Questions about larger cams
01-07-2006, 09:34 PM
#1
Questions about larger cams Hey guys, new here, but not to the LS1 world (been on LS2 for a while now). Anyway, I've been reading up on different cams and setups, to try and figure out what I'm going to be buying in a few months. A bit about the car before I go into questions - 1999 M6, LTs, Lane's duals, LS6 intake, lid, and a small street tune after the header install, and a Spec Stage 3 and 4.10s will be going in soon. Originally, I had wanted to go with a 228/228 cam, to keep everything nice and daily drivable, but the more reading I did, the more I thought that I'd be able to bump up to a slightly larger cam and stay drivable. Well, the Trans Am has turned into a garage queen with no need for daily driver requirements, and since that's the case, I want to go with an even larger cam - I'm hoping to do at least 440rwhp after heads, although power numbers aren't as important as the track numbers post-install.
My question mainly pertains to the "big" cams - the Magic Stick 3, the FM-JR 111 cam, and tha sort. The FMS cam is spec'd at 236"/239" .600"/.611" 111LSA, and the MS3 at 237/242 .603"/.609" 111LSA or 112LSA. Also looking at the Texas Speed 235/240 .598/.603 112LSA, which might be a bit more friendly towards spring life, but that's not really a big issue - if I need to buy new springs every 8,000 miles in order to run a larger cam, I will.
My first question is how a larger cam, like the MS3, compares to a smaller cam like the 228/228, as far as...well, everything. I know the MS3 will make more power, up higher, than the 228/228, but will also have a weaker low-end (and from what I've read, the lower LSA won't help a whole lot on that, either), and a rougher idle. The top of the powerband would also be a good bit higher - which I have a question about, also - for the MS3, with, I believe, more relative top-end pull compared to the smaller cam. The larger cam would also be rougher on the valvetrain, especially with a more aggressive ramp rate (which I don't completely understand, but have a good idea about). Also, does the MS3 require flycutting the pistons for clearance? I think the T-Rex does, but I'm not sure of which specs to look at to determine if flycutting is necessary or not.
The other question deals with spinning the engine up to 6800-7200rpms. I know that the specific point will be based on what a dyno shows, but what all is required in order to take an LS1 to 7000rpm? The standard cam swap stuff - dual springs, titanium retainers, hardened pushrods - but would I need go to into the engine and change out rod bolts, anything like that?
Ultimately, my goal is to have an all-engine street/strip monster (which is, I realize, a faily common goal) that can be driven 1000 miles for a trip to the beach if necessary. The biggest thought I have right now is why it seems like a whole lot of people - even those who have their LS1 as a weekend warrior - are running smaller cams, like a 230/232, or a 228/228, instead of a big cam. I realize some people don't want an excessive amount of power, just a nice boot to the ***, and some might be woried about valvetrain longevity and all, but it makes me a bit leery of going with something like the MS3 over the F13, if in reality the big cam isn't going to do anything other than give me a rougher idle than a smaller cam.
Any insights, specific or general, you all could give a guy new to the wide world of V8 building, would be much appreciated.
My question mainly pertains to the "big" cams - the Magic Stick 3, the FM-JR 111 cam, and tha sort. The FMS cam is spec'd at 236"/239" .600"/.611" 111LSA, and the MS3 at 237/242 .603"/.609" 111LSA or 112LSA. Also looking at the Texas Speed 235/240 .598/.603 112LSA, which might be a bit more friendly towards spring life, but that's not really a big issue - if I need to buy new springs every 8,000 miles in order to run a larger cam, I will.
My first question is how a larger cam, like the MS3, compares to a smaller cam like the 228/228, as far as...well, everything. I know the MS3 will make more power, up higher, than the 228/228, but will also have a weaker low-end (and from what I've read, the lower LSA won't help a whole lot on that, either), and a rougher idle. The top of the powerband would also be a good bit higher - which I have a question about, also - for the MS3, with, I believe, more relative top-end pull compared to the smaller cam. The larger cam would also be rougher on the valvetrain, especially with a more aggressive ramp rate (which I don't completely understand, but have a good idea about). Also, does the MS3 require flycutting the pistons for clearance? I think the T-Rex does, but I'm not sure of which specs to look at to determine if flycutting is necessary or not.
The other question deals with spinning the engine up to 6800-7200rpms. I know that the specific point will be based on what a dyno shows, but what all is required in order to take an LS1 to 7000rpm? The standard cam swap stuff - dual springs, titanium retainers, hardened pushrods - but would I need go to into the engine and change out rod bolts, anything like that?
Ultimately, my goal is to have an all-engine street/strip monster (which is, I realize, a faily common goal) that can be driven 1000 miles for a trip to the beach if necessary. The biggest thought I have right now is why it seems like a whole lot of people - even those who have their LS1 as a weekend warrior - are running smaller cams, like a 230/232, or a 228/228, instead of a big cam. I realize some people don't want an excessive amount of power, just a nice boot to the ***, and some might be woried about valvetrain longevity and all, but it makes me a bit leery of going with something like the MS3 over the F13, if in reality the big cam isn't going to do anything other than give me a rougher idle than a smaller cam.
Any insights, specific or general, you all could give a guy new to the wide world of V8 building, would be much appreciated.
01-07-2006, 11:10 PM
#2
!LS1 11 Second Club
You've got many things covered. For starters, 4.10's.
TRex doesn't need flycutting on stock heads by the way. Aftermarket/ported heads can also be run with it, but coordination with your head supplier will be crucial.
There have been lots of FM14/TSP MS3/TRex type debates. Also look at MTI's Y1.
Anyhow, all of these cams have the potential to get you in the 420-440ish range on stock heads. Your bolt ons will also also dictate how much more you're going to get too (my old setup went from 425 to 480 rwhp on the same heads and cam, only with swapping out things like LT brand (SLP to QTP HVMC), Intake (LS6 to FAST 90mm), tuning and degreeing the cam already installed helped tons also).
The TSP 231/237 is a cam with Lunati lobes that aren't as aggressive as the XE-R lobes used on most the cams offered these days based on Comp grinds. The cam has tons to offer up top and will maximize spring life.
Since the 231/237, TSP has switched to Comp XE-R type grinds (Torqer II, etc) to pick up more low end and drivability (at the expense of spring wear).
Futral uses CamMotion grinds, which are a bit less harsh on the valvetrain than Comp's XE-R's, and the FMS grinds are proving to be very drivable and offer great Tq.
PatrickG has had lots of success with the Thunder Racing TRak cam, which uses Comp LSK lobes on the intake. These differ from XE-R in that they're softer off the seat than XE-R's, but surpass XE-R's in aggressiveness as lift increases. For a 231/234 sized cam it's producing very stout numbers (.640 lift has incredible potential with heads like AFR and ETP 225's). Comp 921's are a must with this cam.
There's lots to choose from. You can make the power level you're asking for with stock heads and good LTs like QTP/Kooks, along with a 90mm intake. Properly matched heads/cam will take you into the 450-500rhwp range.
TRex doesn't need flycutting on stock heads by the way. Aftermarket/ported heads can also be run with it, but coordination with your head supplier will be crucial.
There have been lots of FM14/TSP MS3/TRex type debates. Also look at MTI's Y1.
Anyhow, all of these cams have the potential to get you in the 420-440ish range on stock heads. Your bolt ons will also also dictate how much more you're going to get too (my old setup went from 425 to 480 rwhp on the same heads and cam, only with swapping out things like LT brand (SLP to QTP HVMC), Intake (LS6 to FAST 90mm), tuning and degreeing the cam already installed helped tons also).
The TSP 231/237 is a cam with Lunati lobes that aren't as aggressive as the XE-R lobes used on most the cams offered these days based on Comp grinds. The cam has tons to offer up top and will maximize spring life.
Since the 231/237, TSP has switched to Comp XE-R type grinds (Torqer II, etc) to pick up more low end and drivability (at the expense of spring wear).
Futral uses CamMotion grinds, which are a bit less harsh on the valvetrain than Comp's XE-R's, and the FMS grinds are proving to be very drivable and offer great Tq.
PatrickG has had lots of success with the Thunder Racing TRak cam, which uses Comp LSK lobes on the intake. These differ from XE-R in that they're softer off the seat than XE-R's, but surpass XE-R's in aggressiveness as lift increases. For a 231/234 sized cam it's producing very stout numbers (.640 lift has incredible potential with heads like AFR and ETP 225's). Comp 921's are a must with this cam.
There's lots to choose from. You can make the power level you're asking for with stock heads and good LTs like QTP/Kooks, along with a 90mm intake. Properly matched heads/cam will take you into the 450-500rhwp range.
Last edited by SouthFL.02.SS; 01-08-2006 at 12:13 AM.
01-08-2006, 12:19 AM
#5
Originally Posted by SouthFL.02.SS
You've got many things covered. For starters, 4.10's.
TRex doesn't need flycutting on stock heads by the way. Aftermarket/ported heads can also be run with it, but coordination with your head supplier will be crucial.
There have been lots of FM14/TSP MS3/TRex type debates. Also look at MTI's Y1.
Anyhow, all of these cams have the potential to get you in the 420-440ish range on stock heads. Your bolt ons will also also dictate how much more you're going to get too (my old setup went from 425 to 480 rwhp on the same heads and cam, only with swapping out things like LT brand (SLP to QTP HVMC), Intake (LS6 to FAST 90mm), tuning and degreeing the cam already installed helped tons also).
The TSP 231/237 is a cam with Lunati lobes that aren't as aggressive as the XE-R lobes used on the monster cam. The cam has tons to offer up top and will maximize spring life.
Since the 231/237, TSP has switched to Comp XE-R type grinds to pick up more low end and drivability (at the expense of spring wear).
Futral uses CamMotion grinds, which are a bit less harsh on the valvetrain than Comp's XE-R's, and the FMS grinds are proving to be very drivable and offer great Tq.
PatrickG has had lots of success with the Thunder Racing TRak cam, which uses Comp LSK lobes on the intake. These differ from XE-R in that they're softer off the seat than XE-R's, but surpass XE-R's in aggressiveness as lift increases. For a 231/234 sized cam it's producing very stout numbers (.640 lift has incredible potential with heads like AFR and ETP 225's). Comp 921's are a must with this cam.
There's lots to choose from. You can make the power level you're asking for with stock heads and good LTs like QTP/Kooks, along with a 90mm intake. Properly matched heads/cam will take you into the 450-500rhwp range.
TRex doesn't need flycutting on stock heads by the way. Aftermarket/ported heads can also be run with it, but coordination with your head supplier will be crucial.
There have been lots of FM14/TSP MS3/TRex type debates. Also look at MTI's Y1.
Anyhow, all of these cams have the potential to get you in the 420-440ish range on stock heads. Your bolt ons will also also dictate how much more you're going to get too (my old setup went from 425 to 480 rwhp on the same heads and cam, only with swapping out things like LT brand (SLP to QTP HVMC), Intake (LS6 to FAST 90mm), tuning and degreeing the cam already installed helped tons also).
The TSP 231/237 is a cam with Lunati lobes that aren't as aggressive as the XE-R lobes used on the monster cam. The cam has tons to offer up top and will maximize spring life.
Since the 231/237, TSP has switched to Comp XE-R type grinds to pick up more low end and drivability (at the expense of spring wear).
Futral uses CamMotion grinds, which are a bit less harsh on the valvetrain than Comp's XE-R's, and the FMS grinds are proving to be very drivable and offer great Tq.
PatrickG has had lots of success with the Thunder Racing TRak cam, which uses Comp LSK lobes on the intake. These differ from XE-R in that they're softer off the seat than XE-R's, but surpass XE-R's in aggressiveness as lift increases. For a 231/234 sized cam it's producing very stout numbers (.640 lift has incredible potential with heads like AFR and ETP 225's). Comp 921's are a must with this cam.
There's lots to choose from. You can make the power level you're asking for with stock heads and good LTs like QTP/Kooks, along with a 90mm intake. Properly matched heads/cam will take you into the 450-500rhwp range.
Well, one thing I would like to do later down the road, once I'm more in the game, is start swapping pieces out - LS6 and stock TB to a FAST 90mm and a Nick Williams 90mm TB, from Pacesetter LTs to maybe Kooks or QTPs ($1000 was just too steep when I was looking for my exhaust components), just to see the sort of differences it'll make.
With something like these cams, I'm guessing that all have the same approximate peak numbers (assuming all supporting mods stay the same, only changing cams) but the power under the curve is where most of the change takes place? Along with that, it seems like the more aggressive lobes allow better driveabilty, but decrease spring life, and allow more mid-range torque, with the possibility of a bit lower top end numbers? I'm thinking something like the FM14 would be a good cam for the goal I want - good mid-range torque, not overly huge or with lobes and lift numbers that'll kill springs quickly. With something like that, what's the standard spring to use? Comp 918s? Manley duals? I read an interesting thread the other day where a guy picked up 10 or 15rwhp on the top end by swapping out springs, which ficed a "dead spot" that had been hurting him, and actually bumped the numbers up some.
I do appreciate the help - I'm sure threads like this are pretty common, but every time I read one, I come out with more questions than before I started reading.
01-08-2006, 12:32 AM
#6
!LS1 11 Second Club
F14 with PRC or Patriot Duals would be a fine match.
Comp 918's are up to the task, but I wouldn't go there. Duals offer you much more protection against dropping a valve.
If springs aren't up to the task, valves will float and power will be lost.
And yes, most of those cams are within range of each other, they will behave differently under the curve as you've pointed out.
And I did the same as yourself with my previous car. I did bolt-ons, cam, then heads, then bolt ons again.
Comp 918's are up to the task, but I wouldn't go there. Duals offer you much more protection against dropping a valve.
If springs aren't up to the task, valves will float and power will be lost.
And yes, most of those cams are within range of each other, they will behave differently under the curve as you've pointed out.
And I did the same as yourself with my previous car. I did bolt-ons, cam, then heads, then bolt ons again.
01-08-2006, 10:45 AM
#7
something you might consider with a track-driven inspiration regarding your power curve and all that gom...under the curve power is nice, but what seems to be the most dominant factor in a strong track cam is how long it will carry hp after it peaks. the majority of the cams you mentioned (with exception to the t-rex) will peak and then immediately fall off. say you choose a cam that doesn't peak AS MUCH, but it carries near peak hp 500 rpm longer...this will result in a faster car with the right shift points. say the ms3 will make 415 peak hp, but within 150 rpm of its peak it nosedives. something to consider. also, take a look at some lg motorsports cams.
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01-08-2006, 10:51 AM
#8
!LS1 11 Second Club
^
This was true of my experience with the TSP 231/237. It would hold peak decently.
Here are some old graphs.
http://home.att.net/~carlos.ramirez1...2/site1015.jpg
http://home.att.net/~carlos.ramirez1...2/site1048.jpg
I don't have a graph of the 480rwhp pull, but you get the idea.
This was true of my experience with the TSP 231/237. It would hold peak decently.
Here are some old graphs.
http://home.att.net/~carlos.ramirez1...2/site1015.jpg
http://home.att.net/~carlos.ramirez1...2/site1048.jpg
I don't have a graph of the 480rwhp pull, but you get the idea.
01-08-2006, 11:37 AM
#10
i run LG motorsport cams. i've had the g5x2 and the g5x3 on 112. both made great power(x3 makes a little more) they both drive great around town,pull hard at the track(or street) and dont shake the car too bad on idle. they are great cams with gobs of power. soon,i'll be trying the g5x4 cam.
01-08-2006, 11:57 AM
#11
Originally Posted by s346k
something you might consider with a track-driven inspiration regarding your power curve and all that gom...under the curve power is nice, but what seems to be the most dominant factor in a strong track cam is how long it will carry hp after it peaks. the majority of the cams you mentioned (with exception to the t-rex) will peak and then immediately fall off. say you choose a cam that doesn't peak AS MUCH, but it carries near peak hp 500 rpm longer...this will result in a faster car with the right shift points. say the ms3 will make 415 peak hp, but within 150 rpm of its peak it nosedives. something to consider. also, take a look at some lg motorsports cams.
Perhaps a stupid question, but why doesn't LG list the specs on the G5x3 and G5x4 cams? I'm thinking either the FM14, the G5x3, or the MS3. Definitely have to do a bit more research, especially with finding graphs to compare powerbands and peak and under the curve output, but it looks like it'll be one of those three.
01-08-2006, 12:04 PM
#12
!LS1 11 Second Club
^
LG likes to keep the specs of the newer grinds under wraps, as they're his proprietary grinds. Eventually, the specs leak out on forums like these and LG ends up posting them up anyhow. This is my guess.
LG likes to keep the specs of the newer grinds under wraps, as they're his proprietary grinds. Eventually, the specs leak out on forums like these and LG ends up posting them up anyhow. This is my guess.
01-08-2006, 03:42 PM
#14
Originally Posted by Element
Perhaps a stupid question, but why doesn't LG list the specs on the G5x3 and G5x4 cams?
01-08-2006, 04:07 PM
#15
!LS1 11 Second Club
G5X1
228
232
.588
.574
112/114
G5X2
232
240
.595
.608
112/114
G5X3
2xx
2xx
.600
.610
112/114
228
232
.588
.574
112/114
G5X2
232
240
.595
.608
112/114
G5X3
2xx
2xx
.600
.610
112/114
These aren't exactly small(er) than Futral, TSP, MTI, Thunder grinds.
I do agree that they aer kick *** cams though.
01-08-2006, 09:57 PM
#19
Originally Posted by SSilverSSurfer
just get an S cam...i have that and its bad ***
Also, on any of these larger cams - the G5x4, something like that - is flycutting necessary?
Last edited by Element; 01-08-2006 at 10:02 PM.