Northwest Members - Turbo or supercharger

OK guys,

I'm starting to do research for the car I want to build. Basically the car is going to be a pro touring 68 camaro with an LS1/T56. I'm shooting for 600 RWHP. The car will see a few track days (hence pro touring) and I'll probably take it to the strip just to see what it will do, but it won't be a drag race setup.

Basically I'm planning on forced induction. Initially I wanted to use a magnacharger, but from my reading, it doesn't seem that it will make 600RWHP (seems to max out in the mid-low 500s. )

So now what?

Turbocharger?
ATI Procharger?
Vortech?
Twin screw???

Is there any concerns with any of them while road racing (such as heat build up.....i'm thinking that's what's gonig to get the turbocharger cut from the posibilities)

I figure I'll rebuild the engine with forged internals, drop the compression, and while I'm at it, I figure I might as well throw in a stroker crank too. I'm hoping this all will help the drivability, so it's a streetable 600HP.

http://www.rapidmotorsports.com/model_cats.cfm?pgTask=product_detail&intCatId=2&intSubCatId=66&intProductId=978&intModelId=1&intYearId=3

Maybe this will help you decide, the cost of going FI is not cheap, and keeping your setup lightweight is important for pro touring.

COOL! Sounds like fun. I do believe heat will knock the turbo out of your plans too. But maybe not if it's done right. I have seen s/c'd road race cars, but not a turbo car. (doesn't mean they aren't out there) A turbo can make more power, and the level is easily adjustable, even elctrically. But a blower makes more bottom end power (might be better for coming out of turns). And I hear people say a turbo is more durable, but my ATI is a turbo without exhaust going into it, so I don't see how.

Another point to consider, centrifugals are supposed to create the least amount of heat as far as the air charge goes. And one like a Vortech that has air to water cooling allows you to super cool the charge with ice. (for 15 minutes or so)

I am building my car to drag race predominantly, open road race when I want to, and be a show car. Not to say my plan is the best way, but I felt it was going to live longer & be faster than say a 383 spinner would, and get better gas mileage. And I can always go bigger on the blower if I want more power, which of course I won't....ever....I promise.

As for cost, no matter which way you go, plan on spending at least $15k to get it setup right. Anyway, sounds like a kick-ass project. I am sure we will ALL be watching with great interest to see which path you choose & how it turns out. Good luck!!!

Mark

Just wait for the kenne bell to hit the market and invest in that. Will definitely make the most average tq and hp.


Nate

Just wait for the kenne bell to hit the market and invest in that. Will definitely make the most average tq and hp.


Nate

Yeah, I looked on kenne bell's website last night, but the kit isn't available yet, so It didn't have a lot of info or results.


Does the ATI (or vortech) have their own oiling system, or is it tapped into the engines? I looked at the ATI at one time for my formula and was pretty impressed with it.

The "bad" news of all of this is that I won't be starting on the project until after we move into our new house next fall, so I still have time (to wait :( and plan)

Some more details on my plans:
narrowed rearend with some 315+ wide tires on the back....don't know if I'll go with 17" or 18". That will nesecitate a mini tub.
on the front I'd like to run something wider than a 245, but with the stock front clip apparently anything wider will hit the framerail.......so I might go with an aftermarket front clip which may solve 3 problems....allow for wider tires, have a good suspension setup (rather than modifying stock setup) and may allow for direct bolt in of the LS1 (rather than making custum mounts, notching the oilpan, finding headers to clear the steering box)
The rear suspension I'm going to use is a "truck arm" suspension from hot rods to hell (www.hotrodstohell.net)
Brakes will probably be LS1 fbody brakes
Interior: might use 4th gen seats and Autometer gauges, mild stereo

As for color I was originally thinking blue, but then I'm thinkin SOM with traditional camaro racing stripes in charcoal grey would look good. With maybe a 2" cowl hood (was thinking for clearance of the magnacharger....might rethink this now though)

That's about it

As far as paying for it: Basically my formula will be paid off next year, so I'm just going to redirect that money into the "camaro fund" At a "estimated" price tag of around $40k, its going to take me a few years to finish the project, but it should be a lot of fun :)

KBs are nice units! They make a ton of power, even on a Ford motor. :jest: (flame suit on)

I like your setup! One more note on a 1st gen front end. If you don't go with a taller wheel, the inside of the tires can rub on the tie rod ends in hard corners. Yeah, I found out the hard way.....that metal eats right thru a tire! :bang:

And ATIs have self contained oiling while Vortechs tap into the oil pan. (like most turbos as I understand it) Pros & cons for both designs. THe thing I like AND dislike about Vortechs is they sit on top of the engine. So while you can see all that pretty stuff, it also gets in the way of simple tasks like changing spark plugs! :eyes:

As you can probably tell, I thought about this a lot before I decided which system to buy.

I did a little reading on the Kenne Belle blowers tonight. The article (out of "Truckin'") was comparing the stock supercharger on a lightning a Kenne Belle.

The stock Lightning supercharger is an Eaton 112 roots style supercharger (basically the same as the magnacharger, just set up for use on the lightning).

Basically the Kenne Bell unit kicked the Eaton's butt all over the place. (Article didn't say what the size of the KB unit was though)

Another interesting bit of info was how efficienty the Lightning intercooler setup managed to cool temperatures. Might have to look into that kind of set up (depending on how the KB is adapted to the LS1)

I know of more than 1 Cobra that is making 650+ rwhp with a KB!

I left a couple of magazines over at Don's & Ellis's house recently that comapares centrifugal to roots to turbos to nitrous. I'll see if they still have them & send you the info. It's good reading. It shows all the pros & cons of each system. They compare the gains to the costs to the risks and talk to some racers that use each one to get their opinion.

The gist of what the articles tell you is a centrifugal super charger (ATI , Vortech, etc) is the most efficient, safest, all-around most bang for your buck way to go. That is not to say the other systems aren't good! Or that you can't get into trouble with an ATI. (huh Ellis?)

In another article they install a nasty-ass solid roller in a s/c'd 355(?) & hit 700hp, then put in a mild hydraulic roller & get the same power. Quite an eye opener for me....

yeah, I've been reading in the forced induction forum about people making good power with mild cams

I'd take a look at those articles

While we're on the subject, I"ve been notiing in peoples sig "FMIC". I think I figured that is an intercooler, but what is the FM stand for?

From doing some reading, it sounds like the 04 GTO procharger kit is supposed to work with a Fbody LS1 in a 1st gen camaro.

Man this is a lot of research....good thing I have some time to think about it :D

While we're on the subject, I"ve been notiing in peoples sig "FMIC". I think I figured that is an intercooler, but what is the FM stand for?


Front Mounted Intercooler. As in, it's mounted in front of the radiator/bumper area.
There are also SMIC, and TMIC which are side mounted and top mount respectively.

I prefer a turbo over a blower any day of the week but that's just me. A properly sized turbo will have power exactly where you need on a road course.

turbo

turbo

Ditto

I wonder how a turbo would do on a 502 BBC?

I wonder how a turbo would do on a 502 BBC?

Think turbo on a 350 .... only more :D

Turbo is definitely the way to go.

No offense guys, you KNOW I respect all of you, but I think "Turbo" is rather weak. I mean really, that's like saying Ford or Chevy. State your opinions / facts why he should go with a turbo so the guy (& all of us) know why it's a better option. We're all here to learn....

And damn Charlie, a tubo on a 502?! :eek2: You better look at the rear end catalog Don has. That's going to throw down Pro Stock level torque. :)

No offense guys, you KNOW I respect all of you, but I think "Turbo" is rather weak. I mean really, that's like saying Ford or Chevy. State your opinions / facts why he should go with a turbo so the guy (& all of us) know why it's a better option. We're all here to learn....



That sweet PSSSSSHHHHTT! blowoff valve noise! :jest:

I don't dispute the fact that I can make just as much power with a turbo as a supercharger, my concern is with the amount of heat that is poduced with a turbo on a road course.

I mean in drag racing you "might" be pushing it for a minute at a time, and heat build up isn't a concern, but when you're out on a road course for a 20 minute lapping session this becomes much more of a concern. I can just imaging the turbine side of a turbo glowing red hot, burning up the oil in the turbo, bearings siezing, and car going caput.

A centrifugal makes great big end power and it comes on in a very linear, very controllable fashion. Easy to control when exiting corners, but is a little weak thru the mid-range, which will hurt the all important corner exit

A positive displacement blower has an excellent powerband, and is awesome on corner exits since it's boost arrives in such an early and predictable manner. GREAT lowend torque/mid range power. Kind of like N/A power only MORE :) However they tend to be a little weak on the big end, and all the weight sits up very high, which doesn't help handling. Lots of people will argue this with me. Go ahead ;)

A turbo makes awesome midrange power and has an awesome big end rush. Pretty much the best power producer out there IMO. However when your dancing on the edge at mid-corner trying to dial in the exact amount of power that the tires/chassis will take on corner exit, having the boost suddenly come on can ruin your day. It is just not as predictable as the other two methods. There are GREAT turbo road race cars ( 996 Turbo Porsche anyone ? ) but I've lapped against, compared my car with, and spoken with turbo car owners ( track prepped TT Supra/300 ZX TT/A few custom jobs etc ) at many a lapping day and they all ( the ones who made 400+ rwhp ) seemed to agree that they have to kind of tippy toe on the fast sweeper corner exits to stay in that "comfort zone".

There you have it as I see it. Others will see it differantly and that's ok with me lol ! All have their upsides and downsides. Having said all of this, if I were going to go F/I on my WS6 I'd go TURBO :D Any can be setup to work well however.

Actualy yes i did suggest a turbo after experiance with blowers. A turbo is more reliable and has a better long term track record for that kind of racing.

With the blower even at low boost I was always blowing hoses or belts ;)

I don't dispute the fact that I can make just as much power with a turbo as a supercharger, my concern is with the amount of heat that is poduced with a turbo on a road course.

I mean in drag racing you "might" be pushing it for a minute at a time, and heat build up isn't a concern, but when you're out on a road course for a 20 minute lapping session this becomes much more of a concern. I can just imaging the turbine side of a turbo glowing red hot, burning up the oil in the turbo, bearings siezing, and car going caput.

Is there is so much more excess heat build up with a turbo over a blower? I don't see why there would be but I don't know.

From what I understand you want as much exhaust heat (and consequently exhaust velocity) to go through a turbo as you can get. So having a hotter exhaust temp, as long as the piping/turbo can handle it is a good thing. Then just intercool the intake charge with an effecient turbo/piping and you're good to go.

http://www.ultimatecarpage.com/frame.php?file=car.php&carnum=422

Nuff said.

I don't dispute the fact that I can make just as much power with a turbo as a supercharger, my concern is with the amount of heat that is poduced with a turbo on a road course.

I mean in drag racing you "might" be pushing it for a minute at a time, and heat build up isn't a concern, but when you're out on a road course for a 20 minute lapping session this becomes much more of a concern. I can just imaging the turbine side of a turbo glowing red hot, burning up the oil in the turbo, bearings siezing, and car going caput.
Turbos are designed to run under high heat. Obviously hitting an extreme outside the intended operating range of the turbo could damage it, but that would hold true for any part. As quick reference, the winning rally cars have turbos and don't have heat issues, and they run for a tad more than 20 minutes at a time.

And there are methods of getting rid of the extra heat. But like belts breaking on super chargers, you need to be aware of it so you can make educated decisions about which system you buy, and try to build it so you don't have issues.

One plus of using an LSx motor is it has a composite intake, so you don't have that heat soak issue that people deal with on other motors with metal intakes.

And damn Charlie, a tubo on a 502?! :eek2: You better look at the rear end catalog Don has. That's going to throw down Pro Stock level torque. :)

That's the idea. It puts down 580 RWTQ right now so I'm afraid the built, spooled Mosier 12 bolt ain't gonna cut it for long.

And there are methods of getting rid of the extra heat. But like belts breaking on super chargers, you need to be aware of it so you can make educated decisions about which system you buy, and try to build it so you don't have issues.

One plus of using an LSx motor is it has a composite intake, so you don't have that heat soak issue that people deal with on other motors with metal intakes.

I guess I'll do a little more reading on turbos. I can probably run some sort of oil cooler going to the turbo, that ought to help out a little. Might have to look into a little higher end oil too (amsoil, royal purple, etc)

Mmmmm...turbo :drive:

If you can handle the extra 1/4 sec of lag in the spool up, you can mount the turbo in the rear & ventilate it. Not that I like how low an STS hangs, but at least all that extra heat isn't in the engine compartment. The heat + how much harder it is to make a turbo install 'show quality' is why I went with a super charger.

But both make great power, and have issues to work out, AND cost a lot of $!