Tin Indian

I hooked up ATAP and was getting 3.5-4.0 degrees of K retard during the whole WOT run

Total timing stayed between 24-26 degrees

The average O2 sensor voltage between the two sensors averaged .885 throughout the run

LTrims stayed at 0 except they would go to 5.5 about every 18 frames or so, and then back to 0 again

Gas was 93 octane

The 98s seem to have more timing than later years. 24-26 degrees is a fairly high amount of timing with continual 3.5 to 4 degrees of K retard.

How do these numbers look to you.
Is the K retard I am getting too much?

Thanks,
Ron

<small>[ April 17, 2003, 07:58 AM: Message edited by: Tin Indian ]</small>

Murdock

iTrader: (2)

That's a lot of knock retard.
When you say the LTs were moving 0 to 5.5, was that during WOT, or during cruising?

If you don't hear any "false" knock sources like banging y-pipe, I'd try cleaning the MAF sensor and re-run. Dirty MAF has caused me all sorts of bogus peformance with matching bogus data logs.

SB

Have you put it on the dyno and hooked it up to a wideband to read A/F? I went thru the same thing. I was getting 3.5 to 4.0 knock with my average o2 of .895. When I got on the dyno my A/F with this average o2 was 13.7 <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="gr_eek2.gif" /> way to lean. I got my A/f down to 12.9 with a MAFT and my o2 are now around .965 with no knock so I don't put too much faith in what alot of people seem to thing is the right numbers for o2's of like .89. The only way to really measure is a wideband.

Ron, if you have a Maft, you might want to richen it up a little at WOT and see if the knock goes away.

steve <img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/gr_cheers.gif" />

<small>[ April 17, 2003, 08:49 AM: Message edited by: SB ]</small>

Tin Indian

When you say the LTs were moving 0 to 5.5, was that during WOT, or during cruising?

That was at full throttle. The LTs were always at zero, but would go to 5.5 after about 15 or more frames, then back to zero for another 15-18 frames. In other words, they stayed at 0 almost all the time.

Have you put it on the dyno and hooked it up to a wideband to read A/F?

Sure have not. This has been a "mail order" tuning with Thunder. I just e-mailed the files to Geoff at Thunder to see what he thinks. The car also shifts at 6,000 rpm. Too low for my combo.

I don't have a MAFT

Ron,

Tin Indian

RPM * TPS * Gear * LTB2 * LTB1 * O2B2 * O2B1 * O2/Avg * Retard * Timing

3320 100 1 5.5 2.3 .835 .890 .863 .0 25.0
4297 100 1 .0 .0 .835 .905 .870 .2 25.0
4909 100 1 .0 .0 .845 .915 .880 1.2 25.0
5988 100 1 .0 .0 .840 .905 .873 3.3 24.0
6065 100 2 .8 .8 .700 .880 .790 3.3 24.0
5226 100 2 .0 .0 .860 .915 .888 3.1 24.0
4909 100 2 .0 .0 .865 .915 .890 2.9 24.5
4279 100 2 .0 .0 .865 .925 .895 2.7 25.0
4273 100 2 .0 .0 .860 .915 .888 3.9 24.5
4478 100 2 .0 .0 .860 .910 .885 3.9 24.5
4672 100 2 .0 .0 .870 .905 .888 3.8 24.5
4872 100 2 .0 .0 .870 .905 .888 3.6 25.0
5072 100 2 .0 .0 .870 .915 .893 3.3 25.0
5284 100 2 .0 .0 .875 .910 .893 3.1 24.5
5476 100 2 .0 .0 .880 .905 .893 3.0 26.0
5647 100 2 .0 .0 .880 .905 .893 2.9 25.5
5834 100 2 5.5 .0 .895 .905 .900 3.8 24.5
6038 100 3 .0 .0 .890 .900 .895 3.9 25.0
5610 100 3 5.5 .0 .895 .915 .905 3.6 24.5
5695 100 3 1.6 .8 .900 .925 .913 3.4 25.0
4258 100 3 1.6 1.6 .905 .915 .910 4.0 24.0
4284 100 3 .0 .0 .900 .905 .903 3.9 25.5
4398 100 3 .0 .0 .890 .905 .898 3.9 25.0
4465 100 3 .0 .0 .895 .900 .898 3.6 25.0
4528 100 3 .0 .0 .890 .900 .895 3.9 25.5
4606 100 3 .0 .0 .890 .905 .898 3.8 24.5
4666 100 3 .0 .0 .900 .905 .903 4.0 24.0
4746 100 3 .0 .0 .890 .900 .895 3.7 24.5
4814 100 3 .0 .0 .885 .900 .893 3.9 25.0
4876 100 3 .0 .0 .890 .890 .890 3.9 24.0
4937 100 3 .0 .0 .895 .895 .895 3.7 24.0
4999 100 3 .0 .0 .890 .905 .898 3.4 25.0
5060 100 3 .0 .0 .890 .895 .893 4.0 24.0
5125 100 3 .0 .0 .895 .885 .890 3.9 24.5
5189 100 3 .0 .0 .885 .900 .893 4.0 24.5
5253 100 3 .0 .0 .885 .895 .890 3.7 25.0
5296 100 3 .0 .0 .890 .895 .893 3.5 25.5
5361 100 3 .0 .0 .880 .895 .888 3.5 24.0
5419 100 3 .0 .0 .885 .890 .888 3.3 24.0
5480 100 3 .0 .0 .880 .890 .885 3.9 24.0
5523 100 3 .0 .0 .880 .890 .885 3.8 24.0
5589 100 3 5.5 2.3 .900 .885 .893 3.6 25.0
5635 100 3 1.6 .8 .885 .890 .888 3.4 24.5
5686 100 3 .0 .0 .880 .895 .888 3.9 24.5
5736 100 3 .0 .0 .890 .890 .890 3.6 25.0
5782 100 3 .0 .0 .885 .875 .880 4.0 25.0
5846 100 3 5.5 .0 .895 .890 .893 3.7 26.0

<small>[ April 17, 2003, 09:03 AM: Message edited by: Tin Indian ]</small>

Tin Indian

I don't know how to make this look better after pasteing it here from an Excel file.

Slowhawk

iTrader: (12)

It could be a little lean or you have the exhaust banging the floor giving a false knock.

TreeGreenZ

Find some way to get 95 or 100 octane fuel and put in it. If the knock goes away you could have false knock....If not, it could be from a pulley or something????

Torqued

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by TreeGreenZ:
<strong> Find some way to get 95 or 100 octane fuel and put in it. If the knock goes away you could have false knock....If not, it could be from a pulley or something???? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Its the other way around...

TreeGreenZ

<img border="0" alt="[bang head]" title="" src="graemlins/gr_banghead.gif" />

oops

hehe, ya if it doesn't go away, my bad

Tin Indian

I don't think I am getting any false knock, and I have no exhaust banging. I think maybe I only have a couple of options.

Put the car on the dyno with wideband. [If] the fuel ratio is ok....Then have some timing takin out of it.
____________

killer01ws6 wrote: "Typically, 12.8 is the best torque and 13.2 is the best HP"

TreeGreenZ

hehe, you didn't read that thread about 98's, and ther <4 degrees of knock problem did you. Seems that we all have that problem, and has nothing to do with mods. I dunno what the problem is....

Tin Indian

chikn...

I wasn't ignoring you. And thanks for the link.

You know, it does appear that the 98s have more timing advance than the later models.

Increase the CR a little in a 98 (like I did), and then we get some K retard.

TreeGreenZ

Ya but people in that thread, have cars that are stock with a near constant 3.9 degrees of knock :eek

chikn are you installing the newer style sensor, like from a 99 or 2000

Let us all know how that goes.

Tin Indian

chikn...

Let us know how that works out.

I have heard that wrapping the knock sensor threads with several layers of teflon tape prior to tightening them (and then tighten them looser than stock torque value) will cause them to be less sensitive.

I do know that this works on Buick Turbo motors too.

Ron,

gomer

iTrader: (13)

Hey Ron! we are going to the dyno next saturday, mail me and I'll fill you in on the details. I know alot of people are saying you have "false knock" but I have ridden in the car and I heard the detonation with my own ears. You'll see when we get it on the wideband that the car is just running a little lean and when the fuel curve is fattened up, all will be well!
Scott.

Tin Indian

Sounds good....

The Dragon

iTrader: (6)

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Tin Indian:
<strong> RPM * TPS * Gear * LTB2 * LTB1 * O2B2 * O2B1 * O2/Avg * Retard * Timing

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Swap gear with fuel cell trim. See what cell the Lterms go positive . . . by your tps, you should be a costant 22 with no changes all the way down the cell trims.

What did your part-throttle Lterms in cells 4 thru 16 average?

Scalpel

iTrader: (4)

Any updates on how to fix this, new sensors, de-sensitize it?