OutlawZ

iTrader: (4)

Alright this one is for guys like Shiznity, ATV, JL and some others on here that I know are spraying BIG shots along with myself. I'm currently running a 65 jet 1st unit and a 73 jet 2nd unit thru my plate. 2 stages of dry nitrous totaling up to about 325hp worth. 1st unit on t-brake release, 2nd unit currently at 0.8 sec out. 1st unit drops 10 degrees timing from 32 base, and the 2nd unit dumps another 12 (so 22 out from 32 leaves me at 10 total going downtrack)..... This tune is pretty conservative based on what Pro Flow tells me for their basic tuneup. And the standard of 2 degrees per 50hp you can see i'm way beyond that as far as timing retard. The car seemingly likes it as it went 151mph and 9.20 on those jets with that delay.

HOWEVER, I feel like i'm leaving a bunch of torque on the table pulling that much timing that early in the run (at 0.8 sec i'm at 10 and it's there the whole run)... I know if I run 1/8th mile I'd be able to run more timing since the runs are quicker and not as much heat builds up in the motor so my thought is this and please tell me what you think.

I'm considering making some 1/8th mile test hits with more timing back in it. We are going to put 73's in both sides of the plate (twin 175 shots). I'm thinking putting 4-5 degrees back in it and make some 1/8th mile test hits with the 350 shot. reading plugs and seeing where my timing marks are. If it can stand more i'll put it in till my timing marks read good. Also looking at what my 1/8th mile times/mph are doing obviously in relation to plugs. Since I use XFI I'm considering using the time based retard when i'm ready to run full quarter mile passes. If my 1/8th mile times are 5.75 for example then 5.75 seconds into the run I will pull out the 4-5 degrees I had added in for the 1/8th mile pulls. Then i'll check plugs again at the end of the 1/4 mile and once again make adjustments as necessary depending on timing marks and fuel ring..... I'm thinking I can make this thing MEAN to the 1/8th and once it starts building heat i'll pull out added timing to keep it safe and keep from burning anything up....

have any of you guys used the XFI like this? My tuner also told me that the 3rd and 4th stage power adder can be used like this even if nothing is connected to it. If you tell it to run 3 stages and make the "power adder exclusive" fueling table equal to the 2nd stage (so it doesn't add any more fuel) it will just pull additional timing at a predetermined time based on what you input..... I'm just curious as to how some of you are managing your timing for 1/8th mile vs 1/4 mile without giving away too many secrets if you don't want.....

camscam02

iTrader: (21)

Atv and shiz should be able to answer your question fairly easily im sure. Will be waiting to hear.

I have a guess but im just gonna keep that to myself. haha

OutlawZ

iTrader: (4)

I said nitrous guru's... not jabronies......

But theo telling me about using 3rd and 4th stages with nothing plugged into em is pure genius..... i would have never thought of doing that....

I meant this post to digress into serious advanced tech regarding nitrous cause sometimes the ignorance of some ppl on here kills me...... dudes spraying 200 shots with TR6's.....

98Z28CobraKiller

iTrader: (17)

How about pulling the timing based on RPM for the base timing and then not pulling as much thru your stages?

We were running 17* of timing in my buddies 427 w/ single stage progressive 385 wet shot. 116 in the dedicated cell and 93 in the tank. Car ran pretty consistant 8.9@150. The timing was at 17* the entire pass but the nitrous was there as well. Car ran like that for a year and a half and he sold the motor running. It was taken apart for inspection and found to have only minor bearing wear. Piston tops and chambers looked good. Rods were straight. Cylinders were perfect.

camscam02

iTrader: (21)

I think I remember shiz saying something about adding timing back in to it further down the track... I cant quite remember why they were doing this and if it was helping but I THINK i remember them saying they were doing this.

idk.... im just here to learn, so I can blow past outlawz here soon.

OutlawZ

iTrader: (4)

how can I do that??? other than go into the base timing map and pull timing from there.... not sure if i would want to go that route though cause i'm load indexed speed density....

as far as your buddies kit I think I can get away with 17 degrees. I just haven't tried yet....

standard rules of 2* per 50hp says I should be pulling 14* for a 350 shot which is the jets we're getting ready to run... that would have me at 18* from my base of 32.... I also know that with huge shots that the standard rules are not always the best option... NOS/NX/NPF could care less if you melt your motor down with their tuneups.... Which is why I started with 10 and plan on working my way up...

But if I can run to the 1/8th mile and then pull the timing back for high gear i'd like to go that route... quicker to the 1/8th will still be quicker overall seeing as how i'm running 10* the whole way now....

cam-You'll need to install another motor in your backseat driving the left wheel while the one underhood drives the right wheel to keep up with me...

ATVracr

iTrader: (5)

I'm far from a nitrous Guru but I'll take a stab at it.

We pull it out for the launch if the track is bad, then put it back in as soon as the track can take it.

Use the time based retard but be warned once its hot pulling the timing doesnt do as much as it would from the start

Instead of going up on the shot bring the 2nd one in faster.
We have our 2nd in anywhere from .3 -.5
Post up one of your runs ... RPM trace if you can.

OutlawZ

iTrader: (4)

I'll try and get a datalog up if I can take a screen shot of it. U won't be able to go thru it but you'll be able to see the timing and where it's setup based on RPM....

i see what you're saying about pulling it out later won't have as much effect as if it were there the whole run...

since I run quartermile I might just see what the motor will take timing wise setup for 1/4 and go from there. I might get confused with results if I start making 1/8th mile pulls and mess sumthing up...

we're going to bring the 2nd one in faster than 0.8. We're going to put it at 0.5 to begin with and start there. The reason we're upping the first stage is because my car is pulling 10% fuel to adjust back to the 11.5:1 AFR which is our target. the power adder exclusive table is purposely a bit fat just in case the wideband goes wacky for some reason. So by putting a bigger jet in the first unit and upping the overall hp by 25 (325 to 350) we're looking to bring the closed loop correction back to like 6-7%....

Also i asked my tuner if I could bring on the 2nd unit at 0.1 and he said that soon probably won't make much of a difference cause from .01 thru .3 the converter is still flashing up to it's stall based on torque and the cars reaction won't be much different since on the entire 350 it's gonna take longer to lockup and go than with a 175 first then another 175. He doubts it'll 60 foot much harder either way. I think we'll see a 1.2x out of it but at 3400 lbs probably not much better than that. I'll be happy with a 1.29. Hell it went 9.20 on a 1.36 so that would be a marked improvement.

ATVracr

iTrader: (5)

-Email me your log Wayne@glenburnieracing and I can see the whole thing with my laptop.
Post a screen shot so everyone can see what we are talking about.

-If your running 1/4 mile thats what I would do. Probably wouldnt be any faster because it will be a dog on the 2nd half of the track with a bunch of timing out.

-I like that idea but really you have no idea what the car is capable of yet.
Our car went from running 5.9's to 5.4's with the SAME EXACT jets.
The less you spray the less chance of hurting something. The better your tune up is with the smaller jets the better it will be when you go up in jet, less chance of hurting it as you go up. My advice lean it out whats in it, bring the 2nd in sooner. the car has 8's in it with those jets.

-If you put it at .1 it will go on the bumper. At .5 you should be getting close to the limit depending on how loose the converter is, ours is fairly tight so we can get away with .3-.4 most guys cant get it in that fast.
It will 60' faster the faster you can get it in, not a huge increase but you wont know til you try it.

JL ws-6

iTrader: (50)

I am not an expert, nor am I spraying alot LOL. I have worked on a few cars that were throwing the sink at it, and have seen the good and bad though.

You have more left without adding power (increasing jet), I will start with that. Getting more power in earlier is going to get you where you need to be and get you what the car is capable of. One thing that I wonder if you're tried, is swapping the kits, maek the 2nd the first and the first the 2nd, and swap the timing as well (so what you are pulling with the 65 stays with the 65 jet, etc)

This, would get more of the power on sooner, and may get you some large gains if the car will take it. Tightening the limiters one more hole for this change may be a really good idea.

I would like to see you try just that, and see what that gets you. You wouldn't be adding any more power, just changing which kit turns on first.

OutlawZ

iTrader: (4)

I'll try and get you that log so you can look at it.....

I definitely see what you're saying no doubt..... it won't go on the bumper cause i have wheelie bars so i could probably bring it in at .1.. hell i could probably leave on a 325 if i wanted to (if it hooks).... put a 325 shot on the first and call it a day....

my converter is pretty tight... stalls to 4200 on motor.. jumps about a grand when the first kit comes on... can't really see what it does after that since i'm not looking at the tach...

I tried leaning it out to 12:1 (from 11.5:1) and my car slowed down MPH wise.... it lost .2 mph going from 11.5 to 11.75 and then lost another .2 going from 11.75 to 12:1.... I run a plate so individual cylinder timing and fueling is not possible (my XFI runs bank to bank with no cam sync).... it kinda ties my hands cause if ONE cylinder is lean i have to apply that fueling and timing to the rest of the motor... makes me wish i had done a dry fogger now but oh well it is what it is.... live and learn.... how did you drop .5 tenths in the 1/8th? leaning it out and adding timing???? you said final AFR was like 12.5:1 IIRC on your setup??? I think this thing will go pretty friggin fast kicking some timing back into it for sure. 10 degrees for a 325/350 shot from 32 is pretty friggin low....

Tony Shepherd

iTrader: (4)

I agree with ATV. Get the most out of the jets you are using before you up-jet it. I know you have more in it just like it sits. Play with the delay, timing, and lean it out a bit. Keep reading your plugs and take your time.

I still don't like that it is correcting at 11%. You need to get that down to about 2% and set the max at 3%. This way if the sensor ever goes out it will only correct 3% either way.

ATVracr

iTrader: (5)

100% right on there ! ....11% I can see for the 1st coule of hits but it shouldnt take long to get it down.

Or better yet get it down to 1 or 2% and turn it off, we went faster once we turned the correction off, it has a delay to the correction so it will roller coaster the A/F slightly (constantly catching up one way or the other).

What plugs are you using?
Fuel?
Is there a timing mark on the plugs with it running at 10*?

Tony Shepherd

iTrader: (4)

Just fyi I was running 20* with my 275 shot. Taner runs a crap load of timing with his 350+ shots. But every engine is different. Read plug read plugs read plugs.

ATVracr

iTrader: (5)

-You can stick a colder plug in that hole.
Another step farther would be to have your injectors flowed and put the ones that flow the most in the leanest holes.

-Leaning it out, adding timing, converter swap.

ATVracr

iTrader: (5)

We are in the single digits for timing on a 400 shot.
Tony's right they all want something a little different.

Tony Shepherd

iTrader: (4)

opps..double posted

Tony Shepherd

iTrader: (4)

Thats a great idea!

But I have a cam sensor so I get to run sequential!

ATVracr

iTrader: (5)

Get a damn cam sensor OutlawZ !

OutlawZ

iTrader: (4)

Yeah I know.. we discussed the cam sensor deal and we promised that when we pull the motor to freshen it (hopefully AFTER an 8 second pass with it running) we are going to do a different distributor and put a cam sync in it.

When I was building my motor I was calling Tony weekly and he hooked me up with all the bad information to ensure I would blow my motor apart long before it got close to 8's... LOL... He said cam sync's are "for pussies" and that "real men run bank to bank"..... f-in texas boys... not to be trusted....

I have a -11 plug in all 8 holes so don't think I can go much colder than that. My tuner draws the line on the -10's at about 350hp and we're at that now so 11's are in it.... I run C16 only in a Nasty Performance sumped tank. Aeromotive Black eliminator inline pump, -10AN feed split to twin 8AN to the back of the rails. 6AN return and running 43.5 psi of fuel pressure. 83lb injectors. My duty cycle on the 300 hit was like 58%..... plenty of power to go before it runs out of fuel.....

I'm going to see what it corrects with the dual 73 jets (we aren't going to try a 400 shot just yet till we optimize)... It should be lower with the added 25hp worth of oxygen. then i'm going to get into the power adder exclusive table and pull all the 2nd stage numbers down by whatever percentage it's pulling in high gear... should get me dead on or within 2%. We had it at three percent with the 150 shot single stage but the 2nd unit complicated it. I did see the chasing action with closed loop and how it reacts to lean/rich condition.... corrects pretty quickly but you're right alot is going on at 7K+ RPMs....