turbo or pro charger
12-05-2005, 11:16 PM
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turbo or pro charger i was just wondering if u guys could help me decide on what to get turbo or pro charger i wanted to no which one will give more power and which one will be more reliable i have a 98 ss m6, 4.10 gears k&n intake syst, z06 clutch magna flow cat back. i will a preciate all r coments and help
12-06-2005, 01:07 AM
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12-06-2005, 03:57 AM
#5
Here is a list of items that I recently put together for building up the chassis prior to adding the horsepower. People are always asking the question of whether to go with a head and cam package, or go with a supercharger or turbocharger. There is no way you are to match the power of an ATI ProCharger with a head and cam package unless you use a pretty radical camshaft. Nitrous oxide could be used instead of going the forced induction route, with very good results at a fraction of the cost. A cold air kit would be required if you elect to use nitrous oxide instead of going the forced induction (ATI ProCharger) route. The ATI ProChargers come with a K&N cone filter. With forced induction, such as the ATI ProCharger, the power is always going to be there when you want it, with no nitrous bottles to constantly refill. A turbocharger could be used instead of an ATI ProCharger, but I am not convinced that the turbo kits currently out on the market will stand the test of time. TurboChargers go through extreme heat cycles, which can fracture the turbo housing mounts.
With the items listed below, your car would be quite capable of routinely running low eleven second 1/4 mile times, or faster, when combined with the M/T Street radial rear tires.
Everyone has their opinions on what is the best package, and here is mine.
1. Subframe Connectors - Absolutely necessary to keep your F Body from twisting and stretching. I have seen too many of these cars lose their door to fender gaps from having gone too long without subframe connectors. Subframe connectors will make the car handle better, you'll get fewer squeaks and the car will get better traction.
2. Torque Arm - BMR, Global West and Spohn all make torque arms that relocate the front mount off of the transmission by relocating the front mount back behind the transmission. The relocation of the front mount relieves the stress from the tailshaft of the transmission that the torque arm places on it, as a result of trying to contain the rear-end and it's rotational stresses. The stock torque arm is a stamped piece of sheetmetal that has broken apart for many people, and it sometimes takes out the driveshaft with it when it goes. By relocating the front mount of the torque arm behind the transmission, the geometry of the rear suspension becomes much better and really aids in hooking up the rear suspension. While replacing the torque arm, check the transmission mount, as the stock torque arm places a huge load on the mount, and the mount breaks quite often when using the factory torque arm. The adjustability of these aftermarket torque arms allows the user to adjust the pinion angle of the rear suspension which aids in finding traction.
3. Moser 12 bolt - Sooner or later the weak 7.5" Chevy S-10 derived 10 bolt is going to break. I wouldn't waste any money into attempting to build up the 10 bolt, it just doesn't work. There isn't one strong point to the stocker. For those of you with a six speed transmission, the 10 bolt has broken on many M6 cars with stock power. Expect the worse to happen... 3:73 gears in the Moser rear-end is a good compromise, especially when adding a lot of power to the engine.
4. Driveshaft - The stock GM driveshaft have broken for many enthusiast, both the steel and the 3.0" aluminum GM driveshafts are fairly weak. I recommend an aftermarket 3.5" aluminum driveshaft with a 1350 Yoke with a 1350 U Joint. Combined with the Moser 12 bolt with their supplied 1350 yoke, you will have a strong drivetrain.
5. Clutch and pressure plate - I recommend the Spec Stage 3 clutch and pressure plate. Expect some chatter for the first 500 miles, then it will be pretty smooth. I would also add the '01-'02 slave cylinder for the older models, and do the "drill mod" to the master cylinder. Do a search on this forum for the drill mod, and you will see what it entails.
At this point I believe the suspension is capable off supporting a lot of horsepower, and you can go straight to item 14.
For those of you who are dragstrip bound, I would also add a few additional items.
6. Adjustable lower control arms - The aftermarket lower control arms are much stouter, and will not flex like the factory lower control arms. Going with adjustable ones will allow the user to center the rear end in the wheelwell. The stock rear end position from the factory tends to be .5" towards the rear of the car. You really won't notice it until larger diameter tires are installed.
7. Lower control arm relocation brackets - Lower control arm relocation brackets are meant to be used when the car has been lowered, which alters the angle of the lower control arms. We have found that the relocation brackets also help in getting traction in non lowered cars. We use the weld on style that BMR offers.
8. Panhard bar - The factory pan hard bar is pretty flimsy and additional traction can be found by replacing the factory pan hard bar with a heavier duty aftermarket bar. The rear in these cars tends to sit closer to the right side, and by purchasing an adjustable pan hard bar, the rear-end can be centered in the body.
9. Strut Tower Brace - Eliminate flexing in the front end by adding an aftermarket strut tower brace. You will also notice that the car will handle better with a strut tower brace.
10. Battery box relocation - By relocating the battery to the trunk, you will remove a lot of weight off the front of the car and place the weight behind the rear-end, where it will aid in traction. The car will also be able to handle better with the weight relocation.
11. Rear coil spring air bags - By experimenting with adding more air to the right air bag than to the left one, better off the line traction can be found.
12. Adjustable shocks and front coil over springs - We use the Hal QA1 12 way adjustable shocks on our cars. It is easy to adjust these shocks for street use, and then readjust them for strip use by simply rotating the 12 way adjustable dial. The Hal QA1 front coil over springs allows the front end height to easily be adjusted.
13. K member - By replacing the front K member and upper and lower control arms with light weight aftermarket tubular ones, a lot of weight is removed from the front suspension. Since front end weight is removed, better off the line traction and better handling will occur. We have had good success with the BMR parts, and combined with the Hal QA1 shocks and coil over front springs, gives the car a much better chance of getting traction on the starting line.
14. Headers and cat back exhaust - Everyone has their favorites, but we have grown very fond of Hooker and Flowtech headers, and the Hooker and Magnaflow Cat Back exhaust systems.
Flowtech and Hooker ceramic coated headers fit very well, with excellent ground clearance. The Flowtech headers are priced very competitively with PaceSetter headers, yet they install and fit much better. The ceramic coatings go a long way towards keeping the exhaust temps in the pipes, keeping the engine bay cooler and improving internal exhaust scavenging. These two brands of headers will give you 2.5" more in ground clearance compared to SLP headers.
The Hooker and Magnaflow cat back exhaust systems give these cars a good muscular sound that will not drown out your stereo while driving down the road. The exhaust tubing is larger than the stock tubing and is mandrel bent, for better exhaust flow.
For those of you who want it loud. If you are looking for an exhaust system that will annoy everyone around you, the two above exhaust systems are not for you. The SLP "Loud Mouth" cat back is a good system for those of you who want to be noticed. When we have one of these cars on my dyno with a loud mouth exhaust system, everyone around our area can hear the car!
15. ATI ProCharger D-1SC eight rib supercharger - Simply the best and easiest way to get 450 to 500 rwhp out of your car in my opinion, when combined with headers and a good cat back exhaust system. The car will still see great part throttle gas mileage, overall driveability will still be excellent, and the power is always there when you want it. At 8 pounds of boost, the car will be very dependable, and with the twin high flow air to air intercoolers, unleaded premium is all you need to use. I recommend the ATI ProCharger D-1SC "tuner" kit, as the D-1SC can handle future mods much better than the P-1SC. You will need 42 lb fuel injectors, a 255 litre in tank fuel pump, and chassis dyno tuning with the "tuner" kit.
Hopefully this list will help you in your quest for having a quick car! Bob
With the items listed below, your car would be quite capable of routinely running low eleven second 1/4 mile times, or faster, when combined with the M/T Street radial rear tires.
Everyone has their opinions on what is the best package, and here is mine.
1. Subframe Connectors - Absolutely necessary to keep your F Body from twisting and stretching. I have seen too many of these cars lose their door to fender gaps from having gone too long without subframe connectors. Subframe connectors will make the car handle better, you'll get fewer squeaks and the car will get better traction.
2. Torque Arm - BMR, Global West and Spohn all make torque arms that relocate the front mount off of the transmission by relocating the front mount back behind the transmission. The relocation of the front mount relieves the stress from the tailshaft of the transmission that the torque arm places on it, as a result of trying to contain the rear-end and it's rotational stresses. The stock torque arm is a stamped piece of sheetmetal that has broken apart for many people, and it sometimes takes out the driveshaft with it when it goes. By relocating the front mount of the torque arm behind the transmission, the geometry of the rear suspension becomes much better and really aids in hooking up the rear suspension. While replacing the torque arm, check the transmission mount, as the stock torque arm places a huge load on the mount, and the mount breaks quite often when using the factory torque arm. The adjustability of these aftermarket torque arms allows the user to adjust the pinion angle of the rear suspension which aids in finding traction.
3. Moser 12 bolt - Sooner or later the weak 7.5" Chevy S-10 derived 10 bolt is going to break. I wouldn't waste any money into attempting to build up the 10 bolt, it just doesn't work. There isn't one strong point to the stocker. For those of you with a six speed transmission, the 10 bolt has broken on many M6 cars with stock power. Expect the worse to happen... 3:73 gears in the Moser rear-end is a good compromise, especially when adding a lot of power to the engine.
4. Driveshaft - The stock GM driveshaft have broken for many enthusiast, both the steel and the 3.0" aluminum GM driveshafts are fairly weak. I recommend an aftermarket 3.5" aluminum driveshaft with a 1350 Yoke with a 1350 U Joint. Combined with the Moser 12 bolt with their supplied 1350 yoke, you will have a strong drivetrain.
5. Clutch and pressure plate - I recommend the Spec Stage 3 clutch and pressure plate. Expect some chatter for the first 500 miles, then it will be pretty smooth. I would also add the '01-'02 slave cylinder for the older models, and do the "drill mod" to the master cylinder. Do a search on this forum for the drill mod, and you will see what it entails.
At this point I believe the suspension is capable off supporting a lot of horsepower, and you can go straight to item 14.
For those of you who are dragstrip bound, I would also add a few additional items.
6. Adjustable lower control arms - The aftermarket lower control arms are much stouter, and will not flex like the factory lower control arms. Going with adjustable ones will allow the user to center the rear end in the wheelwell. The stock rear end position from the factory tends to be .5" towards the rear of the car. You really won't notice it until larger diameter tires are installed.
7. Lower control arm relocation brackets - Lower control arm relocation brackets are meant to be used when the car has been lowered, which alters the angle of the lower control arms. We have found that the relocation brackets also help in getting traction in non lowered cars. We use the weld on style that BMR offers.
8. Panhard bar - The factory pan hard bar is pretty flimsy and additional traction can be found by replacing the factory pan hard bar with a heavier duty aftermarket bar. The rear in these cars tends to sit closer to the right side, and by purchasing an adjustable pan hard bar, the rear-end can be centered in the body.
9. Strut Tower Brace - Eliminate flexing in the front end by adding an aftermarket strut tower brace. You will also notice that the car will handle better with a strut tower brace.
10. Battery box relocation - By relocating the battery to the trunk, you will remove a lot of weight off the front of the car and place the weight behind the rear-end, where it will aid in traction. The car will also be able to handle better with the weight relocation.
11. Rear coil spring air bags - By experimenting with adding more air to the right air bag than to the left one, better off the line traction can be found.
12. Adjustable shocks and front coil over springs - We use the Hal QA1 12 way adjustable shocks on our cars. It is easy to adjust these shocks for street use, and then readjust them for strip use by simply rotating the 12 way adjustable dial. The Hal QA1 front coil over springs allows the front end height to easily be adjusted.
13. K member - By replacing the front K member and upper and lower control arms with light weight aftermarket tubular ones, a lot of weight is removed from the front suspension. Since front end weight is removed, better off the line traction and better handling will occur. We have had good success with the BMR parts, and combined with the Hal QA1 shocks and coil over front springs, gives the car a much better chance of getting traction on the starting line.
14. Headers and cat back exhaust - Everyone has their favorites, but we have grown very fond of Hooker and Flowtech headers, and the Hooker and Magnaflow Cat Back exhaust systems.
Flowtech and Hooker ceramic coated headers fit very well, with excellent ground clearance. The Flowtech headers are priced very competitively with PaceSetter headers, yet they install and fit much better. The ceramic coatings go a long way towards keeping the exhaust temps in the pipes, keeping the engine bay cooler and improving internal exhaust scavenging. These two brands of headers will give you 2.5" more in ground clearance compared to SLP headers.
The Hooker and Magnaflow cat back exhaust systems give these cars a good muscular sound that will not drown out your stereo while driving down the road. The exhaust tubing is larger than the stock tubing and is mandrel bent, for better exhaust flow.
For those of you who want it loud. If you are looking for an exhaust system that will annoy everyone around you, the two above exhaust systems are not for you. The SLP "Loud Mouth" cat back is a good system for those of you who want to be noticed. When we have one of these cars on my dyno with a loud mouth exhaust system, everyone around our area can hear the car!
15. ATI ProCharger D-1SC eight rib supercharger - Simply the best and easiest way to get 450 to 500 rwhp out of your car in my opinion, when combined with headers and a good cat back exhaust system. The car will still see great part throttle gas mileage, overall driveability will still be excellent, and the power is always there when you want it. At 8 pounds of boost, the car will be very dependable, and with the twin high flow air to air intercoolers, unleaded premium is all you need to use. I recommend the ATI ProCharger D-1SC "tuner" kit, as the D-1SC can handle future mods much better than the P-1SC. You will need 42 lb fuel injectors, a 255 litre in tank fuel pump, and chassis dyno tuning with the "tuner" kit.
Hopefully this list will help you in your quest for having a quick car! Bob
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12-06-2005, 08:37 AM
#8
Originally Posted by JAMES RODRIGUEZ
Go Procharger D1SC, with the SDCE spring tensioner and FMIC. That will be over 500 rwhp. Oh yeah I forgot to mention to get the 3 year warranty on the Procharger.
I would still go with the D-1SC though.... Bob
12-06-2005, 10:58 AM
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I agree search is your friend. this debate has really been beat to detah. that being said, EPP's post of what all is involved would hold true for either blower or turbo and is pretty darn accurate. Most aren't diligent enough to get all that done before plunking down on the Procharger(or turbo) and not all are neccressary. Some lessens you'll learn the hard way. I think the rear and the clutch just have to be done before any power adder. They just don't have the strength to hold up.
SDCE is a great kit.
As for the blower I have a three year warranty on my D1 but mine was a special exception. there was some mixup in ATI and they incorrectly advertised a 3 year warrenty on the f-0body kits. Long story short I raised a fuss when they tried to tell me the extended warranty was only for the P1s. They gave in on my case cause they did screw up. but I'm pretty sure they have fixed that loophole and you will not be able to get the 3 year on the D1. That being said I still suggest getting the D1.
Good luck,
Mike
SDCE is a great kit.
As for the blower I have a three year warranty on my D1 but mine was a special exception. there was some mixup in ATI and they incorrectly advertised a 3 year warrenty on the f-0body kits. Long story short I raised a fuss when they tried to tell me the extended warranty was only for the P1s. They gave in on my case cause they did screw up. but I'm pretty sure they have fixed that loophole and you will not be able to get the 3 year on the D1. That being said I still suggest getting the D1.
Good luck,
Mike
12-06-2005, 11:25 AM
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Originally Posted by white mongoose
i was just wondering if u guys could help me decide on what to get turbo or pro charger i wanted to no which one will give more power and which one will be more reliable i have a 98 ss m6, 4.10 gears k&n intake syst, z06 clutch magna flow cat back. i will a preciate all r coments and help
The turbo is not an easy DIY project and will add more weight and complexity. If you're not shooting for much higher than 600hp or so, I say the turbo isn't worth the trouble.
I'm a bottle guy myself. 500hp with nitrous will put buslengths on 500hp with a procharger.
12-06-2005, 12:01 PM
#13
Originally Posted by buschman
I agree search is your friend. this debate has really been beat to detah. that being said, EPP's post of what all is involved would hold true for either blower or turbo and is pretty darn accurate. Most aren't diligent enough to get all that done before plunking down on the Procharger(or turbo) and not all are neccressary. Some lessens you'll learn the hard way. I think the rear and the clutch just have to be done before any power adder. They just don't have the strength to hold up.
SDCE is a great kit.
As for the blower I have a three year warranty on my D1 but mine was a special exception. there was some mixup in ATI and they incorrectly advertised a 3 year warrenty on the f-0body kits. Long story short I raised a fuss when they tried to tell me the extended warranty was only for the P1s. They gave in on my case cause they did screw up. but I'm pretty sure they have fixed that loophole and you will not be able to get the 3 year on the D1. That being said I still suggest getting the D1.
Good luck,
Mike
SDCE is a great kit.
As for the blower I have a three year warranty on my D1 but mine was a special exception. there was some mixup in ATI and they incorrectly advertised a 3 year warrenty on the f-0body kits. Long story short I raised a fuss when they tried to tell me the extended warranty was only for the P1s. They gave in on my case cause they did screw up. but I'm pretty sure they have fixed that loophole and you will not be able to get the 3 year on the D1. That being said I still suggest getting the D1.
Good luck,
Mike
12-06-2005, 12:54 PM
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Originally Posted by white mongoose
i was just wondering if u guys could help me decide on what to get turbo or pro charger i wanted to no which one will give more power and which one will be more reliable i have a 98 ss m6, 4.10 gears k&n intake syst, z06 clutch magna flow cat back. i will a preciate all r coments and help
you are now about to jump in head first into a black hole...
right now you have right about 310rwhp if that.... and you say you want a SC or a TC.....
unless you have had other fast cars you have no idea what 500rwhp feels like ....
if you are just wanting a "peppy" street car you can make one very easily.. with a medium cam and a decent set of heads with a 100 dry shot...
youd be surprised.
with FI you not only have to get the motor to support the power but also you need to get that extra fuel to the motor.... which is expensive..
id say 2500 just for a good fuel system...
i just dont want you to get started wit thet D1 and then realize oh **** i've got tons more money to spend...
12-06-2005, 01:39 PM
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Originally Posted by ty_ty13
with these mods you've prolly spent right around $1500
you are now about to jump in head first into a black hole...
right now you have right about 310rwhp if that.... and you say you want a SC or a TC.....
unless you have had other fast cars you have no idea what 500rwhp feels like ....
if you are just wanting a "peppy" street car you can make one very easily.. with a medium cam and a decent set of heads with a 100 dry shot...
youd be surprised.
with FI you not only have to get the motor to support the power but also you need to get that extra fuel to the motor.... which is expensive..
id say 2500 just for a good fuel system...
i just dont want you to get started wit thet D1 and then realize oh **** i've got tons more money to spend...
you are now about to jump in head first into a black hole...
right now you have right about 310rwhp if that.... and you say you want a SC or a TC.....
unless you have had other fast cars you have no idea what 500rwhp feels like ....
if you are just wanting a "peppy" street car you can make one very easily.. with a medium cam and a decent set of heads with a 100 dry shot...
youd be surprised.
with FI you not only have to get the motor to support the power but also you need to get that extra fuel to the motor.... which is expensive..
id say 2500 just for a good fuel system...
i just dont want you to get started wit thet D1 and then realize oh **** i've got tons more money to spend...
You'd make for a horrible drug dealer.
Mike
12-06-2005, 02:11 PM
#18
For just calling up and ordering something that will bolt on and fit that will actually receive in less then 6 months, wont roast everything under your hood, easy to tune, easy to maintain and pretty reliable its really hard to beat a D1SC or Vortech setup.
12-06-2005, 03:51 PM
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Originally Posted by kp
For just calling up and ordering something that will bolt on and fit that will actually receive in less then 6 months, wont roast everything under your hood, easy to tune, easy to maintain and pretty reliable its really hard to beat a D1SC or Vortech setup.
if all goes well this will be in my car with a 408
12-06-2005, 03:58 PM
#20
Originally Posted by kp
For just calling up and ordering something that will bolt on and fit that will actually receive in less then 6 months, wont roast everything under your hood, easy to tune, easy to maintain and pretty reliable its really hard to beat a D1SC or Vortech setup.
Agreed!