Western Members - 1/4 mile track outside of Palm Springs

Hey, just checking on the interest in setting up a 1/4 miles track on a piece of private property outside of Palm Springs?

I put this out there for anyone because if I set it up, I don't see it as a money-making venture, so I don't mind someone nicking it. I already own the land and its paid for, so might as well put it to some use for the time being.

If anyone knows of the legal repurcussions, please PM or email me. It would be appreciated and not forgotten. Where I come from, favors are returned.

this sounds like a good idea

with the demise or dead stall of banning it souds like a damn good idea......and heres something for ya.....if your serious I'm and architect.

That's good info.

and yes, serious as a heart attack. My biggest concern is the legality, both for me and for the participants.

It would do no good if police were allowed to break it up even though its on private property. I don't know if it would still be considered "illegal" if the races are held on private property.

Yeah you would def. have to look into the insurance part of it. If you get permits and such from the city and talk to them, I would like to see how this comes along. If you need any help out here let me know.

Please do this....You will be swamped with Fbods and I'll be a regular when I'm not out of the country.

you can race on your own property as long as you don't make it into a public event....
but if we are racing and someone gets hurt on your property... then you are liable....
the only thing that I can think of is drawing up some kind of legal waiver ( at your own risk type thing)

you have to hae participants sign a release waiver....the NHRA has you do this anytime you race. the participants must have a minimu of $8000 in health insurance. if you are going to hold orginized events you must have a ambulance on site and i think they are like 1500 a day. if you are out of the city limits then the municipality cannot interfere. the only reason the CHP can patroll the toll roads is because they ahve a contractual agreement with the road owners. the toll roads in so cal are privately owned. and naturally you will have to have a certian amount of liability insurance for the facility, i imagine a $1million dolar writer

Hell I'd go if it didn't get roudy... shouldn't... so yah... just draw up something that basically says 'If you fug up, it's your @$$, not mine'...

you have to hae participants sign a release waiver....the NHRA has you do this anytime you race. the participants must have a minimu of $8000 in health insurance. if you are going to hold orginized events you must have a ambulance on site and i think they are like 1500 a day. if you are out of the city limits then the municipality cannot interfere. the only reason the CHP can patroll the toll roads is because they ahve a contractual agreement with the road owners. the toll roads in so cal are privately owned. and naturally you will have to have a certian amount of liability insurance for the facility, i imagine a $1million dolar writer

Regarding the toll roads...the entity that constructed the tolls had a type of lease agreement with the property, and the ownership of the roadway reverts to the State within a stipulated timeframe. Almost all the toll roads constructed in the early 90's have become State owned now, although the revenue management is still performed by a private company.

With regard to the track, you're going to need to consult an attorney, because the potential liability is incredible and you're going to want to defer the risk away from your personal assets. Also, to set up a track you're going to need to check if it is an allowable use of the land (i.e. conformance with the General and Specific Plans of the area), and if it requires a conditional use permit (very likely). The application and approval process for this could take months.

As for insurance, you'll need to have a business plan, with a complete risk analysis performed before someone will even consider underwriting a policy. For any surety, the proposal is going to have to be legit, with real dollars/assets backing it up, and it ain't going to be cheap.

There are a million other things that go along with this, but these are the few thoughts I had...

BowtieBear: are you a licensed architect now? If you are, you know why I ask...if you're not, you should probably find out why I ask.

Hell I'd go if it didn't get roudy... shouldn't... so yah... just draw up something that basically says 'If you fug up, it's your @$$, not mine'...

I don't think so. There is non-subrogated liability the owner assumes by allowing or condoning the activity on his property.

but if we are racing and someone gets hurt on your property... then you are liable....

...and fucked.

...and fucked.
clusterfucked

sounds like a great idea, i would definitely be down for that

Regarding the toll roads...the entity that constructed the tolls had a type of lease agreement with the property, and the ownership of the roadway reverts to the State within a stipulated timeframe. Almost all the toll roads constructed in the early 90's have become State owned now, although the revenue management is still performed by a private company.

With regard to the track, you're going to need to consult an attorney, because the potential liability is incredible and you're going to want to defer the risk away from your personal assets. Also, to set up a track you're going to need to check if it is an allowable use of the land (i.e. conformance with the General and Specific Plans of the area), and if it requires a conditional use permit (very likely). The application and approval process for this could take months.

As for insurance, you'll need to have a business plan, with a complete risk analysis performed before someone will even consider underwriting a policy. For any surety, the proposal is going to have to be legit, with real dollars/assets backing it up, and it ain't going to be cheap.

There are a million other things that go along with this, but these are the few thoughts I had...

BowtieBear: are you a licensed architect now? If you are, you know why I ask...if you're not, you should probably find out why I ask.

there are many "OUTLAW " tracks that operate in the US on private property...and the same rules of liability would aply as they do for a swimming pool liability. yes consulting an attorney to clarify your rights....premitting issues will be based on location and what municipality the land is in.

i have been spending time in the gulf and east texas since labor day weekend with damage assesments and rebuilding stratgies for our clients....so i have been out of touch...i am regestered with CA and NCARB...will start the battery of nine after the first of the year..........why do you ask?

there are many "OUTLAW " tracks that operate in the US on private property...and the same rules of liability would aply as they do for a swimming pool liability. yes consulting an attorney to clarify your rights....premitting issues will be based on location and what municipality the land is in. True, but we're talking about California, and the rules of liability are not that same as they are for a pool.

i have been spending time in the gulf and east texas since labor day weekend with damage assesments and rebuilding stratgies for our clients....so i have been out of touch...i am regestered with CA and NCARB...will start the battery of nine after the first of the year..........why do you ask?
'Mold mitigation' must be a daily phrase in your work right now.

I ask because you cannot call yourself, or otherwise imply that you are, an architect in CA until you are registered by the state board.

I ask because you cannot call yourself, or otherwise imply that you are, an architect in CA until you are registered by the state board.

hhahhahahhahahhahhahhahhahhahahahhahhahahahhahaaha hahahhaahhahah.......i'm old and forgot they changed that...you know that there are thousands of non-lic architecs out there,....and at one time you didnt need a state issued paper......however ...eventhough i have been doing this for quite sometime...designer....is that better for you

Let's not call this an official "track", but a stretch of paved road on a piece of private property where a group of friends and people with similar interests congregate from time to time. I wasn't thinking of creating Fontana East, just a safe environment free from police intereference. This being the case, I am looking to avoid zoning, permits, and hopefully waivers...which leaves liability.

I thought about this on the flight home. I thought about logical options since my specialty is definitely not in real estate or legal matters as they pertain to the proposed endeavor. The only thing I could come up with was either placing the property in a trust or corporation, or selling shares in the land so in the event a lawsuit does occur, everyone would only be out what they paid for their individual share. It's a shame that we have to look for loopholes because our legal system allows people to sue when they choose to not take responsibility for their actions (like if someone choose to race and crashed their car because they lost control).

No money would be charged for the usage and if I have to go so far as to stay anonymous in the crowd so as not to "condone" any racing on the property, only one other board member could visually ID me.

hhahhahahhahahhahhahhahhahhahahahhahhahahahhahaaha hahahhaahhahah.......i'm old and forgot they changed that...you know that there are thousands of non-lic architecs out there,....and at one time you didnt need a state issued paper......however ...eventhough i have been doing this for quite sometime...designer....is that better for you
Could you design a superflat road with proper (sand) irrigation and super-wide lanes that would require very little maintenance? How about two lanes separated by a natural barrier of soft desert sand so if you did stray, you wouldn't interfere with the other driver?

If you can do this, you can call yourself Archimedes. :)

hhahhahahhahahhahhahhahhahhahahahhahhahahahhahaaha hahahhaahhahah.......i'm old and forgot they changed that...you know that there are thousands of non-lic architecs out there,....and at one time you didnt need a state issued paper......however ...eventhough i have been doing this for quite sometime...designer....is that better for you

The law varies from state to state, I know - some state's college graduates can practice once they have their diploma in their hands, but not CA. Even 'building designers' have been shunned from the process (and rightfully so) after the grandfather clause expired. Once all the states adopt and require NCARB there will be some consistency in the rules for licensure, no doubt.

Funny, it is usually the unlicensed folks who mock the rule...go figure :rolleyes: And lots comes with that state issued paper...like a lifetime of liability...'practicing' under someone else's license (which I assume you do)is a luxury in non-liability that most non-licensed folks take for granted.

Call yourself whatever you want, but realize that the CA state board does aggressively chase folks who use the title illegally...so you should probably ask yourself if the change in how you present your credentials publicly, to protect your ability to acquire that title in this state, is good for you. I too, have been doing this for a long time, and will defend the title I worked my ass of to get...it's not just an issue of semantics to me.

Good luck with the exam. It's a tough one :)

Let's not call this an official "track", but a stretch of paved road on a piece of private property where a group of friends and people with similar interests congregate from time to time. I wasn't thinking of creating Fontana East, just a safe environment free from police intereference. This being the case, I am looking to avoid zoning, permits, and hopefully waivers...which leaves liability.

I thought about this on the flight home. I thought about logical options since my specialty is definitely not in real estate or legal matters as they pertain to the proposed endeavor. The only thing I could come up with was either placing the property in a trust or corporation, or selling shares in the land so in the event a lawsuit does occur, everyone would only be out what they paid for their individual share. It's a shame that we have to look for loopholes because our legal system allows people to sue when they choose to not take responsibility for their actions (like if someone choose to race and crashed their car because they lost control).

No money would be charged for the usage and if I have to go so far as to stay anonymous in the crowd so as not to "condone" any racing on the property, only one other board member could visually ID me.

You're contemplating a huge risk - and one that's not cheap even excluding any of the municipal processes. Do you have any idea what ac paving and concrete cost? Grading operations? Fencing? Dust control strategies? Maintenance? It's a cool idea, but unfortunately one saddled with logistical, pragmatic and legal challenges.

I too, have been doing this for a long time, and will defend the title I worked my ass of to get...it's not just an issue of semantics to me.

Good luck with the exam. It's a tough one :)



i believe i have worked my ass off for it also.......

thanx for the well wishes....but back to the matter at hand........building a private track is a good idea and can be done.

Could you design a superflat road with proper (sand) irrigation and super-wide lanes that would require very little maintenance? How about two lanes separated by a natural barrier of soft desert sand so if you did stray, you wouldn't interfere with the other driver?

If you can do this, you can call yourself Archimedes. :)


lemmie think about it......

You're contemplating a huge risk - and one that's not cheap even excluding any of the municipal processes. Do you have any idea what ac paving and concrete cost? Grading operations? Fencing? Dust control strategies? Maintenance? It's a cool idea, but unfortunately one saddled with logistical, pragmatic and legal challenges.
What if one were to acquire a sponsor to assist in the cost of the road construction?

What if the road were seen as a cool and unique driveway to a future home? Not practical, but feasible if included in the cost of construction.

There are always options and alternatives. I will have more time to devote to this after the first of the year. Right now, just getting "feelers".

I appreciate everyone's feedback, no matter what the opinion is. I am hoping to hear something I have not heard or thought of yet.

i believe i have worked my ass off for it also....... Well don't feel too bad if you feel unappreciated at times after you're licensed... :)

.....building a private track is a good idea and can be done. I agree it can be done, and my only point was that it will take a lot more than placing pavement on dirt.

The project will simply require financial backing and a surety.

I appreciate everyone's feedback, no matter what the opinion is. I am hoping to hear something I have not heard or thought of yet.

We've kicked this idea around a lot. I have clients who own property all over Southern California (some of them attorneys), and we cannot easily (or cheaply) get around the liability component. The financial part isn't too difficult, and sponsorship/investors are viable options, and even designing/constructing the track itself is not rocket science...

I'd like to know if there is another way to pull this off....but even if there is a novel idea that appears to have some legitimacy, you'll be spending money to consult legal counsel on it.

We've kicked this idea around a lot. I have clients who own property all over Southern California (some of them attorneys), and we cannot easily (or cheaply) get around the liability component. The financial part isn't too difficult, and sponsorship/investors are viable options, and even designing/constructing the track itself is not rocket science...

I'd like to know if there is another way to pull this off....but even if there is a novel idea that appears to have some legitimacy, you'll be spending money to consult legal counsel on it.
Yeah, the legal/liability component makes it cost-prohibitive. I am looking for ways around that, loopholes if you will (nothing illegal), since that is the only way this could come to fruition. I am not wealthy by any stretch of the imagination, but I do want to keep what I have. The most I would want to spend with an attorney would be to obtain a "green light" that I covered my bases.

If all else fails, it will be a private track for use among friends and invited guests. Even this has inherent risks, albeit to a smaller degree.

if it is "not-for-profit" and "not open to the public" i think you could probibly mitigate most of the legal ramifications and liability.

i know this was a hundred years ago, but when i was in highschool we designed a 1/8th mile track to go behind the school. we got everything approved, zoning, insurance, the whole smack, then at the last minuite the school board decided to spend the money elsewhere.

if it is "not-for-profit" and "not open to the public" i think you could probibly mitigate most of the legal ramifications and liability.

Not very much...there is non-subrogated liability the owner assumes by allowing or condoning the activity on his property.

I don't know much, but I'd form some sort of limited liability company and transfer ownership of the land to the company to kinda distance yourself from it... ;)

That being said, if you put a piece of asphalt in your backyard and want to do donuts or drag race, you can, the hard part is the liability of letting someone else do it, for obvious reasons.

Btw, those 'waivers' are worth about as much as the price of the paper they are written on, I wouldn't rely on anything like that for protection of assets, you would have to carry some insurance to cover your ass.

Now, if I had the land and money, I would just do it and invite only my friends. Screw insurance and stuff. All I'd really do is make sure I got permits to do the asphalt/concrete. Sure, its risky, but not so much as many other things I've done in my life :) If my friends got hurt and wanted to sue me, I'd kill em. If their family tried to sue me, well, that would probably be expensive.

If you really want other people to race there, what I would do is start a company, form a plan, figure out the $$ involved, get permits/zoning, build the track, figure out how to recompense your overhead and expenses (race fee, sponsorship, selling sodas/hot dogs/blow, whatever), have an ambulance/etc.

In the end, it wouldn't be worthwhile, it'd be a black hole financially, and within ten years it'd be dust in the desert. ;) But hey, they say I'm a pessimist. At least it could be a tax writeoff.

Bombguy99z28, the LLC was one of the options I was looking into. Downside is I would easily loose the property in the event of a lawsuit.

Right, waivers will deter lawsuits but they will not prevent them.

The way its looking, if I do install some track I should consider all profitable ventures on this property while the getting is good, since it won't be mine for long...
A bookmaking operation and opium den should do well on-site, then I should be able to cover the losses. Opium has a higher margin unless I diversify the bookmaking operation to include all sporting events and not just the on-site races.

Of course The Den could have themed rooms as well...

An all nighter in Ft. Lauderdale on Saturday has caught up to me. Goodnight.

On HorsePower TV today, they did a story on an "Outlaw Dragstrip" that has been operating on private land since 1961. They did say it is located a few miles out of town. The town is Pascagoula, Ark or something like that. It is located in the Northeast part of Ark. Signs are posted "Race at your own risk". If yours will be located out of town, don't see where there would be much of a problem.
Good Luck!