to be a very very good price.

Rich@pm-fl.com

iTrader: (1)

The Lucas 42lb injectors that we have on sale right now, flow 42lb @ 58psi. At 43.5psi they flow 36lb.

wht01ws6ta

iTrader: (45)

So those are really 36lb injectors then, correct? The "standard" flow rate by which injector flow is measured is 3 bar or 43.5 psi, right?

Just wanted to clear that up so someone doesn't buy the wrong size injector thinking they flow more than they do.

Rich@pm-fl.com

iTrader: (1)

Correct. As stated in my sale thread, I went ahead and did the conversion, so there would be no confusion, and eliminate the guess work.

Frost

iTrader: (45)

I would think that adds confusion since we are used to injector discussion at 3bar....

Never the less, even if they were the 42s (3bar) there should not be a "pro" tuner anywhere that has a problem with them; even on a stock engine.

Rich@pm-fl.com

iTrader: (1)

Some people are used to it, some are not. If somebody asks me for a set of 42lb injectors for their LS1, I am going to give them a set of injectors that will flow 42lbs in their LS1.

ZL1Killa

iTrader: (17)

those 42# injectors will work fine, no need for a "great" tuner. i know plenty of people running 42# on N/A 400hp cars with the only modification being the IFR table and the pulsewidths tables <-- those need to be modified as these disc type instead of the pintle (is that right?) types can react faster

wht01ws6ta

iTrader: (45)

I don't think that is a good idea and it does cause confusion (good thing you explained it later) the way you listed them in the first post.

You might want to explain to that person that asks for 42lb injectors that by normal 43.5psi standards they are 36lb injectors but in our fuel systems they will flow 42 so they

1.) know what they are getting and

2.) will have that knowledge for the installation and future use.

I know if I called and said I wanted 42lb injectors for my LS1 and you sold me 36lb injectors I would not be a happy customer. Especially since I already have a set of 36lb injectors lol.

Don't mean to hijack, just wanted to prevent some confusion.

Looks like you have some good deals going in your FS thread, even at the inflated 58psi rate.

kenp

iTrader: (9)

Point taken ls2nut. Some of what happens around here has nothing to do with theory or design, but what has been tried, what works, and what works better. I don't have an LS2 and don't know all that differentiates it from the LS1, but my LS1 has Rochester ball type injectors and I replaced them with larger Bosch pintle injectors. The bosch injector behaves differently based on my wide band and my idle. Some of the guys who have spent a lot of time working on tunes with these other brands/types of injectors know what works in our cars and PCM's with the least amount of parameter change and that work best throughout the operating range for us. We want to mod our cars and maintain oem driving characteristics. My pintle injectors aren't too bad with the modest changes I've made to my tune, but my idle is not as good as it was with the Rochesters. I have a very slight tip-in problem with the AFR going lean, and I have a decel issue with the injectors going rich. The one thing I don't do now is overheat the injector and run out of fuel. Now then, my issues with the pintle injector are common. A search on HP Tuners forum or EFILive or here on LS1Tech reveals that people have wrestled with this for a long time. On the other hand, for reasons not real clear to me even after reading everything I can find on the subject, the Delphi/Lucas disc injector seems to more closely replicate the behavior and characteristics of the Rochester injector. Why? Well, we're not certain because a lot of the information we need to tune these injectors is unavailable to us. Then too, we don't have all of the calculations/relationships GM included in the PCM/ECU. There are things we know and things we don't know. Thre are times that someone adjusts a table or parameter and the result is not as expected because we don't know all of the relationships taken into account by GM. It works when one person tries it, another person tries it and it works, and the rest of us do it because it works. Some theorists and physics and math majors and engineers try to explain it but.....

Do people try to sell snake oil around here on occasion? Sure. But it doesn't last for long because people share what works and what doesn't.

The Lucas injectors work based on experience. Why? If you can find out it'd be an interesting read, but for results oriented gear heads it don't matter much.

That's the reality.

Racetronix

iTrader: (2)

Most of the injectors listed on our web page are spec'd at the industry standard unless indicated otherwise. In some cases we state the flow at LSx pressures if the injector is popular in this market.

All tests run with n-Heptane @ 20oC (+/-1oC), 3.0 Bar (+/-0.01 Bar), 14VDC (+/-0.05VDC), saturated driver with RC cutoff
Of coarse the saturated driver only applies to high-impedance injectors.

LS1 EV6 injectors are made by Bosch for Delphi. They are a variation of a disc design with metering holes in the orifice plate.
The LT1 and L98 cars used Delphi (Rochester) Multec 1 ball/seat injectors. Early model M1 injectors had various problems most notably with their coils.

As far as injector brands go we carry SMP, Delphi, Siemens (Continental), Magnetti Marelli and some Bosch. Most reputable injector distributors who provide lab-quality flow-matching services will re-label the injectors regardless of the manufacture in order to create brand awareness. There are only two other companies that we know of other than Racetronix who have invested heavily in the development of custom lab-quality flow-benches... PTE (mostly Delphi injectors) and RC Engineering (mostly SMP injectors). Other companies who claim to offer this service typically use run of the mill service shop injector test benches such as the Asnu and New Age brands. These service flow-benches are designed for basic comparative testing of low-flow injectors. They were not designed to be used as lab equipment and do not have the control and stability to maintain the accuracy required to properly flow-match injectors. There is nothing wrong with re-branding. It is common practice no matter if you are buying a GM car made by Suzuki or a Kenmore fridge made by Fridigaire. Re-branding is sometimes used to let a customer know that value added service or parts have been incorporated into the item they are buying. Racetronix does not remove the manufacturer's logo from injectors or fuel pumps.

FICINJECTORS

iTrader: (30)

good post LS2nut, and to answer the bold part...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Emnax2J4FX4

FICINJECTORS

iTrader: (30)

We've been really busy lately. But new videos are coming soon.

Racetronix

iTrader: (2)

SMP's target market is the service industry. SMP injectors are re-branded and sold by Delphi and other OEMs as certified replacement injectors which offer the same or, in many cases, better performance than the factory injectors. SMP's injector manufacturing capability is very small in comparison to Bosch or Siemens so they are not geared up for the type of volumes required by an OEM. They are moving in that direction and will be introducing some new over-molded (plastic body) injectors in the future. Bosch and Siemens hold most of the market share in OEM injector sales. You will find many Siemens injectors in Ford, Chrysler and import cars. The Siemens DEKA 4, 5 and new 7 series injectors are just as good if not better than the best Bosch has to offer at this time in MPFI. WD costs on HP injectors are very close. SMP is a smaller company so they are more easily able to bring custom high-performance calibrations to market and that is why they have the largest HP offing and best lead times. On the other hand Siemens, Bosch and Delphi have much more difficulty bringing new calibrations to market because of the internal red tape and sales numbers they are looking for. The Siemens 63 which everybody has come to love might never had made it to market if it was not for its roots in the Mercury Marine program. Most of the high-performance injectors from the big three we have become familiar with have their roots in OEM applications and share many of the same parts.

As far as Lucas goes that brand name died years ago with Delphi's acquisition of the line before they sold it to SMP. Most of the SMP injectors being built now are redesigned. Many have stainless bodies and components making them compatible with alcohol laden fuels and Methanol. The response times and operating pressures have been enhanced. There are a wide range of spray patterns available to suite various applications. RC Engineering's line of injectors is primarily comprised of SMP product. RC is one of the most respected injector vendors out there. If SMP disc injectors were crap as some people would like you to believe, why would RC have such overwhelming success with their product? Why would a large company like RC, Mr. Gasket etc. invest millions of dollars with SMP if they did not feel the injectors they made would provide the performance and reliability their customers have come to expect? Do you not think that these companies have the buying prowess to vendor shop? This subject of one brand vs. another is utterly ridiculous. SMP, Bosch, Delphi etc. all make GOOD products. You would be hard pressed to find any performance difference between a Delphi 42, Bosch 42 or SMP 42 given a proper PCM calibration. That being the case it pretty much comes down to how much time a tuner has spent becoming familiar with a particular injector type / calibration. In most cases we find that a particular injector type / calibration is more of a niche thing. When one group of car owners becomes familiar with a certain calibration and they start to share tuning info it tends to create a buying pocket for a particular brand of calibration.

We don’t quite understand ls2nut’s question. We stated above that we carried various injector manufacturer’s product. Racetronix is not an injector brand but rather an injector distributor. Racetronix buys directly from manufacturers. To our knowledge there are 4 injector calibrations in our SMP product lineup which cross over to Accel product. One or two of these they do not offer in 1% FM sets. Accel is a brand of Mr. Gasket. Mr. Gasket re-distributes their injectors to people like Trick Flow. Accel, MSD, FAST etc. started to carry the Siemens 63 (aka Mototron) giving them names like Jammer etc. There are many injectors out there which cross into different product lines such as MSD <> Delphi and Holley <> Delphi.

Racetronix

iTrader: (2)

We understand that FIC’s YouTube videos are an attempt to ‘educate’ people about injectors but unfortunately the information provided is skewed; there is much generalization and many errors in relation to terminology and how certain technical aspects of the injectors interrelate. We have tried to engage FIC in meaningful technical discussions before but unfortunately they got nasty and did not want to participate.

When viewing these videos one must understand that there are MANY technical aspects to an injector which are that way for a reason. Most often an injector spray pattern can not be categorized into good and bad as F.I.C.’s videos would lead a layman to believe. Injector spray patterns are different for different applications. An engineer may spec out a particular spray pattern based on the following criteria:

1)where and at what angle the injector is situated inside the intake runner relative to the intake valve
2)how many valves there are in the intake manifold
3)airflow patterns, velocities etc. within the intake runners

To state it quite simply an injector which creates more misting inside an injector test cylinder (such as some of the injectors FIC show their videos) is not necessarily a good thing. Wide spray angles / cones can create too much wetting of the intake runners. This causes the fuel droplets to pool and puddle at the base of the intake valve. This is very bad for drivability and emissions. Ideally the spray pattern should be such that it targets the base of the intake valve with minimized wetting of the intake runners.

Here is a small excerpt from one of the Society of Automotive Engineers technical documents on injectors:

SPRAY PATTERN AND DISTRIBUTION
One function of the fuel injector is to atomize or break up the fuel into fine droplets. An associated function of the fuel injector is to direct this atomized fuel at a desired target. The control of the spray pattern characteristics is important for all types of fuel injection systems (reference Section A.2 in Appendix for description of injector types). The spray pattern targets fuel to optimize transportation and vaporization. The engine requires vaporization of the gasoline for proper combustion. Fine droplets increase the surface area to volume ratio of the gasoline, which reduces the time for the gasoline to vaporize. Throttle body fuel injectors typically have a hollow cone pattern ranging from 40 to 60 degrees included angle. The cone angle is specified to target the fuel with respect to the throttle plate. Typically multi-port fuel injector systems target the fuel at the inlet valve, and therefore can have single or multiple sprays with varying cone angles. Packaging constraints and inlet valve configurations may require more complicated spray geometries, such as off-axis or bent streams, or even bent multiple streams (see Figure 6). Spray cones less than 8 degrees included angle, are normally referred to as pencil streams. The larger cone angles range from 8 to 30 degrees included angle. Multiple streams, also referred to as split streams, typically have separation angles ranging from 10 degrees to 35 degrees (see Figure 7). Off-axis streams, also referred to as bent streams, typically angle from 5 degrees up to 20 degrees (see Figure 8). The spray cone fuel distribution can be hollow with the majority of the fuel in the outer cone surface or solid with a fairly uniform distribution of fuel within the cone angle.





Some injector types are able to flow at higher operating pressures than others because of their internal design. This does not necessarily mean they are superior to their counterparts. Just because an injector is flowing at a higher pressure does not mean that it is operating properly. There are cases where the injector may not be fully opening or closing which would cause inconsistent fuel delivery. Using the Ansu flow-bench would not allow one to see this because its readings are based on the total volume of fuel over an extended period of time. Precision measuring devices and an accelerometer are required to run these types of tests.

A prime example of this type of problem is inherent in some of the injectors FIC and other vendors modify such as the 83lb Siemens DEKA 4 high-impedance model. FIC takes a Siemens 63lb injector and modifies/removes the orifice plate at end of the injector. The orifice plate is a precision opening made via EDM or LASER spec’d down to microns. Once the orifice plate is removed the only thing left to control the flow is the internal flow path and mostly the electro-mechanical valve. There are a few major problems with this. The restriction between the orifice plate and the valve allow the valve to operate with a consistent linear snap action facilitating full opening and closing action. This is done by balancing the internal fuel pressures, spring pressure etc. Once the orifice plate is modified the valve itself becomes the main item metering the fuel. Fuel delivery will vary wildly (per pulse) because the total valve lift and speed will vary with fuel pressure, and applied voltage (as well as other factors). We brought a bunch of these modified injectors into our lab and confirmed the findings by using our DSO and some other equipment. For a more detailed analysis we sent the modified injectors back to the manufacturer who was able to backup our findings. The mg per pulse varied wildly based on minor changes in pressure and voltage. The injector’s linearity was very bad with little to no repeatability. A high-speed video shows the fuel exiting the injector in a random wild spinning motion as the valve rotates inside the injector. The test results were expected but no less alarming considering how many are out there now. In response to the demand for a higher-flow high-impedance injector Siemens is releasing a properly engineered 82lb DEKA 4 pencil-stream injector in the next few weeks.





Some people view fuel injectors as simple devices which can be modified with simple equipment and little or no engineering background. What many people must come to realize is that fuel injector science is VERY involved. A fuel injector may look very simple on the outside but millions of dollars and many gifted minds have contributed to what goes into them.

Most of the information floating around these forums on fuel injectors is hearsay. All too many vendors do not take the time to properly educate themselves on fuel injector technology which further adds to the misinformation floating around.

For those of you who would like to enhance you understanding of fuel injector technology we recommend checking with SAE. They have great articles that delve deep into the science of fuel injectors.

The best advice we can give a customer looking to buy HP injectors is to call the tuner they like to deal with and ask them which injector they recommend based on their personal tuning experience. At the end of the day customer satisfaction will come down mostly to the tune and NOT the brand of injector.

Racetronix

iTrader: (2)

Both of these photos are from Siemens engineering so in the same sentence you are calling them liars too. Why would we doctor their photos to show false info and jeopardize our relationship with them by doing that? We added the text and watermark to ID the photos but NOTHING else. We are not trying to discredit FIC or any other company. In actual fact we tried to bring this problem to the attention of certain vendors that were doing this early on but they thought they knew better and dismissed it instead of trying to learn something. Why kill a good thing especially when there are $ to be made? Racetronix has more than enough technical prowess to do the same thing to injectors but we know better. We are trying to show customers the underlying problems with modifying injectors. Any company is more than welcome to have the same tests conducted and post the results here. The Siemens 80 will be out in a few weeks so comparative products will be available.

FICINJECTORS

iTrader: (30)

I am so surprised that Racetronix has the time or the energy to put together this response since they don't have anytime to take care of their own customers. I have read your post and offer the following. You say our videos are not helpful or they are misleading, do me a favor show us yours. You say you have this elaborate lab for injector testing. Show it. Why would a reseller have a lab anyway? We service a few thousand injectors a month and have been for almost 30 years. I stand behind our equipment and expertise. You talk about spray patterns etc. But you only offer 1 injector for every car made. If someone wants a 60lb High z you sell them the seimens Deka, Its the only 60 you sell. But, we on the other hand can offer a 60 at any pressure desired plus it will be the same specs as the factory injector. We have many customers all over the world buying our products so lets face it, Racetronix can't take the competition. Next month we are offering 60lb deka's for $300.00 a set brand new. There is some restrictions but that’s the price. What really bugs me is that you took the same photo and "photo shopped" it to make these guys believe that you sent my 83lb injector to seimens for evaluation. Look at the pic real close you will see that the one you say is ours does not even spray from the middle of the injector. How did we do that? Also you blew the one marked FIC up double size it does look like you cropped the spray from the bottom of your smaller pic and placed it on the phony up higher. Also we do not remove the discharge plate as you have said. We use high speed dental drills that spin at 35,000 rpm while the injector is pulsed and pressurized to keep debris out of the injector. You say that the tolerances in factory injectors are measured in Microns. Last time I measured the holes in the bottom of a 60lb siemens they were 21 thousands of an inch. A micron is 1 millionth of 1 millimeter. There is no need for that measure of tolerance in any part of a car. If you have one of our 83's please read off the serial # engraved in the bottom, and tell me the color of the anodized bottom as all our mods are color coded for easy identifying. If you can’t give me the number I do not believe you have one. As I know where every set of 83's are. Is business so bad at Racetronix that you need to mess with everything we do. I hope some of our shop owners and customers that use our injectors will post on this thread. I would like to hear from them how these injectors don't work. Racetronix, we sell new injectors like you do, for the same competitive price. But, we offer alternatives for the guy that wants the bigger size to meet the mods of his engine. We also sell rebuilt injectors by the thousands, and supply cores to other companies in large quantities, plus we have commercial accounts that keep up busy all day. We work 12hrs a day 6 days a week. Any customer can call me anytime. Our customer service is second to none and we warrantee every injector for 3 years. How long do you warrantee yours for? Our phone number is listed, where’s yours? I think you should spend your time getting your own house in order and stop worrying about ours. And 1 more thing when the 82 comes out next month I will make them 100lbs. How many sets do you want? . We just sold a set of 83's to Speed Inc a member of this forum. I hope he posts how they worked out. Also, you can call Injected Engineering in Kennesaw Ga. http://www.injectedengineering.com/ for a reference ask for Ryan. Or Xtreme Motorsports in Florida, talk to Chris Hubbard http://www.motorsportsxtreme.com/

Soul TKR

iTrader: (4)

that says it all right there... especially the last bit...

mind telling us all why you don't have a phone number listed?