Spending lots of $$$ on turbo, Some advice would be GREAT
09-23-2005, 12:55 PM
#1
Spending lots of $$$ on turbo, Some advice.. UPDATED w/pics Alright, here's my deal... I've been doing my "research" on this site (and othes) religously. I have literally hours in/on everyday of back-reading. I'm 7/8ths through Maximum Boost. I've got a turbo kit coming, and I need a little application specific advice, please.
The car is an '01 TA M6, all stock, and about 20K on the clock now. As far as a driving style, the car has been babied and won't be too abused in the future either.
The FI kit is a PTK kit with a 76gts. The kit comes with a FMIC, and I am getting a progressive meth setup. The shortblock is gonna be forged, and come from A&A Corvette. The car will not be my primary mode of transportation. With a stock displacement LS1, can I get by with pump gas @ about 14-15psi with the FMIC and meth, or is this too ambitious? Also, very importantly, what final CR do I want to shoot for for this setup? I was thinking around 8.5:1, Andy at A&A says 9:1, and I have been told by others to go low 8s:1.... I felt that low to mid 8s left a little more of a detontion cushion, why would Andy say 9:1? What do I need?
Since, until a few days ago I had been looking at something smaller and trying to keep the stock bottom end intact, my needs have now changed. I am, honestly, hoping for 650-700RW on pump. If this is not realistic, let me know. Will 60lb injectors still be enough? Will this setup get by with a different in-tank pump and injectors, or will all the lines and rails have to be upped at this level?
Since the heads aren't gonna make or break me to an extent at this level, I'd like some affordable options since $$$ is freakin flying out the door in every other direction... How would this setup fair with, say, a set of stock but new LS6 heads, VS. the Patriot stg.3 heads with bigger valves? I know where some new LS6 setups are for around $800... To be honest, reading some of the threads from the last few days, the LS6 cam and heads sound like a decent fit.
I'm still reading through bookmarked PCV threads, so I may have some questions about an optimal setup in the future.
Thanks alot for your time.
The car is an '01 TA M6, all stock, and about 20K on the clock now. As far as a driving style, the car has been babied and won't be too abused in the future either.
The FI kit is a PTK kit with a 76gts. The kit comes with a FMIC, and I am getting a progressive meth setup. The shortblock is gonna be forged, and come from A&A Corvette. The car will not be my primary mode of transportation. With a stock displacement LS1, can I get by with pump gas @ about 14-15psi with the FMIC and meth, or is this too ambitious? Also, very importantly, what final CR do I want to shoot for for this setup? I was thinking around 8.5:1, Andy at A&A says 9:1, and I have been told by others to go low 8s:1.... I felt that low to mid 8s left a little more of a detontion cushion, why would Andy say 9:1? What do I need?
Since, until a few days ago I had been looking at something smaller and trying to keep the stock bottom end intact, my needs have now changed. I am, honestly, hoping for 650-700RW on pump. If this is not realistic, let me know. Will 60lb injectors still be enough? Will this setup get by with a different in-tank pump and injectors, or will all the lines and rails have to be upped at this level?
Since the heads aren't gonna make or break me to an extent at this level, I'd like some affordable options since $$$ is freakin flying out the door in every other direction... How would this setup fair with, say, a set of stock but new LS6 heads, VS. the Patriot stg.3 heads with bigger valves? I know where some new LS6 setups are for around $800... To be honest, reading some of the threads from the last few days, the LS6 cam and heads sound like a decent fit.
I'm still reading through bookmarked PCV threads, so I may have some questions about an optimal setup in the future.
Thanks alot for your time.
Last edited by Frost; 09-28-2005 at 10:45 AM. Reason: added pics ta page 2
09-23-2005, 01:02 PM
#2
LS1TECH Sponsor
iTrader: (2)
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Huntsville, AL
Posts: 2,725
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Stock heads will flow all you can make....will just take a higher boost pressure to achieve the #'s you may want compared to a set of BIG AFR heads or fully done LS6 heads.
Jose
Jose
09-23-2005, 01:29 PM
#3
TECH Fanatic
iTrader: (5)
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Phoenix AZ
Posts: 1,005
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The lower the CR ya go the less detonation ya hve to worry about. The car wont make alot less off boost power if you make it 8-1 or 8.5-1. But having the CR that low makes it so that you cna make 650 hp without even meth.
As far as heads jsut get the 6.0 truck heads. They have a bigger CC to hepl with teh CR adn detonation and they flow ALOT better then teh stockers. They ahve the same ports as a Z06 head.
60# injectors will be plenty. They are good for ALOT more then that.
For teh power you wanna make you are either gona need 1 big fuel pump or 2 smaller ones. You are better off gettin 2 smaller ones as the big boys are usually REALLY noisy and have no benifit over 2 smaller ones.
There is people that use the stock rails for big power but if ya have the money ya should jsut do teh fuel system from front to back so that your money into the engine isnt lost when 1 part of teh stock system cant handle it. Ie new pumps, feed line, rails and a FPR.
GL man
John
As far as heads jsut get the 6.0 truck heads. They have a bigger CC to hepl with teh CR adn detonation and they flow ALOT better then teh stockers. They ahve the same ports as a Z06 head.
60# injectors will be plenty. They are good for ALOT more then that.
For teh power you wanna make you are either gona need 1 big fuel pump or 2 smaller ones. You are better off gettin 2 smaller ones as the big boys are usually REALLY noisy and have no benifit over 2 smaller ones.
There is people that use the stock rails for big power but if ya have the money ya should jsut do teh fuel system from front to back so that your money into the engine isnt lost when 1 part of teh stock system cant handle it. Ie new pumps, feed line, rails and a FPR.
GL man
John
09-23-2005, 01:36 PM
#4
TECH Resident
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Castro Valley, CA
Posts: 832
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Jose, since you bring up the "which heads" flow/boost point, I have a question for you:
Let's say we have two engines, both with stock bottom ends. We go turbo on each of these engines, but on engine A we use stockish (restrictive) heads and generate our 550 rwhp measuring say 10 lbs of boost.
Engine B, on the other hand, uses some AFR 225's/72cc for the heads, and achieves the 550 rwhp at less measured boost (your point from above).
With all else being equal (tuning, etc.), which setup do you believe is "safer" to that stock bottom end? Or will they be the same in that regard?
My first impression is to think that lower boost is safer; but if it's all about airflow then perhaps that's not true. Interested to know what you think...
Thanks,
Rich
Let's say we have two engines, both with stock bottom ends. We go turbo on each of these engines, but on engine A we use stockish (restrictive) heads and generate our 550 rwhp measuring say 10 lbs of boost.
Engine B, on the other hand, uses some AFR 225's/72cc for the heads, and achieves the 550 rwhp at less measured boost (your point from above).
With all else being equal (tuning, etc.), which setup do you believe is "safer" to that stock bottom end? Or will they be the same in that regard?
My first impression is to think that lower boost is safer; but if it's all about airflow then perhaps that's not true. Interested to know what you think...
Thanks,
Rich
09-23-2005, 02:28 PM
#5
Patriot's LS6 stg 3's are 6.0L LQ9s if I'm not mistaken... At about $1100, they seem like an OK deal, new and setup... Is it worth the money to get those w/72cc chams (with bigger valves) vs. a stock set of LQ9s (~$300-$600) that will still need at least springs?
09-23-2005, 02:52 PM
#6
TECH Junkie
iTrader: (9)
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Miami, FL
Posts: 3,472
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by RW99
Jose, since you bring up the "which heads" flow/boost point, I have a question for you:
Let's say we have two engines, both with stock bottom ends. We go turbo on each of these engines, but on engine A we use stockish (restrictive) heads and generate our 550 rwhp measuring say 10 lbs of boost.
Engine B, on the other hand, uses some AFR 225's/72cc for the heads, and achieves the 550 rwhp at less measured boost (your point from above).
With all else being equal (tuning, etc.), which setup do you believe is "safer" to that stock bottom end? Or will they be the same in that regard?
My first impression is to think that lower boost is safer; but if it's all about airflow then perhaps that's not true. Interested to know what you think...
Thanks,
Rich
Let's say we have two engines, both with stock bottom ends. We go turbo on each of these engines, but on engine A we use stockish (restrictive) heads and generate our 550 rwhp measuring say 10 lbs of boost.
Engine B, on the other hand, uses some AFR 225's/72cc for the heads, and achieves the 550 rwhp at less measured boost (your point from above).
With all else being equal (tuning, etc.), which setup do you believe is "safer" to that stock bottom end? Or will they be the same in that regard?
My first impression is to think that lower boost is safer; but if it's all about airflow then perhaps that's not true. Interested to know what you think...
Thanks,
Rich
DAMNED good effin' question, so ttt for this mini-hijack!
Anyway, Frost, sounds to me like you just have more minor details to work out than anything else. What are your drivetrain plans?
09-23-2005, 03:07 PM
#7
Originally Posted by bboyferal
DAMNED good effin' question, so ttt for this mini-hijack!
Anyway, Frost, sounds to me like you just have more minor details to work out than anything else. What are your drivetrain plans?
Anyway, Frost, sounds to me like you just have more minor details to work out than anything else. What are your drivetrain plans?
Trending Topics
09-23-2005, 06:32 PM
#9
TECH Addict
iTrader: (2)
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Ahwatukee, Az
Posts: 2,333
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
i would think that the higher boost application with stockish heads would be more stressful. boost is basically a measure of resistance right? so if your making the same amount of power with more resistance, wouldnt that create more pressure on the system and internals?
09-24-2005, 05:32 PM
#10
Originally Posted by Frost
Patriot's LS6 stg 3's are 6.0L LQ9s if I'm not mistaken... At about $1100, they seem like an OK deal, new and setup... Is it worth the money to get those w/72cc chams (with bigger valves) vs. a stock set of LQ9s (~$300-$600) that will still need at least springs?
Stay away from them...... I dont care what any one says... Patriot heads are CRAP..
I learned the hard way....... I had to have my heads redone my livernoise..... so in the end the cheap heads that were $1100 cost me $175-$1800 to have done right.... that $$ that wouldofbeen spent inthe beginning for a good set of heads in the first place..... and now im not worring about them...... there valve springs are awsome... but there seats and quides and valve job sucked.......If your wanting to low ball it $$ wise then get s stock set of 6.0L heads and do a good set of valve springs.....
When you spendthismuch dont skimp in the area's that could cost you alot later down the road...... Thats my .02
Kyle
09-24-2005, 09:52 PM
#11
Originally Posted by NA$TY-TA
Stay away from them...... I dont care what any one says... Patriot heads are CRAP.. I learned the hard way....... I had to have my heads redone my livernoise..... so in the end the cheap heads that were $1100 cost me $175-$1800 to have done right.... that $$ that wouldofbeen spent inthe beginning for a good set of heads in the first place..... and now im not worring about them...... there valve springs are awsome... but there seats and quides and valve job sucked.......
If your wanting to low ball it $$ wise then get s stock set of 6.0L heads and do a good set of valve springs.....
When you spendthismuch dont skimp in the area's that could cost you alot later down the road...... Thats my .02
Kyle
I learned the hard way....... I had to have my heads redone my livernoise..... so in the end the cheap heads that were $1100 cost me $175-$1800 to have done right.... that $$ that wouldofbeen spent inthe beginning for a good set of heads in the first place..... and now im not worring about them...... there valve springs are awsome... but there seats and quides and valve job sucked.......If your wanting to low ball it $$ wise then get s stock set of 6.0L heads and do a good set of valve springs.....
When you spendthismuch dont skimp in the area's that could cost you alot later down the road...... Thats my .02
Kyle
This brings up a new question... are (by any fortune) the six-liter heads' springs' the same as the LS6? They aren't expensive, I just need ta know.
Thanks alot.
09-24-2005, 10:11 PM
#13
Originally Posted by NA$TY-TA
Im not sure about that ..... why dont you just get the ZO6 kit and replace the valve springs on a set of 6.0L heads and add the Z06 cam and that should do her.......
Kyle
Kyle
When you say kit, is that valves, springs, locks, and retainers? Are the valve sizes the same in the 2 different castings?
The Z06 setup is very likely what I'm gonna go with. Seeing as how the bottom end can take a bit more turning than stock, how far (RPM wise) will the Z06 be pulling with the turbo?
09-25-2005, 01:36 AM
#14
Here ya go..... 2002 ZO6 camshaft is $219.95 from summit and the springs are $6.95 each ($111.20) and there stock diameter..... so the stock locks, and retainers and seats will work just fine. So for about $340 shipped the valve train would be done and work awsome....... thats just my .02
Kyle
Kyle
09-27-2005, 07:29 AM
#18
10 Second Club
iTrader: (2)
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Orlando, Florida
Posts: 6,368
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I would put in a set of double valve springs for good measure. if you got the engine apart it makes sense to do it. You don't want to float valves, its cheap insurance.
offtopic.
Hey NastyTA why are you going with a glide now, is your car gonna be track only now?
offtopic.
Hey NastyTA why are you going with a glide now, is your car gonna be track only now?
09-27-2005, 04:45 PM
#19
Originally Posted by Got Me SOM
I would put in a set of double valve springs for good measure. if you got the engine apart it makes sense to do it. You don't want to float valves, its cheap insurance.
offtopic.
Hey NastyTA why are you going with a glide now, is your car gonna be track only now?
offtopic.
Hey NastyTA why are you going with a glide now, is your car gonna be track only now?
KP is running those springs and that Cam with the boost he's running and running 9's......
Get Me SOM.... she's going to be a track car i drive on the street...
Ill drive it to work and back.. (1.5 miles each way) and around town and to meets and stuff... no long trips...... should be just fine..... 3.70 gears, 28" tall tire..... wont be to bad... about 2800 rpm's @70mph...... FWIW i was spinning 2500rpm @ 70mph with my 4L60E and 3.73 gears and a 26" tall tire....... wont be that bad...... even with no OD. Im not to worried..... 
Kyle
09-27-2005, 05:16 PM
#20
Thanks for the info guys, this settles it for me.
Hiway driving with cruise RPM under the convertor's flash speed will make HEAT. I used to have a stall that flashed 5K behind a 6" rod 406" SBC and even with my big tranny cooler, driving 25 miles to the next town on the hiway made it HOT. I could cruise around 60ish @ 3K with the 3.73s on level ground. Going uphill the convertor would slip to mid 4s to keep up speed.
Hiway driving with cruise RPM under the convertor's flash speed will make HEAT. I used to have a stall that flashed 5K behind a 6" rod 406" SBC and even with my big tranny cooler, driving 25 miles to the next town on the hiway made it HOT. I could cruise around 60ish @ 3K with the 3.73s on level ground. Going uphill the convertor would slip to mid 4s to keep up speed.