Midnight02

iTrader: (8)

Common sense tells us that our cars aren't going to be a blast to drive in the rain, however I can't figure out why mine is so terrible in the rain relative to other cars I've driven (Corvette, BMW M Roadster, etc).

HPDE out on Road Atlanta yesterday (temps in the 50's, steady rain all day) and they decided to do a "lead - follow" start to the first session. The "pace car" wasn't going fast at all, however I can't safely keep up. We're not talking about a bunch of AWD track cars either -- most were just street cars and there were other RWD "muscle cars" as well. I've been stuck in this mess before with R-comp slicks so I switched over to a set of full tread depth Nitto Invos. Not much stick at all with those, however they did a much better job channeling the standing water out (wasn't hydroplaning).

I understand that tires are cold, smooth inputs are a must, nothing is great in standing water, etc. I also understand that my setup isn't very forgiving in the rain: hard springs, sway bars, engine mods, etc. However, for the life of me I can't understand why it's this bad in the rain. I am convinced I would've had more fun in my 200hp FWD Grand Am!

Do you guys all have the same problem or is there something I'm missing? I'm just trying to understand the relative nature of this problem -- I left and drove home early along with some of the Corvette guys, however I don't understand how a well-modded Mustang GT and Charger go ripping down the front stretch at 80+% throttle when I can't even feather it just to get up to speed.

.boB

iTrader: (1)

When you say, "terrible", what do you mean - exactly.

When traction is limited, every bad habit your car has (and the driver has) is amplified. If it does bad things in the wet it will do pretty much the same thing in the dry, but you've learned to overcome them.

camarokid91

Smooth throttle inputs and being conservative goes a long way. I was out pacing vettes in rain last time I drove in the rain. I love driving in the rain it makes you have to really feel the car.

I can't imagine 400+ HP and 4.10s helped you at all in the rain lol

My car only has 336HP.

79_T/A

iTrader: (1)

I love the rain. Slow your inputs even more, try going up a gear from where you usually are. With your heads/cam I'm sure it pulls like a freight train up top so keeping the RPMs low might help a lot.

1981TA

iTrader: (7)

it's probably a combination of things. You've got the previously mentioned horsepower and rear end gearing, plus I'm guessing the tires aren't the best for cold, steady rain situations. For the "outlier" situations like this, could you switch to another car? I'd prefer to use my GP GXP in crappy weather, over the TA.

Bad Karma Z06

Were any of those guys running dedicated rain tires? I hear the Hoosier Wets are fairly impressive in the rain.

Also have you tried different lines when driving in the wet? Your normal line and hitting the apex like you do in the dry, could be the slickest part of that corner. Sometimes taking a wider line or adjusting in other ways can really improve the feel. It's hard to get used to. I've done minimal rain/wet driving, and definitely found myself wanting to get back to the dry line just out of habit. But if I adjusted on some the corner felt a lot better.

Midnight02

iTrader: (8)

Thanks for all of the responses.

"Terrible" is difficult to quantify, however hopefully a couple examples will help explain how poorly my car handles the rain relative to others on the track.

Day #1: Back in the summer I got caught in a "steady rain, standing water on track" scenario. I focused really hard on being smooth -- stayed on track and controlled, however it was constantly at the edge of what it could take. When it was wet, I was probably the slowest car on track -- I recall pointing by a novice driver in a bone stock Ford Focus hatchback (yes, you read that correctly).

At a loss for what was going on, I asked an instructor to hop in and provide feedback. He couldn't believe how bad it was, so I agreed to let him drive a few laps and he had the same results. When we got out, his comments were along the lines of "Wow, (the car is) a real handful" and "you've been driving it just short of 10/10 and have kept it within the limit the whole time so keep doing what you're doing".

We left with the conclusion that the car is simply much harder to drive in the rain than anything else out there. Later that day, the sun came out and the track dried and I was lapping the same cars that were flying by me

Talked to a buddy in a Corvette that was out there the same day. His car is bone stock and was running Nitto Invo tires and was making great time around the track in the rain. We're similar in driving skill but he was MUCH faster on the wet track and I was a faster on the dry track.

Day #2: This weekend at Road Atlanta. I saw the forecast of 55* and 100% chance of rain. Slapped a set of Nitto Invo tires on my track wheels (instead of the 555R II's that hydroplane in standing water) in hopes I would have a fighting chance. In short, the radials solved the issues of hydroplaning over standing water, however they wouldn't hold a bit of power in the straights. Even a modest throttle application in 3rd and 4th would result in wheelspin. Cold and wet tires coupled with my setup just didn't work.

I adjusted my line and experimented with several different paths. Got all of my acceleration and braking done in a straight line and tried to not upset the balance of the car going into the turns.

One track prep item I missed was to soften up the sway bars. My setup feels relatively well balanced but is generally more prone to oversteer than understeer. Had I thought about it, I could've loosened the rear a bit to err on the side of caution with understeer.

Midnight02

iTrader: (8)

I've heard good feedback on the "Wets" also, however don't have any first hand experience.

My basis of comparison is all relative. The best "apples-to-apples" comparisons I had out at Road Atlanta recently were a new 5.0 Mustang GT, a slightly modded Challenger and a GTO. Same run group. All 4 running radial tires. The Mustang and Challenger appeared to made good time around the track and looked confident applying throttle on the straights. The GTO (beautiful car) ended up in the wall, but I don't know exactly why. I ended up off track after oversteer in #5 but didn't sustain any damage. Decided to call it a day after that.

Your point regarding changing line is sound advice. I felt drawn to the dry line out of habit and started to try different lines. Perhaps if I would've hung around longer I could've found a more ideal line.

At the end of the day, I guess it's likely a stiff suspension setup with 440 rwhp/410 rwtq and 4.10 rear is always going to be a nightmare in the rain. Just trying to learn from others to see if they've found anythinig that helps.

Midnight02

iTrader: (8)

I was thinking of you on Sunday. I recall some of your posts when you had the engine failure in your T/A -- you made the best of the situation and drove the GP GXP around the track all day.

I have a 2-door Grand Am GT and couldn't help but wonder if I would've had more fun in that. Would have no choice but to focus on momentum and I honestly believe it would've been faster. Had the car been prepped to handle a day at Road Atlanta (brakes, fluids, etc.) I would've considered driving it.

FASTFATBOY

iTrader: (23)

Move to a square tire setup, buy a set of cheap, beat up 17x9's and paint them black.

Buy some of these for rains, they are $96 each.

http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tires....Speed+Rated%29


The line in the rain is different from the dry line, did anyone show you that?

The dry line on any track has been "polished" down from running on it, the pavement is smoother there. You want rough pavement for the rain line, which is off the dry line.


These cars suck in the rain, they just do.

Is the car loose or tight in the rain?

Midnight02

iTrader: (8)

Thanks for the tire recommendation.

As for the line, I didn't have any clear instruction on the wet line, however I ran off of the dry line due to the reasons you noted above (the dry line was very slick) and because there was standing water at the apex of several turns.

The car is loose in the rain.

Jeff94TA

I'm running a little stiffer spring and no where near the horsepower or gear but the car is still horrible in the rain. I've never had a good set of rain tires on it so that may be it but last time out with it at Sebring in the rain was scary. I was on some well used Kumho XS's so I'm sure that was the major problem. The car was either under steering or over steering pretty much the whole track. Here's some video running in the time trial group and you can see me get passed a couple of times by some of the guys that never pass me in the dry.

Midnight02

iTrader: (8)

That's precisely what I was trying to figure out -- you've had similarly poor experiences in the rain, despite the fact your setup is more favorable to those conditions (traction-friendly gearing, power level, etc.). It's helpful to know that me changing my setup wouldn't likely yield greatly improved results.

I think the concensus here is leading me to "these cars suck in the rain" conclusion. There seem to be a few little things I can do to help, however ultimately will have to accept the fact that (in the rain) I'm not going to be able to hang with some of the same cars I was flying by on dry pavement.

NW-99SS

iTrader: (6)

I have no advice to give as I have never raced in the rain, and only caught with one my "performance" cars in the rain a handful of times (fun to drift in!).

But all this talk sure makes me appreciate Senna's skill in the rain even more than I already did. He told his crew a funny statement back in the 80's. Every one was airing down their tires looking for grip - he told his crew to increase the pressure, thereby increasing the gap between the treads increasing grip. They thought he was out of his mind until he went out and recorded his fastest lap like that!

AronZ28

iTrader: (2)

Are you allowed to add weight? Throwing a 50lb bag of concrete mix in the back of the hatch would definitely help matters. Plus its about the same size as the hole back there, so I don't think it would slide around.

79_T/A

iTrader: (1)

Is that a serious suggestion? A 50lb projectile in your trunk while on track?

OP, are you able to adjust your rear roll center by either a lowered PHB or watts link? If you soften up the rear of the car by lowering the roll center it won't be as loose in the rain. Understeer is easier to manage in the rain.

FASTFATBOY

iTrader: (23)

What is the angle of your rear lower control arms? The end at the body should be higher than the end at the rear end housing.

A lot of people unhook one side of the rear swaybar in the rain to soften the rear end.

One thing to remember in the rain, everything that happens in the rains happens in the dry...just at a lower speed.

Rain days make me a nervous wreck, but they accelerate your learning a ton.

FNelson

yeah I really don't like driving in the rain. I take it nice and easy. Nice easy inputs and a slower roll on the throttle. The last track day at laguna seca I had to take my cruze out. My z06 got hit the afternoon before. I just picked it up from the shop. 5 minutes later car slid though the light. First rain in a while. Tagged me right in my rear drivers wheel. So my plan for the rest of the year is last minute the last few track days of the year.



this is thunder hill

AronZ28

iTrader: (2)

Hey it works on street driven cars like magic. Although you are right, whatever weight you put back there will need to be secured. I'm thinking if you want to do it cheap and can weld, fab up a cross brace in the trunk to mount gym weights. That way you can easily change out the amount of weight.

Midnight02

iTrader: (8)

Honestly, not sure -- I'll take a look at these when I get home.

I've heard of unhooking one side of the rear sway bar and it makes sense. At a minimum, it should soften the rear and would hopefully make the car more prone to understeer in the rain.