Got into a discussion today about Iron vs Alum and Nitrous..
10-23-2003, 08:56 PM
#1
Got into a discussion today about Iron vs Alum and Nitrous.. Basically a ford guy was saying the iron block is the best motor for nitrous because you do not have to worry about sleeves having a problem. I told him that I think we have that problem solved.. One guy was saying go with a 397ci Alum and you should be able to spray a huge shot w/out a problem and the other guy was saying no way. Go iron.. I need some back up here.. Is the ford guy right or do we have some guys right now running a healthy dose of nitrous on their setup..? Reliable is the key.. Posted this here because WE really want to know if the iron block is overrated when compared to the new dry and wet sleeves..
10-23-2003, 09:07 PM
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Re: Got into a discussion today about Iron vs Alum and Nitrous.. Vince, if reliability is your #1 concern, then there is positively no question... go iron.
10-23-2003, 09:18 PM
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Re: Got into a discussion today about Iron vs Alum and Nitrous.. I'll be putting at least a 350 shot to my 422 alum stroker.The heavy iron block was out of the question for me.I consider it going backward to add 90 lbs to the nose of a sports car.A former sponsor makes a very reliable sleeved block.Don't be suprised that a Ford guy does'nt have a clue about a LS1.
10-23-2003, 09:36 PM
#5
Re: Got into a discussion today about Iron vs Alum and Nitrous.. A PROPERLY tuned 346 will handle 300 HP nitrous 
. A resleeved Darton dry block will handle equal amounts if not more due to the the higher strength of the sleeves.I know the 6.0l block makes some people fell better with their build up. I just don't like the idea of having the extra 90lbs on the front end.
. A resleeved Darton dry block will handle equal amounts if not more due to the the higher strength of the sleeves.I know the 6.0l block makes some people fell better with their build up. I just don't like the idea of having the extra 90lbs on the front end. Trending Topics
10-24-2003, 07:24 AM
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Vince, you should have no problems spraying a large shot of nitrous on an aluminum resleeved block. My reliability comment was directed at the actual sleeving process. If done correctly, you should no issues doing what you have planned with a resleeved alum. block. My only concern would be problems with the sleeves moving, causing headgasket/coolant issues, which could happen even if nitrous was never sprayed through the motor. As Alan mentioned, a properly done alum. block will hold up to quite a bit.
10-24-2003, 08:29 AM
#10
Vince, this is a no-brainer. For the past 2 yrs, several shops across the country and have been claiming that the "sleeve issue is solved". Sure, thats why sleeves are still dropping like flies even on N/A motors. I do not understand why you would run something that "should" work, but still questionable when you can run a tried and true Iron block thats not going to leave you blowing coolant all over the track and towing your **** home.
The 90 lbs isn't that much to worry about because you can compensate. Relocate your battery(and/or lighter battery), pull your washer fluid resevoir(if you haven't already), remove the washer fluid pump, lighter K-member since the motor is coming out anyway, and I know your big *** ***** some serious weight so take a dump before you go racing
Plain and simple physics. Which is stronger, Iron or Aluminum? Do I even need to ask that question? Another simple fact: Would you rather "chance" a motor holding a 300 shot based an opinion, or KNOW it's going to hold a 300 shot? Sounds like you're going to "chance" a lot of money by going on other people's opinions. Stop worrying about what other people think you should run, or what other people think is going to work. Base your decisions on hard core evidence, do some research. Just because one aluminum motor is holding a big shot, doesn't mean that Vince's aluminum motor is going to hold the same big shot. The Golden Child cars you read about on the internet are usually far from your local reality. Check into FAST cars running huge shots of nitrous and see how many are running aluminum sleeved blocks. Doesn't matter what kind, Ford, GM, etc...Check the averages. THAT'S how you base your decision. Now get off the damn internet and get to work
/rant off
/soap box off
BTW, this wasn't meant to step on anybody's toes. Just stating what I have learned from my own experiences.
josh
The 90 lbs isn't that much to worry about because you can compensate. Relocate your battery(and/or lighter battery), pull your washer fluid resevoir(if you haven't already), remove the washer fluid pump, lighter K-member since the motor is coming out anyway, and I know your big *** ***** some serious weight so take a dump before you go racing
Plain and simple physics. Which is stronger, Iron or Aluminum? Do I even need to ask that question? Another simple fact: Would you rather "chance" a motor holding a 300 shot based an opinion, or KNOW it's going to hold a 300 shot? Sounds like you're going to "chance" a lot of money by going on other people's opinions. Stop worrying about what other people think you should run, or what other people think is going to work. Base your decisions on hard core evidence, do some research. Just because one aluminum motor is holding a big shot, doesn't mean that Vince's aluminum motor is going to hold the same big shot. The Golden Child cars you read about on the internet are usually far from your local reality. Check into FAST cars running huge shots of nitrous and see how many are running aluminum sleeved blocks. Doesn't matter what kind, Ford, GM, etc...Check the averages. THAT'S how you base your decision. Now get off the damn internet and get to work
/rant off
/soap box off
BTW, this wasn't meant to step on anybody's toes. Just stating what I have learned from my own experiences.
josh
Last edited by Damian; 10-24-2003 at 08:37 AM.
10-24-2003, 10:56 AM
#12
In theory, if you know anything about BMEP, the larger the cubic Inches of the engine, the more power it will make at the same BMEP. Do to the BMEP theory, a 397 will be able to handle more power output then a 346. It shoud be able to take a bigger shot of N2O. I have a program I can e-mail you to help you understand this. But to make a long story short, the LS1 aluminum bock is a very strong and reliabe block. When GM went to the cast iron block I do not think the changed anything in the design except the material used. Cast iron is stronger then aluminum. So yes the cast Iron blocks are stronger at the expense of added wait. But, the blocks were designed first to be aluminum, and not cast iron. So the blocks are plenty strong as they are. If you have one done up with darton sleeves, I understand they are the best thing on the market, you should have no problems. As long as the work was done right. So the bigger ci you get with the darton sleeves will help your engine handle a bigger shot of N2O.
Just to bring some things to light about sleeved engines. I work in the industrial engine buisness. I use to work for Waukesha which is an industrial engine manufacture. All waukesha engines and all large caterpiler engines run wet sleeves. these engines are straight 6 cyenders, V-12 and V-16 also. They range from cubic inches and weight of 817 ci and 800 pounds to 9390 ci and up and 50000 pounds. They run at max power all day and night. 24-7-365. Yes the iners were out and we change them in the field but they ast for 4 to 5 years before overhaul. Some liners are very heavy and thick (.500" thick with and 11.5" bore), some are very thin and light (.250" with a 9 3/8th inch bore). They all work well. The load is in the cylinder. All the cylinder materials are cast iron. And yes some of the engine blocks are aluminum but they last just as long.
So to answer your Ford buddy, there are alot of bigger longer lasting engines out there that have been around for 50 years that run liners and are very reliable. OH yeh, if you want to know the power output of these engines, here it is, the small ones might make 150hp at 1000, rpm and the biggest make 5000+ hp at 1000 rpm. All day and night. making electricity for you. Moving your natural gas from the well head to your home. Moving trains, ships, even helping to get the Spaceshuttle into space. Moving water to your house. doing real work that a Ford engine can not think of doing.
There is nothing wrong with sleeved engines if the machine work is done correctly.
Just to bring some things to light about sleeved engines. I work in the industrial engine buisness. I use to work for Waukesha which is an industrial engine manufacture. All waukesha engines and all large caterpiler engines run wet sleeves. these engines are straight 6 cyenders, V-12 and V-16 also. They range from cubic inches and weight of 817 ci and 800 pounds to 9390 ci and up and 50000 pounds. They run at max power all day and night. 24-7-365. Yes the iners were out and we change them in the field but they ast for 4 to 5 years before overhaul. Some liners are very heavy and thick (.500" thick with and 11.5" bore), some are very thin and light (.250" with a 9 3/8th inch bore). They all work well. The load is in the cylinder. All the cylinder materials are cast iron. And yes some of the engine blocks are aluminum but they last just as long.
So to answer your Ford buddy, there are alot of bigger longer lasting engines out there that have been around for 50 years that run liners and are very reliable. OH yeh, if you want to know the power output of these engines, here it is, the small ones might make 150hp at 1000, rpm and the biggest make 5000+ hp at 1000 rpm. All day and night. making electricity for you. Moving your natural gas from the well head to your home. Moving trains, ships, even helping to get the Spaceshuttle into space. Moving water to your house. doing real work that a Ford engine can not think of doing.
There is nothing wrong with sleeved engines if the machine work is done correctly.
10-24-2003, 02:46 PM
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texas WS6 could you send that e-mail to smokinjoe118@hotmail.com ? i dont really understand how that works but i would like to 
10-11-2004, 03:03 AM
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10-11-2004, 09:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Damian
Vince, this is a no-brainer. For the past 2 yrs, several shops across the country and have been claiming that the "sleeve issue is solved". Sure, thats why sleeves are still dropping like flies even on N/A motors. I do not understand why you would run something that "should" work, but still questionable when you can run a tried and true Iron block thats not going to leave you blowing coolant all over the track and towing your **** home.
The 90 lbs isn't that much to worry about because you can compensate. Relocate your battery(and/or lighter battery), pull your washer fluid resevoir(if you haven't already), remove the washer fluid pump, lighter K-member since the motor is coming out anyway, and I know your big *** ***** some serious weight so take a dump before you go racing
Plain and simple physics. Which is stronger, Iron or Aluminum? Do I even need to ask that question? Another simple fact: Would you rather "chance" a motor holding a 300 shot based an opinion, or KNOW it's going to hold a 300 shot? Sounds like you're going to "chance" a lot of money by going on other people's opinions. Stop worrying about what other people think you should run, or what other people think is going to work. Base your decisions on hard core evidence, do some research. Just because one aluminum motor is holding a big shot, doesn't mean that Vince's aluminum motor is going to hold the same big shot. The Golden Child cars you read about on the internet are usually far from your local reality. Check into FAST cars running huge shots of nitrous and see how many are running aluminum sleeved blocks. Doesn't matter what kind, Ford, GM, etc...Check the averages. THAT'S how you base your decision. Now get off the damn internet and get to work
/rant off
/soap box off
BTW, this wasn't meant to step on anybody's toes. Just stating what I have learned from my own experiences.
josh
The 90 lbs isn't that much to worry about because you can compensate. Relocate your battery(and/or lighter battery), pull your washer fluid resevoir(if you haven't already), remove the washer fluid pump, lighter K-member since the motor is coming out anyway, and I know your big *** ***** some serious weight so take a dump before you go racing
Plain and simple physics. Which is stronger, Iron or Aluminum? Do I even need to ask that question? Another simple fact: Would you rather "chance" a motor holding a 300 shot based an opinion, or KNOW it's going to hold a 300 shot? Sounds like you're going to "chance" a lot of money by going on other people's opinions. Stop worrying about what other people think you should run, or what other people think is going to work. Base your decisions on hard core evidence, do some research. Just because one aluminum motor is holding a big shot, doesn't mean that Vince's aluminum motor is going to hold the same big shot. The Golden Child cars you read about on the internet are usually far from your local reality. Check into FAST cars running huge shots of nitrous and see how many are running aluminum sleeved blocks. Doesn't matter what kind, Ford, GM, etc...Check the averages. THAT'S how you base your decision. Now get off the damn internet and get to work
/rant off
/soap box off
BTW, this wasn't meant to step on anybody's toes. Just stating what I have learned from my own experiences.
josh
Originally Posted by Damian
Vince, this is a no-brainer. For the past 2 yrs, several shops across the country and have been claiming that the "sleeve issue is solved". Sure, thats why sleeves are still dropping like flies even on N/A motors. I do not understand why you would run something that "should" work, but still questionable when you can run a tried and true Iron block thats not going to leave you blowing coolant all over the track and towing your **** home.
Originally Posted by Damian
Plain and simple physics. Which is stronger, Iron or Aluminum? Do I even need to ask that question? Another simple fact: Would you rather "chance" a motor holding a 300 shot based an opinion, or KNOW it's going to hold a 300 shot? Sounds like you're going to "chance" a lot of money by going on other people's opinions. Stop worrying about what other people think you should run, or what other people think is going to work. Base your decisions on hard core evidence, do some research. Just because one aluminum motor is holding a big shot, doesn't mean that Vince's aluminum motor is going to hold the same big shot. The Golden Child cars you read about on the internet are usually far from your local reality. Check into FAST cars running huge shots of nitrous and see how many are running aluminum sleeved blocks. Doesn't matter what kind, Ford, GM, etc...Check the averages. THAT'S how you base your decision. Now get off the damn internet and get to work
If you want to move outside of the LS1 world into other Chevy and Ford stuff, some of the most widely used blocks are Aluminum. And these are motors making 1000HP easily on big shots of nitrous.
I'm also not trying to step on anybody toes, just trying to let people know that there are a lot of misconceptions about Aluminum blocks.