Generation III Internal Engine - Found these in oil drain magnet???




TomXTC
05-01-2012, 08:39 PM
I changed the oil in my 98 TA WS6 today and these were attached to the magnetic oil pan drain plug. These are all magnatized in that they will stick to each other magnetically too. Any idea what these are? I want to know what I need to fix and how serious it is. Thanks to anyone that can help. They are next to a domino to show size, I can measure more specifically if necessary.


batboy
05-01-2012, 08:42 PM
You had a rocker arm trunion puke.

GoatPilot87
05-01-2012, 08:48 PM
Yep..gotta love un-caged needle bearings. Long as you can get them all out and they havent damaged anything yet youll be ok. I just replaced all mine with Comps trunion upgrade kit. It was like $135 and I ordered the install tool kit from Summit instead of doing it the socket way. NO hammer involved and was a hell of a lot faster. Easy as pie too, a monkey could do it.


TomXTC
05-01-2012, 08:52 PM
I will accept your diagnosis. I heard what sounded like a lifter tick for a second that went away, makes sense. I just emailed the head of the GM LS1 design team with the same question. How big a risk to drive it to where the shop is to get it fixed or is this just a time bomb that has no answer? I appreciate your help as I was surprised as the motor only has 38K miles and was running fine save for that tick that went away very quickly. Obviously I don't want to have this become a bigger issue but have to drive it to get to where it can be worked on. Also is this common and is there an upgrade to prevent it from happening to some other or just one of those things?

Thanks Much,
Tom

TomXTC
05-01-2012, 08:55 PM
Yep..gotta love un-caged needle bearings. Long as you can get them all out and they havent damaged anything yet youll be ok. I just replaced all mine with Comps trunion upgrade kit. It was like $135 and I ordered the install tool kit from Summit instead of doing it the socket way. NO hammer involved and was a hell of a lot faster. Easy as pie too, a monkey could do it.

Cheap and will prevent it from happening again. Sounds great and answers my question. Thanks to you both. I will get that kit from Summit. I assume I can count how many I have and how many are missing to see if there are any left in the motor. Good they are magnetic and wanted to stick to the drain pan plug.

I am putting an HID kit on my motorcycle or I could just not drive the car at all. I do have to get it somewhere it can be worked on though. It runs perfect but I feel like I should not drive it until fixed obviously.

Darkman
05-01-2012, 08:56 PM
I would not drive it even though the odds are pretty good that it would make it to a shop.

batboy
05-01-2012, 08:59 PM
I would not drive it.

TomXTC
05-01-2012, 09:02 PM
I am sure it is a bad idea to drive it, I just had to ask the obvious. I really do appreciate the help with the diagnosis and the upgrade kit to prevent it from happening again. I will see if there is a way to count what I have found and if not then not sure how to ensure there are no more of these floating around to cause potential damage.

butler
05-01-2012, 09:37 PM
I drove mine. Changed the oil and found the same thing. The needle bearings can't get through the pickup screen, the holes are too small.

TomXTC
05-01-2012, 09:50 PM
Yep..gotta love un-caged needle bearings. Long as you can get them all out and they havent damaged anything yet youll be ok. I just replaced all mine with Comps trunion upgrade kit. It was like $135 and I ordered the install tool kit from Summit instead of doing it the socket way. NO hammer involved and was a hell of a lot faster. Easy as pie too, a monkey could do it.

I emailed Summit and they could not answer...said call back tomorrow. Does that upgrade kit contain replacements for all of them? It only shows one in the photo. Seems like a good idea to fix them all so it does not happen again. Glad I have not put a Procharger on it yet. Thanks much., T

TomXTC
05-01-2012, 09:51 PM
I drove mine. Changed the oil and found the same thing. The needle bearings can't get through the pickup screen, the holes are too small.

My worry is that more of the bearings will become dislodged. Finding them all and not having them circulate is a secondary problem. It could not have happened at a worse time...of course.

ScottyBG
05-01-2012, 11:00 PM
Per your question about doing them all, the upgrade kit does a full set of rocker arms. It has 32 of the caged bearings. There are quite a few videos online you can find that show you the proceedure.

Techno Duck
05-01-2012, 11:43 PM
Easy to do yourself with just two sockets and a bench vice :).

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v120/TechnoDuck/My%201988%20Porsche%20944%20Turbo/LS1%20Swap/IMG_0018.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v120/TechnoDuck/My%201988%20Porsche%20944%20Turbo/LS1%20Swap/IMG_0019.jpg

One side (8) took me about an hour and a half.. its really easy once you do the first one and get the procedure down.

TomXTC
05-02-2012, 12:10 AM
Per your question about doing them all, the upgrade kit does a full set of rocker arms. It has 32 of the caged bearings. There are quite a few videos online you can find that show you the proceedure.

Ok thanks much for everyone's help. I will go get those and get the things fixed for good. I live near Seattle so we are still having some rain but hope to be out on the motorcycle soon. I guess things could have been worse.

batboy
05-02-2012, 06:26 AM
If you don't want to do the trunion upgrade yourself, Texas Speed has a set of rockers already done.

GoatPilot87
05-02-2012, 08:21 AM
The socket way is easy and very doable, I just liked the idea of doing it with a precision fixture as I dont want to get one cocked. The tool kit is relatively cheap and comes with instructions. Heres the PN from Summit>> SME-906011 and only $39.99. The Comp PN for the trunion kit is 13702-KIT and a LOT of our vendors on here sell them for around $140. Hinson Supercars was runnign a special for $199 installed when you sent them your rockers but I dont know if they still are. Try a search for them.

VandykeT/A
05-02-2012, 08:45 AM
I did mine in my living room floor on some cardboard with a 8" C clamp and some sockets. It was a bitch to keep straight but nothing major.

badazz81z28
05-02-2012, 09:05 AM
If you don't want to do the trunion upgrade yourself, Texas Speed has a set of rockers already done.

They do, but a little expensive for me. If you go that route I would just buy full rollers.

TSP rockers are $400

TomXTC
05-02-2012, 11:21 AM
The socket way is easy and very doable, I just liked the idea of doing it with a precision fixture as I dont want to get one cocked. The tool kit is relatively cheap and comes with instructions. Heres the PN from Summit>> SME-906011 and only $39.99. The Comp PN for the trunion kit is 13702-KIT and a LOT of our vendors on here sell them for around $140. Hinson Supercars was runnign a special for $199 installed when you sent them your rockers but I dont know if they still are. Try a search for them.

Thanks for the tip, and BatBoy too. I watched the video from Comp Cams on the install and it looks simple. On the other hand if they are the same price installed, assuming I bought the installation tool, it is worth checking out. This is my daily driver so getting it fixed fast is important. Seems this is a common issue, my car is a bone stock 98 TA WS6 with 38K miles, so no increased stress due to power add ons etc.. As long as none of those damage anything I will be ok. I will try to account for or find as many of the loose ones as I can and hope to get them all. Good to have found out what it was and that there was an inexpensive fix. Last oil change was 4K miles ago and I only heard an odd slight noise in a valve I had never heard before just recently, then the sound went away.. I am guessing that is when this happened, not long ago. I will do the searches and get a replacement set ordered today from one of the companies, assembled if I can find some for the same amount of money.
I am waiting for a reply from the member of the LS1 design team I know who I scolded for my having to go through this.

Glad so many of you knew what those were so quick. BIG HELP. And the alternatives for the fix too. Makes a rotten event easier to deal with.

TomXTC
05-02-2012, 11:31 AM
They do, but a little expensive for me. If you go that route I would just buy full rollers.

TSP rockers are $400

I did see some more complete sets, and having roller tips as well as roller fulcrums etc.. I have not decided if it is going to stay stock as it is now or if I will go with the Procharger and various mods. If I stay stock I would stick with just the upgraded bearings. If not then the money for the roller rockers might make more sense. In either case I will be glad to get the new caged bearings installed and hope all else is good and stays that way.

GoatPilot87
05-02-2012, 12:51 PM
That's what I was thinking I was gonna go roller. I've seen a lot of big power builds use stock, upgraded rockers with the Comp kit and never have issues. That's not to say they can't fail either but I've seen TONS of shattered/broken aftermarket aluminum roller rockers...just Google broken ls1 roller rocker lol. And from what I've been told the stock, upgraded ones are lighter on the valve than the aluminum ones but that's just what I've been told when I was researching which way I wanted to go.

427LS7HCI
05-02-2012, 12:56 PM
Rocker arm failure

ZeeOSix
05-02-2012, 01:02 PM
I assume I can count how many I have and how many are missing to see if there are any left in the motor.

Yes, when you put the Trunnion Kit in, count the number of needle bearings in one of the OEM bearing assemblies. I believe (if I recall correctly), that the stock bearings have 33 needles in each bearing assy (2 bearing assys per rocker arm = 66 total needles per rocker arm). So determine how many bearings have failed, and then figure out how many could have fell out and compare to how many you have found.

TomXTC
05-03-2012, 12:50 AM
That's what I was thinking I was gonna go roller. I've seen a lot of big power builds use stock, upgraded rockers with the Comp kit and never have issues. That's not to say they can't fail either but I've seen TONS of shattered/broken aftermarket aluminum roller rockers...just Google broken ls1 roller rocker lol. And from what I've been told the stock, upgraded ones are lighter on the valve than the aluminum ones but that's just what I've been told when I was researching which way I wanted to go.

This is what the GM LS1 engineer had to say about their use of non-roller tip rockers on the LS1 if anyone is interested...

"GM Engineering looks at roller tips on the rockers as poor engineering. 1. You only use a small part of the roller. The rest is heavy and is extra weight on the valve train. 2. As a roller tip gets some miles on it, the roller axle starts to wear an egg shaped hole in the roller and it takes a set. IOW, the roller starts to slide back and forth over the valve tip instead of rolling. This contributes to valve guide wear. When roller tips are new, they work great but they suck when they get old.

The stock rocker tip has a 0.62" radius and it both slides and rolls across the valve tip. GM has an optimization program that optimizes the geometry so that slide is minimized and roll is maximized. It says a lot about the LS engine when you realize the valve train is net build. (non-adjustable) With all those components, there is no adjustment. You bolt everything down and you're there. Not so with the old SB. 20 years ago, you would have been called crazy to try building a net-build valve train. It couldn't be done without hand selecting matched components. The machines used to manufacture the LS parts are new and work so much better than the old SB machines."

TomXTC
05-03-2012, 02:47 PM
The socket way is easy and very doable, I just liked the idea of doing it with a precision fixture as I dont want to get one cocked. The tool kit is relatively cheap and comes with instructions. Heres the PN from Summit>> SME-906011 and only $39.99. The Comp PN for the trunion kit is 13702-KIT and a LOT of our vendors on here sell them for around $140. Hinson Supercars was runnign a special for $199 installed when you sent them your rockers but I dont know if they still are. Try a search for them.

I checked the various options and just wanted to mention that the deal to send your rockers in to have the new caged bearings replaced for 199 from Hinson is still going on. It is raining up here in the Seattle area and I don't have a good place to work on my vehicles, I don't even have room to store all of them, so will order the replacement bearings from Comp Cams and get the tool from Summit since it is so inexpensive and try to not drive the car and hope I can find all the missing bearings however many I find out are not still in the bearing race. If indeed the oil pickup screen will not allow them to circulate that would be very good. I am worried about them getting anywhere I can't find them, hoping they are inside the valve covers or somewhere visible if I have to take the pan off.

Thanks again to all that helped me out on this one. It is very much appreciated. T

GoatPilot87
05-03-2012, 03:36 PM
Welcome dude. Ive got some "know it all" people I work with that crucified me for spending the little bit of money on the rocker upgrade but guys like you unfortunately proved my theory...CHEAP INSURANCE. Good luck man if you for somehow need help putting the rockers together PM me and ill do what I can but like i said just follow instructions the first few and its a fly by after that. When your done youll look at them and say "damn...that was it?" and wonder why so many people on here send theirs out to be done.And you can always sell the tool to someone on here to get your $40 back or keep it and do them for friends, or members on here for some extra $$. Good luck! Post back when your done.

TomXTC
05-03-2012, 04:41 PM
Welcome dude. Ive got some "know it all" people I work with that crucified me for spending the little bit of money on the rocker upgrade but guys like you unfortunately proved my theory...CHEAP INSURANCE. Good luck man if you for somehow need help putting the rockers together PM me and ill do what I can but like i said just follow instructions the first few and its a fly by after that. When your done youll look at them and say "damn...that was it?" and wonder why so many people on here send theirs out to be done.And you can always sell the tool to someone on here to get your $40 back or keep it and do them for friends, or members on here for some extra $$. Good luck! Post back when your done.

Thanks very much. I did not even know this was an issue until it happened to me. Had I known I might have done it in advance. My motor is stock, low miles, well maintained and only occasionally driven really hard. So it is not as if I had done mods and added extra stress to the valve train. I took a look at my motor and the videos and it all looks easy enough. My biggest issue is having a lack of space to work on my vehicles. Nowhere flat to jack it up and being undercover. I am hoping for a break in the rain to get it done soon. I am going to go print out the All Data manual for the car at the local library for free which I had planned anyway. Need to know the torque spec for the bolts for one thing. I think it is 22lbs but that was for upgraded rockers so want to make sure I do it correctly. Finding all the missing bearings may likely be more difficult that doing the bearing upgrade which, especially using that tool seems pretty simple. I watched the video, though they were using a hydraulic press but it does not look like a big job or require indexing a new cam or require special tools or anything too bad. Just came at a bad time. I will PM you if I have any questions though and appreciate the offer. If nothing else when I am done. Thanks much!

Gray86hatch
05-03-2012, 07:09 PM
The comp trunion kits I was buying last year came with two washers to install the bearings.

I would not pay $40 for a install tool. all you need it what they should be including in the kit.

with a small arbor press I could install a complete kit in less than 1 hour.

Tim

TomXTC
06-18-2012, 04:35 PM
You had a rocker arm trunion puke.

Well it was a good guess. And I am not sorry I am upgrading with the Comp Cams trunion bearing kit. BUT all the rocker arm bearings were intact, though some a bit loose so this will prevent that. What I did find was that two of the rocker arms have worn so two new rocker arms and push rods and two knew lifters since those are the bearings that I have found. Hopefully the cam lobes won't have been messed up.

Just thought I would post this for anyone else that has this issue. I can see if I can post the trunion needle bearings and the lifter bearings to show the difference which may help someone else identify them by size etc.. I thought taking the pic with the Domino as a size reference was sufficient but have to think there is a difference I can show with a tape measure or side by side etc.

Still appreciate all the help and still doing the trunion bearings, just not good new since it hurts financially although it is a darn good thing to get fixed and a great time to do it otherwise.

Krom
06-18-2012, 04:45 PM
If those came from the lifter, I cant imagine the cam is any good

TomXTC
06-18-2012, 05:04 PM
If those came from the lifter, I cant imagine the cam is any good

Well I certainly hope you are wrong. If circumstances were different I would consider using this as the time to add that GM cam that adds 45HP alone. But as funds are limited I don't think I can afford that. But will find out soon after I get the intake off and check things out. Already have someone looking for a couple new lifters and rocker arms and push rods. It is at least fortunate that I happen to be doing this at my friends shop who is a profession mechanic and helping me out with some of this. He has come across this before in an 8.1L motor and we will check out the cam.

So my hope is that I don't have to change the cam, though if I do and the money is even possible as well as the time he will allow me to take up a bay here, I could fix it and add some power. Otherwise I would just like others that have found these to consider the alternative and/or know about the difference in the way the bearings look or are sized. I sure had no idea which is why I made this post. I ran it by one of the LS1's original GM design engineers and he did not tell me I was wrong about the diagnosis so I assume the answer was the most common but perhaps it could let someone know there is another issue possible also.

In my opinion I think those trunion bearings should be upgraded anyway since it seems enough people have issues and the kit is cheap and relatively easy. If it is the lifter bearings then you will have to have done the same assembly already so you are not wasting time or money by doing the trunion grade but if you get there and there are no missing needle bearings this is probably it, so be prepared. If the cam is damaged then perhaps it might be a good time to install that cam or other valve train parts you were thinking about, or intake etc. as long as they are off. Just trying to share my misery to help someone else out if possible. I do appreciate these threads and everyones helping me with my motor issues though. It is a great forum to have.