Injector Comparison - BOSCH - FIC version - ID version
05-19-2012, 12:25 PM
#1
TECH Resident
Thread Starter
iTrader: (17)
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: NC - Charlotte area
Posts: 3,747
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Injector Comparison - BOSCH - FIC version - ID version **NOTE : IDs are DIFFERENT part numbers, BUT yes generally speaking they are nearly the SAME BOSCH injector
*The cores are different, but BOTH are made from the same part number
On the 1000cc FIC uses the SAME part number.
On the 725 FIC uses a different pn. On the 850 same part and 2000 same part I cannot tell what Bosch PN the IDs are but these flow slightly different than each other
A LONG time ago when I was first going into forced induction, I wanted injectors that would give me some breathing room as at the time I was not very knowledgeable about all of my fueling needs and wanted to ensure I had enough. I ended up going through what it seems like everyone came across at that time and I selected 60# injectors to run with my base STS kit and my stock LS1. I had no injector data besides calculating my IFR values.
So I got the car all put together and the 60# injectors in and I flashed the car with the correct IFR and tune that I had put together getting ready for all of this. I cranked the car up and in Open Loop it ran rich for a little like normal and then heated up to closed loop and I noticed it was still rich. During idle, all I could run was rich 11.5:1; however during driving conditions, all was fine. I spent countless hours messing with it, trying to find a solution to no avail. I had no idea at the time, and even had help from people on ls1tech, still no solution. I was simply told to buy other injectors, or swap to smaller injectors.
So I read around and sold my 60# injectors and did some research and ran into Injector Dynamics and all of the write ups. Thinking these would solve all of my problems as all tuning data was provided, but heavily disliking the price compared to all other injectors of the same size. Wanting a fix I purchased them and all was fine, all problems were gone.
Pictures of ID Injectors:
Some things I noticed with them upon looking at the injector is that you can tell the part numbers have been taken off with a dremel.
I had the opportunity to own and use the ID725 injectors for quite some time now, and for some notes when I installed them, I had two O-rings that I had to replace as they didn't fit snug enough and leaked fuel, that getting fixed all was ok.
Now knowing what I know, I would have never bought those injectors, and I would have purchased the ones I have now, FIC725s. These are 69.56# injectors @ 43.5psi and I have all the data to properly tune them as well, they would have saved me some $$. FIC also included the clips to hold the top adapter piece to the injector.
I got the FIC725s and upon installation all of the O-rings were a nice snug fit, even had to put some elbow grease into a few of them to get them in. Absolutely no issues with them, they behaved equivalent to the ID injectors. The ID injectors were actually slightly smaller than the FIC injectors. ID flowed 725, FIC flowed closer to 732.
Pictures of FIC725s:
BOTH COMPARED:
ALSO,
the tuning data is slightly different for these as seen below, but the values WITHIN operating range of a typical vehicle are damn near identical.
ID OFFSET TABLE
FIC OFFSET TABLE
*The cores are different, but BOTH are made from the same part number
On the 1000cc FIC uses the SAME part number.
On the 725 FIC uses a different pn. On the 850 same part and 2000 same part I cannot tell what Bosch PN the IDs are but these flow slightly different than each other
A LONG time ago when I was first going into forced induction, I wanted injectors that would give me some breathing room as at the time I was not very knowledgeable about all of my fueling needs and wanted to ensure I had enough. I ended up going through what it seems like everyone came across at that time and I selected 60# injectors to run with my base STS kit and my stock LS1. I had no injector data besides calculating my IFR values.
So I got the car all put together and the 60# injectors in and I flashed the car with the correct IFR and tune that I had put together getting ready for all of this. I cranked the car up and in Open Loop it ran rich for a little like normal and then heated up to closed loop and I noticed it was still rich. During idle, all I could run was rich 11.5:1; however during driving conditions, all was fine. I spent countless hours messing with it, trying to find a solution to no avail. I had no idea at the time, and even had help from people on ls1tech, still no solution. I was simply told to buy other injectors, or swap to smaller injectors.
So I read around and sold my 60# injectors and did some research and ran into Injector Dynamics and all of the write ups. Thinking these would solve all of my problems as all tuning data was provided, but heavily disliking the price compared to all other injectors of the same size. Wanting a fix I purchased them and all was fine, all problems were gone.
Pictures of ID Injectors:
Some things I noticed with them upon looking at the injector is that you can tell the part numbers have been taken off with a dremel.
I had the opportunity to own and use the ID725 injectors for quite some time now, and for some notes when I installed them, I had two O-rings that I had to replace as they didn't fit snug enough and leaked fuel, that getting fixed all was ok.
Now knowing what I know, I would have never bought those injectors, and I would have purchased the ones I have now, FIC725s. These are 69.56# injectors @ 43.5psi and I have all the data to properly tune them as well, they would have saved me some $$. FIC also included the clips to hold the top adapter piece to the injector.
I got the FIC725s and upon installation all of the O-rings were a nice snug fit, even had to put some elbow grease into a few of them to get them in. Absolutely no issues with them, they behaved equivalent to the ID injectors. The ID injectors were actually slightly smaller than the FIC injectors. ID flowed 725, FIC flowed closer to 732.
Pictures of FIC725s:
BOTH COMPARED:
ALSO,
the tuning data is slightly different for these as seen below, but the values WITHIN operating range of a typical vehicle are damn near identical.
ID OFFSET TABLE
FIC OFFSET TABLE
Last edited by ZL1Killa; 06-27-2012 at 01:26 AM.
05-19-2012, 01:48 PM
#2
Staging Lane
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: ny
Posts: 75
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Great post! I have the fuel injector connection 1000's a friend has id 1000, for ***** and giggles we swapped because he said his were better cause they cost twice as much, last laugh on him.. We didn't touch the tune, car ran identical, not one bit of noticeable difference. So yeah, it's a no brainier. These are only injectors and Rolex is not making them Bosch is! Both are good so I rather save and pay for my fuel pump and a few tanks of race fuel.
05-20-2012, 03:21 PM
#3
Coal Mining Director
iTrader: (17)
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Virginia
Posts: 4,442
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
"I got the FIC725s and upon installation all of the O-rings were a nice snug fit, even had to put some elbow grease into a few of them to get them in."
If you run a turbo system with some power (ie: HEAT) that is a mistake. They will almost weld themselves into the manifold over time. Been there, done that. It was very hard to remove the injectors after a season of racing without physically damaging the injector. An OEM sized injector o-ring doesn not need elbow grease to get into the manifold. Slight push should pop them in. I have used both types of o-rings....both coated with silicone.
If you run a turbo system with some power (ie: HEAT) that is a mistake. They will almost weld themselves into the manifold over time. Been there, done that. It was very hard to remove the injectors after a season of racing without physically damaging the injector. An OEM sized injector o-ring doesn not need elbow grease to get into the manifold. Slight push should pop them in. I have used both types of o-rings....both coated with silicone.
05-20-2012, 06:40 PM
#4
TECH Resident
Thread Starter
iTrader: (17)
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: NC - Charlotte area
Posts: 3,747
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
"I got the FIC725s and upon installation all of the O-rings were a nice snug fit, even had to put some elbow grease into a few of them to get them in."
If you run a turbo system with some power (ie: HEAT) that is a mistake. They will almost weld themselves into the manifold over time. Been there, done that. It was very hard to remove the injectors after a season of racing without physically damaging the injector. An OEM sized injector o-ring doesn not need elbow grease to get into the manifold. Slight push should pop them in. I have used both types of o-rings....both coated with silicone.
If you run a turbo system with some power (ie: HEAT) that is a mistake. They will almost weld themselves into the manifold over time. Been there, done that. It was very hard to remove the injectors after a season of racing without physically damaging the injector. An OEM sized injector o-ring doesn not need elbow grease to get into the manifold. Slight push should pop them in. I have used both types of o-rings....both coated with silicone.
Last edited by ZL1Killa; 05-20-2012 at 07:07 PM.
05-20-2012, 07:51 PM
#5
Coal Mining Director
iTrader: (17)
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Virginia
Posts: 4,442
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Yep, use silicone and they should snap right in...if they do, you are golden. If you have to fight them in, I would get an oem set from GM. Some aftermarket companies are using off the shelf O-rings that are slightly bigger than OEM stock....and they are a bitch after a few heat cycles.
05-24-2012, 09:55 PM
#6
TECH Resident
Thread Starter
iTrader: (17)
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: NC - Charlotte area
Posts: 3,747
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
i have re-edited the offset tables to better see them, specifically the numbers, and I have highlighted in red the typical operating range during operation.
ID OFFSET TABLE
FIC OFFSET TABLE
almost forgot, FIC testing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E2fEPLh3ick
waiting on video from ID showing bench testing to show up.
ID OFFSET TABLE
FIC OFFSET TABLE
almost forgot, FIC testing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E2fEPLh3ick
waiting on video from ID showing bench testing to show up.
Last edited by ZL1Killa; 06-23-2012 at 10:59 AM.
Trending Topics
06-26-2012, 10:22 PM
#9
Staging Lane
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: ny
Posts: 75
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
06-26-2012, 10:40 PM
#10
TECH Resident
Thread Starter
iTrader: (17)
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: NC - Charlotte area
Posts: 3,747
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
its square stock, rails, connectors, wheels, ball valves, pump, heatshrink, wiring & control electronics.... I think it looks great to be honest. nice and clean
Last edited by ZL1Killa; 06-28-2012 at 01:02 AM.
06-26-2012, 10:45 PM
#11
TECH Resident
Thread Starter
iTrader: (17)
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: NC - Charlotte area
Posts: 3,747
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Yep, use silicone and they should snap right in...if they do, you are golden. If you have to fight them in, I would get an oem set from GM. Some aftermarket companies are using off the shelf O-rings that are slightly bigger than OEM stock....and they are a bitch after a few heat cycles.
06-27-2012, 01:45 AM
#12
TECH Resident
Thread Starter
iTrader: (17)
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: NC - Charlotte area
Posts: 3,747
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
basically that a set of injectors for a car need to closely match (tolerance) each other during low pulse width periods and high pulse width periods, so that at idle, part throttle, and wide open throttle each injector is providing a known amount of fuel and there is not a large variance.
there however still is a floor, the lowest pulse width that the injector will operate and maintain a controlled amount of injected fuel, you do not want to go at or below this.
there however still is a floor, the lowest pulse width that the injector will operate and maintain a controlled amount of injected fuel, you do not want to go at or below this.
06-27-2012, 11:46 PM
#13
TECH Resident
Thread Starter
iTrader: (17)
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: NC - Charlotte area
Posts: 3,747
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
At this point I don't care to continue the match, I got in the middle of a long, old dispute between two vendors (maybe more) and I honestly don't know who did what where and when with regards to developing an apparatus to decode injector performance and characteristics and then presented data, I really don't care about the history part, as I can't defend either side.
The point is now we are here and its 2012, electronics and computers are more advanced and people are smarter, we learn and adapt. OEMs that develop injectors are starting to provide data, aftermarket people are providing data, so I don't know exactly how to prove that vendor A and vendor B can provide injector data nor if it is a copy or interpolation of other data from other injectors (besides trying to do an interpolation myself).
If people can learn and there exists several machines that can develop all the data for tuning injectors...eventually there are going to be more and more doing so.
I don't see how either side can win, but if both sides as of now have devices that allow them to develop injector data & they can calculate various injector flows for certain circumstances, I don't know what proof it could be but pictures of flow meters and other instrumentation/devices or data compiling without giving too much away would serve better than typing on a keyboard back and forth of a he said she said crap.
The point is now we are here and its 2012, electronics and computers are more advanced and people are smarter, we learn and adapt. OEMs that develop injectors are starting to provide data, aftermarket people are providing data, so I don't know exactly how to prove that vendor A and vendor B can provide injector data nor if it is a copy or interpolation of other data from other injectors (besides trying to do an interpolation myself).
If people can learn and there exists several machines that can develop all the data for tuning injectors...eventually there are going to be more and more doing so.
I don't see how either side can win, but if both sides as of now have devices that allow them to develop injector data & they can calculate various injector flows for certain circumstances, I don't know what proof it could be but pictures of flow meters and other instrumentation/devices or data compiling without giving too much away would serve better than typing on a keyboard back and forth of a he said she said crap.
06-28-2012, 06:57 AM
#14
Staging Lane
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: ny
Posts: 75
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
At this point I don't care to continue the match, I got in the middle of a long, old dispute between two vendors (maybe more) and I honestly don't know who did what where and when with regards to developing an apparatus to decode injector performance and characteristics and then presented data, I really don't care about the history part, as I can't defend either side.
The point is now we are here and its 2012, electronics and computers are more advanced and people are smarter, we learn and adapt. OEMs that develop injectors are starting to provide data, aftermarket people are providing data, so I don't know exactly how to prove that vendor A and vendor B can provide injector data nor if it is a copy or interpolation of other data from other injectors (besides trying to do an interpolation myself).
If people can learn and there exists several machines that can develop all the data for tuning injectors...eventually there are going to be more and more doing so.
I don't see how either side can win, but if both sides as of now have devices that allow them to develop injector data & they can calculate various injector flows for certain circumstances, I don't know what proof it could be but pictures of flow meters and other instrumentation/devices or data compiling without giving too much away would serve better than typing on a keyboard back and forth of a he said she said crap.
The point is now we are here and its 2012, electronics and computers are more advanced and people are smarter, we learn and adapt. OEMs that develop injectors are starting to provide data, aftermarket people are providing data, so I don't know exactly how to prove that vendor A and vendor B can provide injector data nor if it is a copy or interpolation of other data from other injectors (besides trying to do an interpolation myself).
If people can learn and there exists several machines that can develop all the data for tuning injectors...eventually there are going to be more and more doing so.
I don't see how either side can win, but if both sides as of now have devices that allow them to develop injector data & they can calculate various injector flows for certain circumstances, I don't know what proof it could be but pictures of flow meters and other instrumentation/devices or data compiling without giving too much away would serve better than typing on a keyboard back and forth of a he said she said crap.
06-28-2012, 07:55 AM
#15
ID's reason is the same reason that you can't find the formula to make Coke. There's SAE papers out there explaining HOW to characterize them. However, nobody makes a turn key injector characterization setup. They're all custom made.
There's a notable operating difference. Whether people care in contrast to the price of entry is another story.
There's a notable operating difference. Whether people care in contrast to the price of entry is another story.
07-07-2012, 09:58 AM
#19
Staging Lane
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: ny
Posts: 75
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
food for thought.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q7EIHfthUfU
especially check out the last 30 seconds...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q7EIHfthUfU
especially check out the last 30 seconds...
