technicalninja

iTrader: (1)

I'm provisioning a 02 LS1 (Camaro SS) engine for use in a 98 BMW M3 that I plan on running open road events in. Silver State Challenge. Big Bend Open Road Race, Texas Mile, that sort of thing. The car will also be used for track day use but I'm not trying to fit it into any specific class. It will be a high speed capable ultimate daily driver for me (at least NICE days ) It will have nearly all of the emission equipment from the Camaro installed and functional.
It will have all of its original equipment, radio, A/C, etc. I have a target weight of 3200 lbs dry. Carbon fiber will be used where appropriate. I already have the coolest seats you can imagine... CF Cobra Misanos in the correct color leather. They save nearly 100 lbs over the stock Vaders.

I am targeting a high cruise speed of 150 mph. It needs to be reliable enough to run at this speed indefinitely.
Please look over my intended mod list. Have I missed anything?
Do you have any other suggestions?

Car currently has a 3.23 ratio diff and 25" tall tire.

It's a LS1 short-block, bone stock with 31K on it. Verified LS6 block. Runs perfectly, has not been removed from donor SS yet (it's far easier to drive the Camaro around vs pushing it. )
I would like to use it as it sits, no rebuild. If I get to the point of building an engine I'd start with a LS2 or LS3 block. That's probably in this car's future anyways...
I'll be using ported 799s with the light weight Z06 valves milled to approx 61CCs targeting 11/1 compression with proper quench.
Improved Racing pan baffle
Oil temp/pressure gauges;(oil cooler, thermostat, and accusump if required).
Ported LS6 oil pump (shimmed for pressure).
Leaning towards 2 row T-chain set up.
Rod bolt upgrade, probably the Katechs.
LS7 lifter/LS2 trays
Trunnion upgrade.
LS6 intake most likely with the 90MM t-body mod.
Serious ram air intake sourcing air from just above a functional front splitter (both sides-using the fog light holes in the bumper and the front splitter will have tip fences installed). Splitter is supposed to create 200-300 lbs of down force at 150mph. Splitter REQUIRES rear areo mods to not adversely effect vehicle balance. It should be a good high pressure source of cold air...
Dyno tuning (SD). Proper sized injectors (42lbs) and fuel supply mods. Fuel pressure gauge (electrical!) Wide band O2 sensors with gauge and data-logging. EGT gauge if required. It may have a wide-band connection for real time tuning while being driven at speed. (this is a bit blue sky at this time)
Proper cam and supporting parts. Fly cutting of pistons if required.
Proper quench (.032-.035). probably achieved with decking and the GM MLS gaskets.

Intake/headers/heads/air intake system/exhaust system/any joint in airflow path "port matched" to a high standard; all mandrel bends with angular changes kept to a minimum. SS 1 3/4 LTs to 3" duals, 3" spun cats, Spin Tech muffler, cutouts, 2.5" final pipes to quiet mufflers (for everyday stealth use ) cutouts open for high speed use.
Over-kill intake/exhaust for a 346 IMO. 1 7/8 headers are not available easily for the M3. I'm hoping to be able to create above ambient pressure at the rear wall of the intake at speed. It may not be much over ambient but there should be no intake restrictions in my set up. Air filtration will be sized 2-4 times what is required.

LS6 PCV system (I have both early and late style, haven't decided which one to use yet) with remote catch can.
Turn one PS pump, PS cooler.
UD front pulley set up. mechanical tensioners.
Lt weight steel SFI flywheel/SFI QuickTime bell housing. Normal T56 upgrades.

I'm seriously considering moving up to a TR6060 instead of the T56. It appears they are stronger, especially in 5th and 6th. They fit the M3 chassis better as well. Having a tranny pressure pump built in has many benefits IMO. Will have a temp gauge for tranny and rear end (single gauge switchable between the two). Coolers-pumps for both as required.

Multiple rear end ratios are available for this car. 3.91/3.64/3.46/3.38/3.23/3.15 My tranny selection will dictate which ratio I use. I'd prefer the 3.91 or 3.64 but "critical speed" of the drive-shaft might force a compromise. I only have room for a 3" DS and going 2.75 has fitment benefits. I am researching custom CF drive-shafts.

Things I'm contemplating; dedicated oil squirters for the pistons through the main journals, having rotating assembly balanced. Changing rods/pistons to aftermarket stuff. I'd rather not tear the engine down but if I have too it's not that big a thing for me. Probably worth it in the long run just to verify rod BE concentricity.
Upgraded WP, might go electric, more research required. Anyone had bad cavitation with the stock LS WP at speed for extended time?

Me, 47 years old-built my first engine (and manual tranny!) when I was 14, Professional wrench 20 + years, ASE double master automotive/machinest. My tool boxes weigh more than my M3... (and costs much much more! )
If I won the Lotto I'd still wrench on stuff; it would just be more expensive stuff. I'm not a beginner in the automotive game...

Did I miss anything important?
Any other suggestions?
Sorry for the long post. I hate posts that don't provide any info so I type accordingly...

Thanks for your time.

Rick

Doward

Absolutely recommend maximizing every cooling system - oil, transmission, differential, etc.

I suggest that if you have the power to do so, keeping the engine rpm down will make for a more reliable 150+ mph ride

Zmg00camaross

iTrader: (11)

I would say a ATI dampner with a quality timing chain with a chain dampner is a must. The Improve racing oil pan baffle would also help keep oil where it needs to be.

sixty5hellvell

iTrader: (3)

I am building a car to do the exact same thing as yours. It looks like the only thing that you could add is a dry sump oiling system. you pretty much have everything else covered.

hammertime

iTrader: (1)

- not sure why you wouldn't just run a ported FAST intake instead of a modified LS6
- I don't think you can achieve .032 - .035 quench with GM MLS gaskets, and not sure you want to push an endurance motor quite that tight no matter what gasket you run
- at 150mph+ you really don't want to manually switch your tranny and rear temp gauges back and forth
- and you definitely do not need to be tuning in real time at those speeds! Co-driver/navigator/tuner I hope...
- 3.23 gears with a .84 fifth gear put you about 5500 rpm at 150, with 180 mph potential at 6500 rpm, and hopefully limit your driveshaft speed to reasonable (stock) levels. Aftermarket seems to offer several ratios that should work.

Good luck & have fun!

vettenuts

iTrader: (4)

I second this suggestion. You might want to contact Kurt Urban for input and possibly use his steam tube setup. He was involved in a lot of the problem solving that went on when LS motors first started this type of racing.

Patrick G

iTrader: (14)

As far as valvetrain is concerned, I would look take a hint from the marine world and use cam lobes that have a serious endurance profile. Comp has the Xtreme Marine, HUC, and Thumpr hydraulic roller lobes that are super smooth and very stable for extended time periods at high rpm. Couple those lobes those with a nitrite-treated spring set, stock rockers with a trunion upgrade, then you should have a top-end with 24/7 reliability.

VandykeT/A

Would rod bolts be necessary on a 02 bottom end?

Dr Tran

iTrader: (10)

Check this article out. I'll see if I can get him to post what his new setup was going to be.

http://www.gmhightechperformance.com...ure/index.html

99Bluz28

iTrader: (35)

I'd consider better lifters with link-bars(Morel), that are more suited for continuous high rpm use.
Also take a look at a K & P Engineering Billet oil filter.

technicalninja

iTrader: (1)

I will be verifying temps at speed before adding additional cooling, all fluids will be the highest temp resisting synthetics. I will be adding cooling systems as needed. I want to keep fluid operating temps as high as possible without exceeding recommended max temps. Decreased fluid change intervals are to be expected. Keeping complexity to a minimum increases reliability in my book.
I fully agree with your thoughts regarding target RPM. The tranny I end up with may sway this as the T56 appears to be weak in 5th and 6th. I would prefer to have 5th gear at 150 mph=torque peak of engine but that may require the TR6060. I'm building for a higher speed than I actually plan to use. Good advice! thanks...


No room in the M3 for dry-sump externals. This is a street car first and foremost. If a good solution was available I'd probably lean to wards a dry sump system. The only LS M3 that I am aware of has it in the trunk! Not for me. thanks...


Fast intake-too much $ for limited gains IMO, Yep it's for sure better. I just think the cash can be better spent elsewhere. I already own the LS6 intake and should I mod it to the 90 mm T-body I will probably do it myself. There is really no budget limits here but each mod has to either be required or be "cost effective". It would be interesting to see how much pressure gain the FAST would have over the LS6 at 150 mph, I'm just not sure I want to spend 1K + to find out. If this was the final motor for this car I might have a different outlook on this matter (and I would have used AFR heads...)

I'm decking the block to restore/improve RA finish and set piston deck height. I believe the GM MLS head gaskets are strong enough for my application and an efficient use of funds. If the deck surface is perfect (engine is still together in the SS) I might spring for after-market skinnies. I'm targeting .035 quench. I'll accept .032-.039 as I am using stock hyper pistons which do not expand as much as forged. This all depends on the condition of the deck surface and the current deck height of the pistons which is unknown now.

What might you set a endurance motor's quench at?
Anyone else have suggestions on this matter?
This is the most important clearance to adjust in a build IMO.

The 150 mph+ will be on straight sections with no traffic. I agree that you should never look at the interior at that speed but some monitoring of temps is a requirement. I would prefer to have separate gauges but space is limited in the dash. I cannot imagine looking at ANY of the gauges on a road course with traffic.

Wide-band connection for REMOTE tuning! The tuner (maybe PatG if I can talk him into it) sitting in his office at his computer while I'm "pressurizing" the intake system far far away. Tuner not even in the CAR (or the county)... Much safer for tuner and maybe the only accurate way to tune SD under ram air effect without a dyno in a wind tunnel.
It's all blue sky at this point. It should be possible with today's technology.

Thanks Vettenuts, your advise is always spot on, your mention of the steam tube set up was something I missed. You altered the first post! That I what I'm looking for in this thread.

PM sent, you're gonna be involved! (I hope)

Pretty neat, mine will be a bit more street friendly than that monster. Thanks!

Oil filter is added to list, Not really a go fast mod but nice to be able to inspect/clean, No nasty fibers getting loose either. I've heard of instances of heavy "fiber" removal for the first couple of changes.
Good info, thanks!


Thanks to everyone for the advice!
Please keep it coming!

Joshhoskins

Are you going to part the rest of the camaro out? I could use a few parts.
Josh

technicalninja

iTrader: (1)

Yes I am, the entire car with the exception of the drive-train. It's a black/black leather hard top SS, 31K and was damn near perfect when a Dodge truck killed it 6 years ago. A fresh battery brought it INSTANTLY back to life much to the surprise of both me and the original owner. I bought it last year in Jan and the rear damage made replacing the fuel impossible. It lit off within 1 revolution on 5 year old gas... We were both shocked! It runs very nicely. I did change the fuel out after cutting the *** off of it with a saws-all. The old fuel was da-glo yellow in color and smelled weird!

I have a copy of the "birth certificate" and clean paperwork. I seriously contemplated fixing it but the numbers didn't add up. It took a hard strike in the driver's side rear. It has the Bilsteins,CME,chrome wheels/normal SLP stuff. Hood was stolen shortly after the accident and the spoiler was damaged in the accident.

Due to house projects I'm the better part of a month away from becoming a Camaro vulture...

I promised the original owner (a friend and OG hot-rodder himself) that I would see that as much of it got re-distributed into the enthusiast community as could be accomplished.

I will have a HUGE thread in the "for sale" section when I do. My prices will start sky high and decrease rapidly to "ultimate bargain" over a 6-8 week time frame. When I'm done I'll donate what's left to one of the active DFW members in the "pay it forward" thread. My hope is to recycle all of it with the exception of the parts destroyed by the accident. Most of it is reusable and in exceptional shape. I believe the chassis might be savable for a "back-halved" race car. It should be completely parted (and gone!) by June if I can keep on schedule.

I will not respond to PMs requesting parts until I create the sale thread.

Please don't clutter up this thread with parts requests. This is not the place for that.

Everyone will get a chance at the parts on it.

I'll see about posting some pictures of the organ donor SS and BMW recipient soon.

Thanks
Rick...

Track_FC

iTrader: (2)

Cool thread. Subscribed!

mark21742

I don't know how much room you have between the valley pan covet and the bottom of the hood, nut if it fits, you could look at the Edelbrock proflo xt....10 3/4" tall, but I absolutely love mine and you'd be looking st around $360 for the intake.
Is do hardened pushrods, the truton (sp?) upgrade to the stock rockers, a set of comp ls7 lifters with the ls2 lifters trays, melling high volume pump (10296) I think, and a pat G cam

redtan

iTrader: (5)

I would spec out the gearing so that you're in a non-OD gear at your max speed.

I would not want to be cruising at 150mph for extended periods of time at 5500rpm in a 0.84 5th gear.

technicalninja

iTrader: (1)

Sadly the stock intake gets pretty close to the hood as it sits. I like the Proflo, it has serious merit in a build and is priced appropriately. It's just too tall for my application. Somewhere down the line (I expect WAY down the line) I'd like to make a cross ram ITB set up and the Proflo might be a good starting point for the flanges at the heads.
All BMW M series cars came with ITBs from the factory with the exception of the E36 M3 which is what I have. Only the USA versions got emasculated in this manner: the euro-spec M3s were ITBs from the factory as the "Gods of Performance" intended.

I have ITB ENVY...
I probably will never be fully satisfied without having 1 throttle blade per cylinder.

Now, at the point of making molds for CF runners and going through the process of machining flanges to make this stuff work I'd want to be at the final motor for the car. Currently the motor I'd build if money was no object is a 4" stroke LS3 with the rectangular port heads.
I am planning to relocate the coils off of the VCs anyway. I'll be checking closely on just how much clearance I have for ITBs. My intended dual ram air CAI set up is designed for the ITBs and an additional "joining" plenum will be created to make it work with the single t-body the first motor will employ.
One thing that I am keeping my eyes open for is a 4 hole butterfly set up, 55-60mm bores, on 4"-5" (4.4" optimal) centers. Something from the hyper-bike world might work but most of what I've seen is too small IMO. I haven't looked very hard yet. The ITBs would change the optimal cam specs which might change the optimal CR ratio so it's not in the cards this go around.
You can run much higher duration lobes once you get the intake "pulses" separated and still have reasonable low speed drivability. It really does change everything. It also seriously changes tuning and the availability of a consistent vacuum source for brake booster and emission devices. It's just too much to jack with now. The 4K+ prices for currently available ITB stuff today is crazy. 1500 and I'd be more interested but not at 4K+.

I have quite a bit of experience running/tuning ITB Weber/Mikuni carbs on L6 Nissans.
The howl they create at full load is intoxicating...

The current LS6 intake I have should be able to support the 346 engine. I'm sort of stuck with it...
I do want to enlarge the throttle body on this build to 90mm.

Writing this response brought another missed high speed mod to mind. I may experience extended periods of time of near (or hopefully above) ambient pressure in the intake manifold. An electric vacuum assist pump will need to be added to assist the power brakes. Thanks Mark! another add to the list.

Yes to a PatG cam and maybe a tune (if he can be bribed).

I believe the HV OP can cause issues with oil starvation as it appears to be able to remove oil from the pan quicker than it can drain back during extended high speed use. If I end up fitting dedicated piston squirters the HV may well be a requirement. I recently purchased a 2K mile used HKE ported/shimmed LS6 pump that should work well with a stock oiling system.


I'd like to know why you wouldn't want to use OD gearing?
I am a bit worried about using the stock 02 SS T56 5th and 6th at high speed but only because I've seen some evidence posted of OD gear failures at elevated torque loads.
I believe the later TR6060 is strong enough for pretty much any NA engine I can create in all gears. This is probably the most expensive single change I'm contemplating at this time. If I could find a nice unit at a reasonable price I'd jump on it.
The TR6060 is set up much like the stock BMW transmission with a remote shifter and a 2 piece drive-shaft with rubber couplings. Both of these features have merit IMO.
I'd like to see GM's set up in the new ZL1 Camaro. Find out what they beefed up for it...

With the stock 3.23 ratio/25"tire diameter vehicle speed@7000 RPM (red-line) is as follows:
1st 2.66 = 58.5 (8.36/1k)
2nd 1.78 = 86.4 (12.34/1k)
3rd 1.30 = 119.6 (17.08/1k)
4th 1.00 = 155.5 (22.2/1k)
5th .74 = 210.2 (30.02/1k)
6th .50 = 311.0 (44.4/1k)
It looks like the optimal gear for my 150 mph target is 5th at approx 5K. This should be close to my torque peak and BSFC is usually lowest at torque peak.
I am considering fuel economy at high cruise.

Other interesting numbers with the stock 3.23 rear end:
0-60 will not require a gear change.
1/4 mile run only has 2 shifts. I'm not expecting a bracket car here. The M3 is a neat car but I do not expect it to match a properly set up F-body at the Motorplex.
Steady state cruise in 6th at 65MPH = 1460 rpm.
Down shift to second at that speed followed by WOT may be able to break the tires loose.
I'm looking forward to testing this...

I am limited to a 255 section width tire by the body which I don't want to flare/modify. Running the stock gear should help with low speed traction issues.

Well as usually I type too much.
Have a good evening and thanks again for the replies
Rick

chrisfrost

iTrader: (8)

From what I've read about HV oil pumps on here concerning oil starvation was a problem in high speed cornering and there are after-market windage trays that can help as well . +1 for the second post concerning t-chain dampener ,,,,,,,t-chains can and do break with extended rpm's in the 2500-4000 range which may not be where You're engine will spend alot of time but if it does ,,,,,,,,dampener for sure . What about suspension and brakes ?

mark21742

Another thing you might want to think about is doing something like what I did with the brakes....on my 04 GTO I went with a Willwood manual master cylinder, 14" 2011 slotted and drilled rotors all around, 4 piston calipers up front and 2 piston calipers in the back....requires a little more pedal effort, but not much.

The Edelbrock intake is very under rated and really helped broaden my powerband and made my engine a lot more streetable. It would be a good base for ITBs

redtan

iTrader: (5)

You'd be putting considerably more load and stress on the engine and transmission.

If both of them were built and extremely well cooled, that would not be a problem. But you're running a stock bottom end engine with a stock T56 and don't see anything in terms of cooling, both radiator and tranny cooler.

Without those at the very least, this ain't going to be a reliable combo for many many hours of extended high rpm use as you intend it to be.