Who is using the oil restrictor in their systems
#1
Who is using the oil restrictor in their systems
Just wanted to know who is using this and why. Why not just fix the REAL issue. If you have oil coming from the tail pipe then you have an issue. Why not just fix it. The restrictor WILL starve your turbo of oil. The STS system WASNT engineered to use any sort of restrictor.
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so how would i fix this REAL issue... i also asked in this other thread
https://ls1tech.com/forums/forced-in...arge-side.html
https://ls1tech.com/forums/forced-in...arge-side.html
#7
There is 40 plus lbs of oil pressure from the engine to the turbo. The scavenger pump is designed to scavenge three time that much oil. All of this was engineered, STS has been in business for a while with literaly thousands of very satisfied customers. I myself had the oil issue, and instead of fixing the issue which was making sure the pump was running properly and checking everything out, I put a band aid on the problem and used the restrictor, not Im having to pay to rebuld my turbo.... Only to find out that I didnt install the pump and run the lines properly and make sure the supplied check valve and everything was correct. Noone likes a smoky car or oil in the intake, but starving the turbo isnt good either. Front mount guys use restrictors, and have been for years the oil only has a couple of feet to go to get to and from the turbo, the STS kit is in the rear, many more feet for the oil to go, it needs all 40 plus lbs of oil pressure from the engine to get back there...
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I ran my base STS kit for 2 years, no restrictor just the check valve and STS oil pump, and I would get an oily film inside the intake piping. This was with the upgraded Gt-67 turbo with .96 a/r.
I installed a .65 restrictor, and no more oily film.
I installed a .65 restrictor, and no more oily film.
#9
Watch this video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P-nc24dOHmk
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How long have you been running the restrictor, I ran with one for only a couple of thousand miles, and my turbo finaly just took a dump. But, Im also making 600 RWHP with my STS, but still, to restrict the flow of oil to the turbo, I dont want a oil film layer in my charge paping either, but I cant afford to keep rebuilding turbos..
Watch this video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P-nc24dOHmk
Watch this video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P-nc24dOHmk
I put the restrictor on in december of last year and have put roughly 1000 miles on it. The turbo seems fine and still sounds the same as before, but no more oily film. Did your turbo show any signs or make any noise before it went out? Which turbo are you using?
#13
I was using the .65 restrictor that has been mentioned n this board. It seemed to have work great. No, more smoke, oil in the charge papes or anything. I was more then happy. Then a week ago I started noticing a marble in a tin can noise, and finally it was dead, no more spooling sound, just a bunch of marbles. The turbo is the Air 60 from STS.
#14
TECH Addict
I just added one. these posts make me nervous but a number of folks have claimed to use them with sucess. same story, was getting oil in the discharge lines, enough to actually drip out of the turbo, added restrictor, no more oil. I have a ported oil pump. Only had the restrictor for 2 weeks or so, so no long term data from me.
#15
taken from Chris @ horsepowerfreaks.com
We've been very busy lately with a lot of things going on. I just wanted to post up an update since it's been awhile.
#1 Lessons Learned...
Injectors can clog over time, can flow less than others of the same type, can start out bad, can flow different than their rating (even when we get the rating sheet), and can have flow patterns that are too wide or too narrow. All of these things can and will cause our kits to not perform as designed.
Two great examples of this problem occurred on Raythomas's M3 and Kevin's M3. On Ray's M3, he had poor performing injectors right from the start even though we had the rating sheet on them. His car would knock, and would sometimes have a wandering idle. His car was also down on power. On Kevin's M3, once we installed stage 2.5, his car had a hunting idle. Both of these problems occurred from one ore more injectors not operating optimally. Both problems were fixed by simply replacing the injectors.
As we're shipping tons of kits around the world, we can't afford to have mistakes at the manufacturing level, and decided to bite the bullet and buy a fuel injector test machine. For those of you that know about these, they aren't cheap! The ASNU fuel injector test bench has amazing capabilities and we can now flow injectors, clean injectors, run them through rpm cycles, check spray patterns, etc. We are now testing every injector that leaves our facility. This machine is very expensive, but it is WAY more expensive to have customers with cars not operating optimally. I will produce a video of this machine shortly when I have some free time. There are pictures below.
#2 Lessons Learned
The smoky turbo lesson. We have been around and around and around with swapping turbos recently on the stage 2.5 cars. We've narrowed this problem down to the stage 2.5 M3's and have "finally" got a solution. Kevin's, Brian's and Scott's M3's now have turbos on them with clearances that are slightly tighter than many of the other M3 turbos which is why they don't smoke (but may occasionally). As the stage 2.5 cars run higher boost than the stage 1 and 2 cars, There's an amount of boost that literally goes from the turbo compressor housing down the shaft. We've verified this on several turbo's on Frank's M3. On a normal car where the turbo sits above the oil level this wouldn't be a problem as this excess pressure in the oil return line would just vent into the crankcase. It turns out that the boost in the oil return line after a pull when the throttle is closed = turbo boost pressure - 12psi when our oil scavenge pump is used. So for a car pulling 13psi, boost pressure in the oil return line with a Precision journal bearing turbo = 1psi with our oil scavenge pump which doesn't have any adverse effects. For a stage 2.5 car pulling 23psi, boost pressure in the oil return line with a Precision Journal bearing turbo = 11psi. This extra line pressure in the oil return line is air and cannot be easily pumped out with the scavenge pump. This extra line pressure forces oil out into the turbine housing of the turbo after the throttle plate is closed which results in blue smoke out the exhaust. We just devised a new system and are installing it on Frank's M3. His car was literally ready to leave, did several pulls and was fine, then right before we shipped it, it smoked during my final test drive. 3 turbo's and 2 oil pumps later we finally narrowed it down to a oil return line pressurization problem which we fixed with some new technology we implemented. I'll post up some pictures of that tomorrow.
#3 My Tran's Stage 3 -> 4 M3
My Tran's M3 is going "UP" from stage 3. He wants stage 4, and we're going to accomodate it "partially". His car is SMG, so we're not sure how much more our stage 2 clutch will hold, but we're going to get him some more power. We're going to do that with the new intake pipe, new air duct, much larger FMIC and more boost. Below are some pictures of his car with our first prototype FMIC on it. That FMIC is going to be installed on the HPF M3 for testing, and we're ordering our production shipment of FMIC's with a couple minor corrections. My Tran is also getting the Asuka widebody and HRE wheels. So Florida will be seeing a "seriously" fast M3 when the car is done.
#4 Kevin's M3 Stage 2 -> 2.5, Greg's Stage 2 - Traction Control M3
Kevin wanted some love while he's fighting for our Country in Afganistan. Thanks Kevin!! Here's a picture of your car waiting patiently for stage 2.5. Right next to his is Greg's M3 waiting to get some more mods done. Can't wait to see you join the stage 2.5 club. Greg will be the first Stage 2 with our traction control system.
#5 Roberts/Ardika's Stage 3 M3
Robert's (was Ardika's) M3 has the engine out and it is now back from the machine shop. This was another motor we replaced free of charge due to the poor machining done by the machine shop we used previously. This new motor was bored 0.020 over by a state of the art Sunnen machine, Torque Plated, with all taper removed. It also has our new 0.020 over pistons. This motor is going back into this car tomorrow.
#6 HPF M3
The HPF car is now back in the queue and getting ready for MFest. We plan on turning up the boost to try to make over 902rwhp (our previous best) with our new parts. We also might be installing the new OS Giken rear differential (if we can get it done in time).
#7 Built Motors for Shipping
We've also been ordering used engines so we can ship built motors to our dealers and customers world-wide. Our first built motor from a used core will be installed in the HPF M3. Below is another used engine and tranny that we bought.
Here is the fuel injector test bench. It can flow 8 injectors at a time.
Here's My Tran's Stage 3 M3 going for Stage 4
Here's Jessie's Stage 2 M3 going for Stage 2.5
Here's Greg's M3 going for Traction Control on his Stage 2
Here's a used engine and tranny I bought for built motor stages. We're going to build this motor and have it in stock and ready to ship.
Here's JP and Chris K (not me) hard at work
Video of Turbo Return Line Pressure Testing. You can see when turbo boost pressures enter into the oil return line. Boost is varied from pull to pull and you can see the effects on the oil pressure. We swapped a turbo between some of the pulls and an oil pump between the others. It got considerably better after we swapped an oil pump but still not good enough.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-lvFMTRMwc4
Video of future pulls except we now have another line that allows the excess pressure to be relieved while the pressure gauge is still in line. Some of the videos were done just free-revving.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3LmCSuDskhY
We now have a solution that simulates the open bypass which I'll post up pictures to shortly. This will allow allow the free escape of boost pressure from the oil return when turbos require it.
Chris.
#1 Lessons Learned...
Injectors can clog over time, can flow less than others of the same type, can start out bad, can flow different than their rating (even when we get the rating sheet), and can have flow patterns that are too wide or too narrow. All of these things can and will cause our kits to not perform as designed.
Two great examples of this problem occurred on Raythomas's M3 and Kevin's M3. On Ray's M3, he had poor performing injectors right from the start even though we had the rating sheet on them. His car would knock, and would sometimes have a wandering idle. His car was also down on power. On Kevin's M3, once we installed stage 2.5, his car had a hunting idle. Both of these problems occurred from one ore more injectors not operating optimally. Both problems were fixed by simply replacing the injectors.
As we're shipping tons of kits around the world, we can't afford to have mistakes at the manufacturing level, and decided to bite the bullet and buy a fuel injector test machine. For those of you that know about these, they aren't cheap! The ASNU fuel injector test bench has amazing capabilities and we can now flow injectors, clean injectors, run them through rpm cycles, check spray patterns, etc. We are now testing every injector that leaves our facility. This machine is very expensive, but it is WAY more expensive to have customers with cars not operating optimally. I will produce a video of this machine shortly when I have some free time. There are pictures below.
#2 Lessons Learned
The smoky turbo lesson. We have been around and around and around with swapping turbos recently on the stage 2.5 cars. We've narrowed this problem down to the stage 2.5 M3's and have "finally" got a solution. Kevin's, Brian's and Scott's M3's now have turbos on them with clearances that are slightly tighter than many of the other M3 turbos which is why they don't smoke (but may occasionally). As the stage 2.5 cars run higher boost than the stage 1 and 2 cars, There's an amount of boost that literally goes from the turbo compressor housing down the shaft. We've verified this on several turbo's on Frank's M3. On a normal car where the turbo sits above the oil level this wouldn't be a problem as this excess pressure in the oil return line would just vent into the crankcase. It turns out that the boost in the oil return line after a pull when the throttle is closed = turbo boost pressure - 12psi when our oil scavenge pump is used. So for a car pulling 13psi, boost pressure in the oil return line with a Precision journal bearing turbo = 1psi with our oil scavenge pump which doesn't have any adverse effects. For a stage 2.5 car pulling 23psi, boost pressure in the oil return line with a Precision Journal bearing turbo = 11psi. This extra line pressure in the oil return line is air and cannot be easily pumped out with the scavenge pump. This extra line pressure forces oil out into the turbine housing of the turbo after the throttle plate is closed which results in blue smoke out the exhaust. We just devised a new system and are installing it on Frank's M3. His car was literally ready to leave, did several pulls and was fine, then right before we shipped it, it smoked during my final test drive. 3 turbo's and 2 oil pumps later we finally narrowed it down to a oil return line pressurization problem which we fixed with some new technology we implemented. I'll post up some pictures of that tomorrow.
#3 My Tran's Stage 3 -> 4 M3
My Tran's M3 is going "UP" from stage 3. He wants stage 4, and we're going to accomodate it "partially". His car is SMG, so we're not sure how much more our stage 2 clutch will hold, but we're going to get him some more power. We're going to do that with the new intake pipe, new air duct, much larger FMIC and more boost. Below are some pictures of his car with our first prototype FMIC on it. That FMIC is going to be installed on the HPF M3 for testing, and we're ordering our production shipment of FMIC's with a couple minor corrections. My Tran is also getting the Asuka widebody and HRE wheels. So Florida will be seeing a "seriously" fast M3 when the car is done.
#4 Kevin's M3 Stage 2 -> 2.5, Greg's Stage 2 - Traction Control M3
Kevin wanted some love while he's fighting for our Country in Afganistan. Thanks Kevin!! Here's a picture of your car waiting patiently for stage 2.5. Right next to his is Greg's M3 waiting to get some more mods done. Can't wait to see you join the stage 2.5 club. Greg will be the first Stage 2 with our traction control system.
#5 Roberts/Ardika's Stage 3 M3
Robert's (was Ardika's) M3 has the engine out and it is now back from the machine shop. This was another motor we replaced free of charge due to the poor machining done by the machine shop we used previously. This new motor was bored 0.020 over by a state of the art Sunnen machine, Torque Plated, with all taper removed. It also has our new 0.020 over pistons. This motor is going back into this car tomorrow.
#6 HPF M3
The HPF car is now back in the queue and getting ready for MFest. We plan on turning up the boost to try to make over 902rwhp (our previous best) with our new parts. We also might be installing the new OS Giken rear differential (if we can get it done in time).
#7 Built Motors for Shipping
We've also been ordering used engines so we can ship built motors to our dealers and customers world-wide. Our first built motor from a used core will be installed in the HPF M3. Below is another used engine and tranny that we bought.
Here is the fuel injector test bench. It can flow 8 injectors at a time.
Here's My Tran's Stage 3 M3 going for Stage 4
Here's Jessie's Stage 2 M3 going for Stage 2.5
Here's Greg's M3 going for Traction Control on his Stage 2
Here's a used engine and tranny I bought for built motor stages. We're going to build this motor and have it in stock and ready to ship.
Here's JP and Chris K (not me) hard at work
Video of Turbo Return Line Pressure Testing. You can see when turbo boost pressures enter into the oil return line. Boost is varied from pull to pull and you can see the effects on the oil pressure. We swapped a turbo between some of the pulls and an oil pump between the others. It got considerably better after we swapped an oil pump but still not good enough.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-lvFMTRMwc4
Video of future pulls except we now have another line that allows the excess pressure to be relieved while the pressure gauge is still in line. Some of the videos were done just free-revving.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3LmCSuDskhY
We now have a solution that simulates the open bypass which I'll post up pictures to shortly. This will allow allow the free escape of boost pressure from the oil return when turbos require it.
Chris.
#16
Here's a video of our Turbo Return Line Pressure Testing. You can see when turbo boost pressures enter into the oil return line. Boost is varied from pull to pull and you can see the effects on the oil pressure in this return line. We swapped a turbo between some of the pulls and an oil pump between the others. It got considerably better after we swapped an oil pump but still not good enough.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-lvFMTRMwc4
Video of the next pulls except we now have another line that allows the excess pressure to be relieved while the pressure gauge is still in line. Some of the videos were done just free-revving, some were done with the line pressure relieved and some with it closed.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3LmCSuDskhY
We now have a solution that simulates the open bypass which I'll post up pictures to shortly. This will allow allow the free escape of boost pressure from the oil return when turbos require it.
Oh yea you do. Your car is scary to drive even on pump gas!
We normally cut piping with it, but in this case we were cutting the front bumper supports on the HPF M3 and on My Tran's M3. Nobody noticed the massive stage 4 intercooler on the car in the above pictures.
Agreed. We have spent a "FORTUNE" developing these turbo kits. One could retire for life on what we've spent engineering these kits (as long as they could find a suitable investment). I'm glad you like the upgrade. Driving the four stage 2.5 cars we've done so far have convinced me that for daily driving there is no other car on the planet I would rather drive than a stage 2.5. Period! I'm glad you are enjoying yours.
I'll post up pics tomorrow. This system will work on any stage 1, 2, 2.5, 3 or 4 car. It isn't necessary unless the turbo is a bit loose and the car smokes between shifts. Some turbos are loose but then get tighter over time as the carbon builds up on the bearings. You want a slightly loose turbo so the shaft won't seize to the bearings but not so loose that a lot of boost pressure goes down the shaft. This system will work for both tight and loose bearings and we will probably include this in all of our kits shipped in about a month. Frank is getting our prototype, but now we have to fully engineer it for production.
Our stage 2.5 and stage 3 kits will be available for self install or dealer install once the shop has completed a stage 1 or 2 kit installation themselves. At that point we will authorize them for the stage 2.5 and 3 kit installs.
Take care,
Chris.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-lvFMTRMwc4
Video of the next pulls except we now have another line that allows the excess pressure to be relieved while the pressure gauge is still in line. Some of the videos were done just free-revving, some were done with the line pressure relieved and some with it closed.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3LmCSuDskhY
We now have a solution that simulates the open bypass which I'll post up pictures to shortly. This will allow allow the free escape of boost pressure from the oil return when turbos require it.
Oh yea you do. Your car is scary to drive even on pump gas!
We normally cut piping with it, but in this case we were cutting the front bumper supports on the HPF M3 and on My Tran's M3. Nobody noticed the massive stage 4 intercooler on the car in the above pictures.
Agreed. We have spent a "FORTUNE" developing these turbo kits. One could retire for life on what we've spent engineering these kits (as long as they could find a suitable investment). I'm glad you like the upgrade. Driving the four stage 2.5 cars we've done so far have convinced me that for daily driving there is no other car on the planet I would rather drive than a stage 2.5. Period! I'm glad you are enjoying yours.
I'll post up pics tomorrow. This system will work on any stage 1, 2, 2.5, 3 or 4 car. It isn't necessary unless the turbo is a bit loose and the car smokes between shifts. Some turbos are loose but then get tighter over time as the carbon builds up on the bearings. You want a slightly loose turbo so the shaft won't seize to the bearings but not so loose that a lot of boost pressure goes down the shaft. This system will work for both tight and loose bearings and we will probably include this in all of our kits shipped in about a month. Frank is getting our prototype, but now we have to fully engineer it for production.
Our stage 2.5 and stage 3 kits will be available for self install or dealer install once the shop has completed a stage 1 or 2 kit installation themselves. At that point we will authorize them for the stage 2.5 and 3 kit installs.
Take care,
Chris.
#17
I posted up a thread a few weeks ago about our diagnosis of Boost pressures leaking from the compressor housing down the shaft and into the oil return line here http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=656007
For turbo kits whose turbo's are higher than the oil level and aren't using an oil pump this doesn't cause any issues because the extra pressure simply vacates into the crank-case. However, when an oil pump is required to pump the oil back into the crank-case the oil pump becomes a restriction to this excess air-flow. At boost pressures above 13psi, oil will leak out into the exhaust housing and will show up as white/blue smoke out the tailpipe. In order to vacate this extra boost pressure in the oil return line, we needed a very large opening into the oil pan. We also didn't want to have to require our customers to take their oil pans off and weld fittings onto the bottom of the oil pan. JP resolved both of these issues by taking advantage of an extremely large plug that exists on the oil pan of every S54 engine. He designed a fitting that replaces this plug that can be screwed into the oil pan with a socket. This fitting then has an internal threading that allows our -10 swivel to be screwed into it providing plenty of volume for the over pressurized oil to return. This is one small part of the overall oil return system, but I thought it was an ingenious idea on JP's part. This oil return system will come standard on all stage 2.5, 3 and 4 M3's where boost pressures exceed 13psi.
HPF Oil Return Fitting - replaces the Oil Plug on the S54 oil pan. These are CNC'd from a chunk of steel and clear nickel plated.
For turbo kits whose turbo's are higher than the oil level and aren't using an oil pump this doesn't cause any issues because the extra pressure simply vacates into the crank-case. However, when an oil pump is required to pump the oil back into the crank-case the oil pump becomes a restriction to this excess air-flow. At boost pressures above 13psi, oil will leak out into the exhaust housing and will show up as white/blue smoke out the tailpipe. In order to vacate this extra boost pressure in the oil return line, we needed a very large opening into the oil pan. We also didn't want to have to require our customers to take their oil pans off and weld fittings onto the bottom of the oil pan. JP resolved both of these issues by taking advantage of an extremely large plug that exists on the oil pan of every S54 engine. He designed a fitting that replaces this plug that can be screwed into the oil pan with a socket. This fitting then has an internal threading that allows our -10 swivel to be screwed into it providing plenty of volume for the over pressurized oil to return. This is one small part of the overall oil return system, but I thought it was an ingenious idea on JP's part. This oil return system will come standard on all stage 2.5, 3 and 4 M3's where boost pressures exceed 13psi.
HPF Oil Return Fitting - replaces the Oil Plug on the S54 oil pan. These are CNC'd from a chunk of steel and clear nickel plated.
and lastly
#19
how does it compare ?
HPF's kit uses the same gear driven oil pump used in your STS kit to scavange oil back into the pan.
because it uses a pump, theres backpressure before the pump, while cars that have straight drain setups will drain back normally into the pan and any backpressure caused by boost will go into the crank case, not get backed up behind the pump and exit out your turbo
now i think they fixed this was, probably Y off the oil return line, and have 1 bypass line running parallel to the pump, with a check valve in the middle, then Y it back into the line, this will allow back pressure to flow PAST the oil pump when pressure exists in the line, but still allows the pump to work the way it needs to by allowing forward flow of oil and not a "circulating" system. In addition, a much larger line that goes to your oil pan would probably be very beneficial over a dinky 3/8 line provided by STS
HPF's kit uses the same gear driven oil pump used in your STS kit to scavange oil back into the pan.
because it uses a pump, theres backpressure before the pump, while cars that have straight drain setups will drain back normally into the pan and any backpressure caused by boost will go into the crank case, not get backed up behind the pump and exit out your turbo
n a normal car where the turbo sits above the oil level this wouldn't be a problem as this excess pressure in the oil return line would just vent into the crankcase. It turns out that the boost in the oil return line after a pull when the throttle is closed = turbo boost pressure - 12psi when our oil scavenge pump is used. So for a car pulling 13psi, boost pressure in the oil return line with a Precision journal bearing turbo = 1psi with our oil scavenge pump which doesn't have any adverse effects. For a stage 2.5 car pulling 23psi, boost pressure in the oil return line with a Precision Journal bearing turbo = 11psi. This extra line pressure in the oil return line is air and cannot be easily pumped out with the scavenge pump. This extra line pressure forces oil out into the turbine housing of the turbo after the throttle plate is closed which results in blue smoke out the exhaust. We just devised a new system and are installing it on Frank's M3.
now i think they fixed this was, probably Y off the oil return line, and have 1 bypass line running parallel to the pump, with a check valve in the middle, then Y it back into the line, this will allow back pressure to flow PAST the oil pump when pressure exists in the line, but still allows the pump to work the way it needs to by allowing forward flow of oil and not a "circulating" system. In addition, a much larger line that goes to your oil pan would probably be very beneficial over a dinky 3/8 line provided by STS
#20
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That is a very interesting theory and i would be very interested to see if anyone has actually tested the pressure in the return line for our cars, as very few people run more than 13 psi on the rear mounts, I have a precision turbo so the theory seems likely. If there is no concrete evidence in the next month or so I may be the Guinea pig for this experiment.
Edit: although this doesn't explain why some cars do it at idle, and seem to do it with a change in oil pressure in the feed line not in relation to the amount of boost the turbo is building ...
Edit: although this doesn't explain why some cars do it at idle, and seem to do it with a change in oil pressure in the feed line not in relation to the amount of boost the turbo is building ...