Apples to Kiwi Comparison
10-22-2012, 12:07 PM
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Apples to Kiwi Comparison I have never seen a direct comparison between an F-1A Procharger and a pair of Garret Gt3582R Turbos at 8-12 psi.
Here is the theoretical combo:
390(based on 6.0L block+.030)
9.2:1 CR forged pistons
6.125 forged rods
3.825 forged crank
CNC ported TFS 225 heads
Edelbrock Pro-Flo EFI intake
83LB Injectors
Blower/Turbo friendly Cam
Air-Air Intercooler
Tranny:
TH400 with 2.48 1st gear/3800-4200 Stall Converter
Rear end:
S-60 3.60-3.90 rear gear
Tires:
295-325/60/15 ET Street Drag Radials Rear
165 VW Front
Wheels:
Weld Draglites 15X5 Front/15X10 Rear
8Pt Roll Cage
Usual front/rear street/strip suspension
Assume car weight 3300-3500 without 260+ lb driver and a 60/40 mix of E-85/E-98.
Expected ET 10.20-9.70
Car to have A/C & stereo if possible but Fiberglass buckets w/out rear seat.
Comparison:
1) Cost which will be more economical?
2)Which will be more Streetable?
3)Which will reach full boost 1st?
4-7) Any other comparision criteria ya'll can think of.
What do Ya'll think?
Here is the theoretical combo:
390(based on 6.0L block+.030)
9.2:1 CR forged pistons
6.125 forged rods
3.825 forged crank
CNC ported TFS 225 heads
Edelbrock Pro-Flo EFI intake
83LB Injectors
Blower/Turbo friendly Cam
Air-Air Intercooler
Tranny:
TH400 with 2.48 1st gear/3800-4200 Stall Converter
Rear end:
S-60 3.60-3.90 rear gear
Tires:
295-325/60/15 ET Street Drag Radials Rear
165 VW Front
Wheels:
Weld Draglites 15X5 Front/15X10 Rear
8Pt Roll Cage
Usual front/rear street/strip suspension
Assume car weight 3300-3500 without 260+ lb driver and a 60/40 mix of E-85/E-98.
Expected ET 10.20-9.70
Car to have A/C & stereo if possible but Fiberglass buckets w/out rear seat.
Comparison:
1) Cost which will be more economical?
2)Which will be more Streetable?
3)Which will reach full boost 1st?
4-7) Any other comparision criteria ya'll can think of.
What do Ya'll think?
Last edited by N2OBaby; 10-23-2012 at 01:17 PM. Reason: Rods not Pistons
10-22-2012, 05:03 PM
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1) The supercharged setup will be more economical to build
2) The Turbocharged setup will be more streetable in that you can electronically control boost. If you use C02 to control it then you can got from 4PSI-40PSI without issue
3) Turbo's will reach full boost first
4) Reliability (Turbo setup is more reliable in that you're not relying on a belt and putting pressure on the crank)
5) Impact (A blower always sounds badass on the street while cruising and Turbo's all you have is the blowoff valve)
6) Efficiency (Blowers have parasitic losses at a much higher level than Turbo's.
7) Weight (Twins will weigh more than the single blower)
2) The Turbocharged setup will be more streetable in that you can electronically control boost. If you use C02 to control it then you can got from 4PSI-40PSI without issue
3) Turbo's will reach full boost first
4) Reliability (Turbo setup is more reliable in that you're not relying on a belt and putting pressure on the crank)
5) Impact (A blower always sounds badass on the street while cruising and Turbo's all you have is the blowoff valve)
6) Efficiency (Blowers have parasitic losses at a much higher level than Turbo's.
7) Weight (Twins will weigh more than the single blower)
10-22-2012, 05:31 PM
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1. Supercharger is cheaper??
2. Use boost controler on supercharger and turbo creates lots of heat. High iats by turbo. Heat soak by turbo. More bearing failures watch how many turbo guys are having turbos rebuilt. And turbo breaks down your oil if oil fed from motor and wears oil out at very fast speed you might get 2000 miles between oil changes.
3. Where are these crank damages?
4. Who is always working on problems turbos.
5. Blowers are more aggressive sounding turbos are sleeper
6. Turbos have to spool up and have a lot of heat more issues and likely hood of electrical and other problems
7. Twins weight more but perform better and more money. They do have twin supercharger kits but are needed
8 with turbo you will need bigger radiator to try to help with heat Procharger lt1 radiator and a extra fan
2. Use boost controler on supercharger and turbo creates lots of heat. High iats by turbo. Heat soak by turbo. More bearing failures watch how many turbo guys are having turbos rebuilt. And turbo breaks down your oil if oil fed from motor and wears oil out at very fast speed you might get 2000 miles between oil changes.
3. Where are these crank damages?
4. Who is always working on problems turbos.
5. Blowers are more aggressive sounding turbos are sleeper
6. Turbos have to spool up and have a lot of heat more issues and likely hood of electrical and other problems
7. Twins weight more but perform better and more money. They do have twin supercharger kits but are needed
8 with turbo you will need bigger radiator to try to help with heat Procharger lt1 radiator and a extra fan
Last edited by js2fst; 10-22-2012 at 05:43 PM.
10-22-2012, 06:09 PM
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Heat soak and connections don't mix. I guess you can also cover the turbo and heat soak the bearings. You can wrap manifolds too! To help spark plug wires last. Remember you need a k member also.
Seriously their are pros and cons people can say about anything. But to make up things to bash another option. Ridiculous! The things I posted hold their weight.
Seriously their are pros and cons people can say about anything. But to make up things to bash another option. Ridiculous! The things I posted hold their weight.
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10-22-2012, 06:27 PM
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Heat soak and connections don't mix. I guess you can also cover the turbo and heat soak the bearings. You can wrap manifolds too! To help spark plug wires last. Remember you need a k member also.
Seriously their are pros and cons people can say about anything. But to make up things to bash another option. Ridiculous! The things I posted hold their weight.
Seriously their are pros and cons people can say about anything. But to make up things to bash another option. Ridiculous! The things I posted hold their weight.
10-22-2012, 07:55 PM
#10
Heat soak and connections don't mix. I guess you can also cover the turbo and heat soak the bearings. You can wrap manifolds too! To help spark plug wires last. Remember you need a k member also.
Seriously their are pros and cons people can say about anything. But to make up things to bash another option. Ridiculous! The things I posted hold their weight.
Seriously their are pros and cons people can say about anything. But to make up things to bash another option. Ridiculous! The things I posted hold their weight.
Heatsoaked bearings?! That's a new one lol. Why do you need a k-member?
10-22-2012, 09:54 PM
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You are suppose to idle and cool of some factory cars at idle before turning off car to reduce the heat soak? I guess you have a turbo wow I have only owned 12 turbo setups factory and custom. I have had 6 superchargers all kinds roots. My last two and next will stay Procharger. It is simple choice I do not want headaches. And I want ac.
Most factory turbos do not push that much power
Most factory turbos do not push that much power
10-22-2012, 10:27 PM
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Turbos are usually more efficient. Twin gt35r's is a decent amount of turbo to only go 9.70's expsecially with a built block. You could go way faster.
Headaches? Turbos? Move along you dont know what your talking about.
You are suppose to idle and cool of some factory cars at idle before turning off car to reduce the heat soak? I guess you have a turbo wow I have only owned 12 turbo setups factory and custom. I have had 6 superchargers all kinds roots. My last two and next will stay Procharger. It is simple choice I do not want headaches. And I want ac.
Most factory turbos do not push that much power
Most factory turbos do not push that much power
10-22-2012, 10:29 PM
#14
Heat soak and connections don't mix. I guess you can also cover the turbo and heat soak the bearings. You can wrap manifolds too! To help spark plug wires last. Remember you need a k member also.
Seriously their are pros and cons people can say about anything. But to make up things to bash another option. Ridiculous! The things I posted hold their weight.
Seriously their are pros and cons people can say about anything. But to make up things to bash another option. Ridiculous! The things I posted hold their weight.
10-23-2012, 07:43 AM
#15
Lol, this is kinda funny. Lots of misinformation being tossed around. I personally prefer turbo sysytems and they can be made just as economical as a charger if you do the work yourself. The reason for idling cars is to bring the turbo temp down and give the oil a chance to cool off the bearings so the oil does not cake on shutoff. With water cooled center sections like you find on most oem set ups from the factory this has been mostly eliminated.
Turbo cars will not heat soak everything any more than a blower if wrapped well. Further blowers AND chargers heat the iat as the byproduct of compressing air is in fact heat! This is why most newer factory superchargers incorporate an intercooler. Look at the new caddy motors with laminova core water to air intercoolers built into their manifolds. Pretty cool.
There are pros and cons to any set up, I just personally prefer the efficiency and lack of issues with a properly designed turbo system.
Turbo cars will not heat soak everything any more than a blower if wrapped well. Further blowers AND chargers heat the iat as the byproduct of compressing air is in fact heat! This is why most newer factory superchargers incorporate an intercooler. Look at the new caddy motors with laminova core water to air intercoolers built into their manifolds. Pretty cool.
There are pros and cons to any set up, I just personally prefer the efficiency and lack of issues with a properly designed turbo system.
10-23-2012, 10:43 AM
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My assumption was that the OP would not be building a kit himself. If that's the case however then you'd also be building your own blower kit. You'd definitely save money on piping for the blower setup however it's the labor that's expensive so the difference isn't really a big deal. Twins means 2 wastegates. Single blowoff for either. You could eliminate the boost controller and use your wastegate springs to control boost but then you limit yourself. Can't controll boost based on traction conditions. Also if you want to use 110 at 25PSI and Pump gas at 14PSI you couldn't do it unless you changed springs or simply stayed out of boost. You need an intercooler for either.
But either way Turbos are better and always will be.
But either way Turbos are better and always will be.
10-23-2012, 11:24 AM
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Everyone is entitled to your own opinion I had over 567 rwhp for 60 k miles I only lost a tensioner and a fan go bad. Procharger checked my Procharger and gear mesh is still good. And still kept ac cruise and everything. And I will keep a Procharger now just with price of only a head unit or turbo the turbo was way cheaper.
10-23-2012, 01:16 PM
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Is a Precision 6076E a cheaper alternative to the Garret GT3582R (especially as twins)??
Last edited by N2OBaby; 10-23-2012 at 01:50 PM. Reason: 1 more thought
10-23-2012, 03:19 PM
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I put 120K on the upgraded Turbo on my 1987 RX7 TurboII. Motor lost compression and needed to be replaced at that point. The Turbo was still perfect and was re-used when the guy who bought the car from me replaced the motor. No rust on the car but those damn Wankels just wear out.