View Full Version : Lookin for some engine build help


el33tprodigy
04-17-2012, 05:18 PM
I am looking basically completely redo my engine in my 98 camaro.
I just had it dyno tuned today and put out an unimpressive 351 hp.... Looking to go atleast another 100 or so horse ... I want something that will still be able to be street driven but nasty in the same aspect. Im Looking to replace the exhaust thats on... It currently has headers but don't think they are great ones.. Whats some good ones to go with?
I'm going to have a magnaflow exhaust put on... Might even go 3 inch exhaust pipe all the way back gotta take it to the exhaust guy and make sure he can do it first.

Now I know there is a very mild cam in it. Looking to change that probably different intake and different heads but looking at different ways to go to reach this... Right now looking in the neighborhood of maybe spending 2500 or 3000 with flexibility for more or less. Thats just for the engine build i'm not including the exhaust in that setup that i will have a seperate budget for.
Current mods are slp lid/K&N Air filter/egr block off/headders not sure which ones, lowered 2.5 inches/ subframe connectors/ its also an automatic trans.... Not sure of any of the other mods. I was told there is some free mods i could do yet but i know that won't get me close to the numbers i'd like to see so i'm looking for some major mods that will make a big difference.

el33tprodigy
04-17-2012, 05:50 PM
So far what i'm thinking would be
FAST 102mm LSXr Intake Manifold
Not sure on cam yet or heads looking for some pointers... Would it be better to get different heads or would porting the stock ones be better? Which would give the best results for the buck?
Also any reccomendations on what to do on the bottom end if much at all?

BirdsSince16
04-17-2012, 06:11 PM
If you're only shooting for 100hp or so above what you have, an LS6 Intake should do just fine, and will cost about 1/4 the FAST. A 228r cam or something similar with a 3800 stall or so with ported 243 heads (by TEA or AI) and a good dyno tune should get you close to 450hp with plenty of street manners.

BirdsSince16
04-17-2012, 06:12 PM
And your bottom end should be fine unless you've seen any problems or you have like a million miles on it. Just be sure to replace the whole valvetrain with your cam.

el33tprodigy
04-17-2012, 06:22 PM
Honestly the latest build has around 15k miles on it.. Just i didn't do it or have it done bought it that way I mean if i can get better numbers honestly i'd shoot for even better numbers... I had a car that was 423 at the wheels in an LT1 and it was radical but would have loved if it had even more. If i can get more hp for that amount of money shoot me some numbers if i could reach over 500 that would be even better yet. This is my first ls1 so i'm not familar with actual hp numbers yet that can be achieved on a good build... I wasn't impressed with what i put at the dyno today and that was 351.

Z28SteveA4
04-17-2012, 07:28 PM
i dont agree with the above statement fully. To reach 450 hp you need to get rid of that ls6 intake for a fast and you need to go with a tad bit bigger of a cam then a 228. I would look in the mid 230's duration and lower .600's for lift. For heads you can go with some nicely ported ls6 heads from tea or ai and you will be fine. For headers either kooks or american racing headers is the way to go. For a stall i would do around a 3600-4000 stall with some 3.73's in the rear. With what i said above you should be right around that 450 maybe a tad bit less like 440ish mark remember though dyno are tuning tools not for numbers. on top of that its harder for an auto car to hit the big numbers like 6 speed cars. good luck with the build

el33tprodigy
04-18-2012, 08:08 AM
Any particular brand of cam that is better in that area? and why the ls6 heads is it price or what?

el33tprodigy
04-18-2012, 08:55 AM
Texas Speed Magic Stick 4 239/242 .649"/.609" Camshaft

I was looking at this cam is why i ask if any particular brand is better than others...Let me know what you think,

I also don't want you to think im asking questions to second guess just becuase i want to learn why one is better than other and benefits and what not thats how i learn the quickest.

bww3588
04-18-2012, 09:03 AM
Texas Speed Magic Stick 4 239/242 .649"/.609" Camshaft

I was looking at this cam is why i ask if any particular brand is better than others...Let me know what you think,

I also don't want you to think im asking questions to second guess just becuase i want to learn why one is better than other and benefits and what not thats how i learn the quickest.

The MS4 is a very peaky cam. There are better cams out there now that offer more low to mid range power as well as peak power.

I live in Lima as well...if your looking to learn a few things or want some help with the car, PM me n we will meet up sometime.

KCS
04-18-2012, 09:19 AM
There is a dyno results sub forum. You should be able to get some ideas from there.

batboy
04-18-2012, 10:07 AM
Trying to get 450 RWHP is going to be a challenge with a LS1 and a small budget while retaining driveability. I agree with Z28Steve, you will need cam, heads, and FAST intake.

If your existing headers are long tube, they're propably ok. Look at some of the heads and cam kits that Texas Speed has, the stage 2.5 LS6 heads are good performers, but for a little less cash the ported 5.3 heads are a good bang for the buck.

For cam, I would shy away from the MS4, that's really high lift and can sometimes have PTV clearance issues. The Torquer V2 would be a nice compromise, but you might fall short of your dyno goal.

But, add a higher stall converter and beat manual shift cars with more hp. Also, don't forget to budget a tune in addition to everything else. I suspect you will significantly go over your $2500 to $3000 goal.

el33tprodigy
04-18-2012, 10:34 AM
Well I wasn't looking at 2500 to 3000 as my total goal just as a starting point. I already have a seperate budget for my tune...I am trying to figure out how big of a budget i need just for the main part which is engine..
Honestly i know by taking the engine out myself i can probably save a lot most of it i can do except for a few things which i can take it to a machine shop to have done. and then i can drop it back in myself. I have done this in the past with lt1's ... Last lt1 i spent 12k on and never dynod it but i had an lt1 i spent around 10k on i had at 423 at the wheels.. With the ls1 being a better engine i would think i could probably get to a good point with this as well in the same vicinity. I forgot to mention those lt1s also had a lot more work beyond engines to get that much spent on them.
Exhaust and tune budget are completely seperate.

Burken01
04-18-2012, 11:13 AM
Well with a MS4 cam you'll have to really rev your rpm's up there to get into that cams powerband.. But a nice custom cam in the 226-228 area will pull great from a dead stop, and street light to street light.. If your going to daily drive your car like I do, then a max effort cam is pointless for daily driving because you can't take advantage of what it was built for..

And don't get to hung up on numbers, A properly setup 420 hp would win in a race against an inproperly setup 450 hp.. it happens all the time, match your gears and stall to the head/cam you pick for your goal..

I highly recomend a custom cam, its only like $20 bucks and they take everything you have into consideration..

PREDATOR-Z
04-18-2012, 12:06 PM
The trick is to put your $$ where it counts the most and that is in the heads.
Great heads with a poor cam will still make impressive numbers.

BIG_MIKE2005
04-18-2012, 12:25 PM
The trick is to put your $$ where it counts the most and that is in the heads.
Great heads with a poor cam will still make impressive numbers.

Listen to this guy, he knows his shit.

ScottyBG
04-18-2012, 12:29 PM
I would recommend a head and cam package from the same vendor, so they are well matched. Alternatively get some cam recomendations from your head vendor of choice. There are matched packages from TSP, Trick flow, Advanced Induction etc. With an A4, 450 rwhp is a reasonable goal, 500 is possible, but very very few cars will ever hit that without a power adder, on the stock short block through an auto. You will need a well matched combo to do an honest 450 at the wheels. The A4 numbers will come in at least 20-30 hp below a stick car, as a result of converter, and pumping losses.

shawnramair
04-18-2012, 01:19 PM
im looking to go with heads and cams also i have a 98 trans am ls1 a friend told me that
an ls6 cam and port my 241 heads and leave my ls6 intake on and it should get me around 80 hp looking to get some info on doing and looking for a good strong cam no to aggressive
something with a good lope and a good lift but street able thanks

el33tprodigy
04-18-2012, 02:50 PM
What would be your reccomendation for heads then predator?

PREDATOR-Z
04-19-2012, 02:53 AM
There are a few choices mainly either ported 243/799 castings or aftermarket like AFR/TFS to name a couple.
For stock castings there are 2 suppliers that I've dealt with and that IMO stood above the rest in quality and performance gained:
Cartek 4X
AI 226cc
Of course there are disappointments as well but my main lesson in all this is to avoid marketing ploys. All in all, a budget head is just that, budget, hence budget performance.

In after market, TFS as cast is a good bang for bucks, I had mine worked on by TEA with only guides replaced so I could use stock rockers safely.
Best street combo I've done (throttle response) was with AFR 205 milled to 62cc and a variation of T. Mamo 224/228 cam.

el33tprodigy
04-19-2012, 10:30 AM
Honestly I don't mind putting the money into the car I just want to see the results if you know what I mean... Since i'm unfamilar with the LS1 engine i don't know what to go with for the best performance. Money isn't a huge factor i can break the budget and not worry too much about it.. But i still want a streetable car if you know what i'm saying... I know all in all I will probably spend atleast 12k or more on this car with new paint job new hood and engine and maybe rear end.

Burken01
04-19-2012, 10:54 AM
another option is to get some 243 heads and instead of porting them just get a nice valve job and bowl blend and a little milling.. think i got a quote for (300-400) ish for a very reputable shop to do that...

And get a custom cam like I did which was a 227/230 .614/.609 111+2 lsa which is a healthy sized cam for the street..

I never got it running as I went a diff direction, but that cam and stock 243 heads on somebody's car on here made 410hp/390tq

and with the heads worked over a little (valve job/bowl blend/milling for CR) you realistically could be in the 425-430 range depending on your tuner.. and with the above you won't break the bank like you will with aftermarket.. and Trickflows are great, I had the 215 trickflow heads, but now your talking about $2,000+ heads which might only make 15-20 HP over the above said combo.

But then you get to take that added savings and put it towards a rear end a built tranny or wherever else you need it.

Burken01
04-19-2012, 10:58 AM
450 will be hard to make on a A4, Those TSP packages are hard to beat as well. Plus they come assembled (less downtime) and you can swap them on in a day or two.

el33tprodigy
04-19-2012, 11:08 AM
I been looking at texas speed.. Debating on calling them and talking to them or what.. They offer so many different packages hard to figure out which one would be the best.

Burken01
04-19-2012, 11:19 AM
well it's all about $$$$, that's with everything...

there stg1, stg 2.5 ls6 heads (243 casting) are diff in price because the 2.5 has larger valves installed and even bigger valves for the stg 3..

the 5.3 heads are truck heads which work great as well, there is a big debate on the ported 5.3 heads vs ported ls6 heads... form you own opinion by searching and reading and that's my advice on that..

just give them a call, they always take the time to sit down and talk to you and ask away, tell them your goals and setup..

el33tprodigy
04-19-2012, 11:40 AM
If i opted to go with the ls6 intake instead of the fast 102 would i notice a huge difference?

Burken01
04-19-2012, 11:47 AM
IMHO since you've never had a H/C ls1 with the 102 you'll never know what your missing, In actual real life you could be missing 15-20 hp from it, but you get to save 1,200+ $$

Don't get me wrong I'm not trying to lure you away of buying the fast 102 or anything else you have mentioned, I've just been in your shoes and you have to look at your budget and realistic goals.

sure 450 hp is nice, but in reality it will take the Fast 102, 1 7/8 headers, aftermarket heads with a healthy cam to really max out the NA Ls1 engine..

just food for thought.

el33tprodigy
04-19-2012, 11:50 AM
see my thinking is i already am at 351 at the wheels and thats with just headders and i'm not sure what ones can't tell just tried looking to figure that out but can't tell. And a cam. Not sure of cam which is what also sucks. I don't mind dumping the money into it just not wastefully is what i'm getting at i guess. I just don't want to go with the fast 102 and spend the 1200 plus if i'm going to be disappointed by it.

Burken01
04-19-2012, 11:56 AM
well you won't be dissapointed with the fast 102 itself, it performs great and makes power especially if you have H/C and long tube headers.. But If you can live with 415+ HP then you can put a down payment on a rear end with the $1,500. My opinion though.

Your not wating $$ anyway, you could buy it and run it for a couple months and if you don't like it put it up for sale on here and you could easily get $1,200+ for it.

quik95lt1
04-19-2012, 12:30 PM
easy.......
have Advanced Induction port your stock heads....
http://advancedinduction.com/LSX/AiLSxHCRGMLS1Head.php

run one of their HR cam's with it.....email and tell them u want 450rwhp and phil will spec you a cam to do it.......its more than possible to make that power........prob be looking in the 234/242 .631/.631 112lsa cam range....

im making 422rwhp with a AI 224/236 grind on a very mild lobe 112+2 LSA....idles at 800rpm i drive it daily.....its otherwise a stock LS2 with an old unported FAST90 intake and stock tb......

as for the intake you cant beat the FAST but a well ported LS6 should be able to net you your results....

el33tprodigy
04-19-2012, 01:13 PM
After getting off the phone with Texas Speed he suggested the Precision stage 2.5 ls6 heads and cam package which runs 1979.99
the precision 3800 stall which runs 799.99
an ls6 intake 599.99

which will put me around 3400 in parts. not counting gaskets yet. Or porting of the ls6 intake. I'll have to look into that option that you just mentioned with advanced induction..

el33tprodigy
04-19-2012, 01:50 PM
I sent advanced induction an email and they literally responded within minutes of just a link to their other stuff on their website... Hmmm lol was looking for an actual response back more so than that.

el33tprodigy
04-19-2012, 02:43 PM
I managed to find this cam on their page though
Ai 234 / 242 - .631" / .631"◦
◦112 LSA - Typical P2V ~.063" / .062"


Think this would be about the right direction to go in?

Burken01
04-19-2012, 02:49 PM
first thing is dont spend 600 on a ls6 intake, get one used in the classifieds for 300 (you can find them all the time)

theres no proof in porting the ls6 intake to make any gains, thats why you dont see alot of them being ported.

and that cam ^^ above is big, it will require some hefty springs like the PRC .675 springs.

quik95lt1
04-19-2012, 03:12 PM
I managed to find this cam on their page though
Ai 234 / 242 - .631" / .631"◦
◦112 LSA - Typical P2V ~.063" / .062"


Think this would be about the right direction to go in?

yes ......im sure Phil will answer you better when he gets a chance....


and that cam ^^ above is big, it will require some hefty springs like the PRC .675 springs.

^ impossible for you to accuratly say that......you do not know the design of the lobe nor the agressivness of the lobe (ie. acceleration/speed/jerk)....so its impossible for you to say that espically not knowing the valve side mass of the valvetrain being used........the cam will require more than the standard style beehive but it is far from requiring "hefty" springs......

el33tprodigy
04-19-2012, 06:13 PM
They can point me in the right direction for springs or even have them on the heads at their shop correct? Im not opposed to using different springs if thats what it takes. Just want them done right is all i'm looking at. I like big cams lol i had a 95 z28 i had a big cam in it loved the way it rumbled lol.

quik95lt1
04-19-2012, 11:22 PM
They can point me in the right direction for springs or even have them on the heads at their shop correct? Im not opposed to using different springs if thats what it takes. Just want them done right is all i'm looking at. I like big cams lol i had a 95 z28 i had a big cam in it loved the way it rumbled lol.

Oh yea I hear ya lol...my 95 Z is sporting over. 700 lift that rumbles a bit too lol......and yes they can tell u everything