General Maintenance & Repairs - No start and engine will not rotate.

Went to start my car a little while ago and it wouldn't start up.

I turn the key and it will not rotate.
I hear the pump prime.
The battery has been swapped with a known good battery.
I double checked the contacts.

I'm making sure I push the clutch in ALL the way and when I turn the key I get no rotation.I have power to all accessories.When I turn the key foward and release,I hear a low volume rumble or electrical sounding rumble that is coming from what seems like under the cowl area on the driver's side OR possibly deep inside the dash in that same area.

Can't tell for sure which side of the firewall its even coming from but,you can feel it if you put your hand on the cowl righ in that area.

It does it every time I turn the key foward and the release.It lasts only a couple of seconds and it is NOT the rat tat tat tat sound you get when your battery is low or shot.

I'm wondering if its the security pass key set up thing or something else...

Only other symptom I have had was a VERY VERY short hesitation about a week ago when I went to start the car.Didn't do it again and now it won't start...I'm pretty sure it could be related..It was such a small hesitation that nobody I was with even noticed it.

Anways,thanks for any help you might be able to throw my way!

Thanks Techers! :hail:

does your security light come on in the dash? i get the same thing once in a while. i just wait 3mins and then try it again. VATS sucks :mad:

The light is on while I am trying to start it as is the service engine soon light...I'm not sure if it has always come on just for the fact of me turning the ignition foward...as in the normal "light check" the dash always does when starting the car...

The light has NEVER come on while driving...What bite is that I don't have a 2nd key to try it out!!!

Hey is this normal?

While loosening the Pos terminal the wrench accidently touch the AC "can" and gave us one hell of a quick shock (the neg was still connected...I know...I know....Should have disconnected it 1st).But should it be that dangerous or has a ground failed somewhere???

Thanks!

yeah thats normal like you said you should just disconnect the negative first ive actually seen wrenches weld themselves to the fenderwell when that happens

By not rotate do you mean that the starter is engaging but not turning the motor over? Or is the starter not moving at all?

By not rotate do you mean that the starter is engaging but not turning the motor over? Or is the starter not moving at all?

The starter is not moving at all that I can tell...I have heard starters rotate but not engage as they should and it usually sounds like if your triggering a power drill...or a harsh grinding....

Anyone know what could be in that driver side area just under the cowl or under the dash that could cause a no start situation and that wierd noise?

Thanks...

if this was an older car, id say starter. but with all the extra electronics its hard to tell. try hitting the starter with a hammer or a blunt object while someone is turning the key. or maybe your flywheel ?

Will the motor actually turn when u put a socket on the crank bolt & try to turn it by hand?

Will the motor actually turn when u put a socket on the crank bolt & try to turn it by hand?

Oh yeah...Sorry if I made it sound like if it literally won't turn...I meant that the motor or starter will not engage....

So far there seems to be a noise coming from deep in the dash,I swapped every fuse under the hood and in the cabin with known good ones.The noise is low and repeated sounding...It happens with the key turned foward ("On" position) and turned back (accessories).

I noticed that when you turn the key fully foward ("start") all my indicator lights on the dash turn off EXCEPT for the "security" and "Service Engine Soon" lights.

I called my brother (lives in another state) and asked him to go out to his car (6spd LS1) and turn the key foward to the start position (clutch not in so it won't start) and tell me what lights are still illuminated if any..

He says only the "SES" light but NO "Security" light...So,it look like this is going to possibly be a VATS problem...Like ""Powered by V8" mentioned.

I'm thinking i'm going to try a new key from the dealer Monday or Tuesday and if that doesn't work,I am thinking about trying the bypass method by finding the correct resistance to the pellet on the key and patching in a resistor of the same rating...

Anyone try this??How did it work out?

Thanks for any info and ideas!

had a similiar problem a while back it turned out that the gauge fuse inside the car was bad and caused the engine no to rotate . weird i know but that was my problem i suggest u should try this before ordering a new key

had a similiar problem a while back it turned out that the gauge fuse inside the car was bad and caused the engine no to rotate . weird i know but that was my problem i suggest u should try this before ordering a new key

Thanks for the tip but yeah,I checked all the fuses I could find...I check both fuse boxes under the hood and the side fuse panel by the driver's door...

I got a new key cut this morning and it is still a no go. :bang:

I went ahead after trying the key and used some pressurized electronics cleaner in case there was some sort of obstruction in the key cylinder.No go.

So now I'm thinking key cylinder or the BCM itself???I see BIG dollar signs in my future!!! :cry:

Mine is doing the samething, when I rotate the key to start the engine nothing happens. I've already put a new battery in it so next I'm going to try a new key since I don't have another one to try either. If it's not the key it's probably the lock cylinder, my local dealership quoted me $400.00 to change out the cylinder.

my local dealership quoted me $400.00 to change out the cylinder.
:cry:

Just got back from buying the key $35.00 + tax. The lock cylinder is $66.00, when you replace the cylinder you also have to replace the key. The steering wheel puller is about $25.00, I'm going to do it myself if it needs to be replaced.

:cry:

Just got back from buying the key $35.00 + tax. The lock cylinder is $66.00, when you replace the cylinder you also have to replace the key. The steering wheel puller is about $25.00, I'm going to do it myself if it needs to be replaced.

Thats what I'm looking at having to have to do...Plus I got a$$ raped with my key..$50.Dealer prices...gee,I'm surprised... :eyes:

Also still looking into bypassing the system with a resistor wired into the circuit to "trick" the VATS system...sure would be cheaper...

AND!I keep finding conflicting info concerning wether you can just have it tuned out...and if you can...how and with what??Info I keep finding is for LT1s...

had a similiar problem a while back it turned out that the gauge fuse inside the car was bad and caused the engine no to rotate . weird i know but that was my problem i suggest u should try this before ordering a new key

Not as weird as you think, without the gauges hooked up most cars will not start. For example when I removed my gauges from my Charger (1973) I had to move the car, wouldnt start... kept thinking "wtf is going on?", finally I hooked up the gauges (and held them up with my other hand) and got the car started.

When I took a good look at it again, 6/8 gauge pair of wires ran through the dash, Im guessing it was inline with the ignition soleniod.

Its some safety issue, I guess they dont want you driving if your gauges arent displaying.

Well the key wasn't the issue so now I get to change out the lock cylinder. Probably a good thing I bought the Chiltons manual.

Well the key wasn't the issue so now I get to change out the lock cylinder. Probably a good thing I bought the Chiltons manual.

WAIT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I just fixed mine!I can save you alot of time and effort but you have to be willing to do things a little "ghetto style" :D

WARNING!I took my chances with the air bag,do this at YOUR OWN RISK!

I went outside with my multimeter,I was curious as to wether the cylinder was truly at fault or something deeper (BCM module or harness).

I took off the knee panel (be careful,don't rip the wire for the hatch release!!)and the 2nd panel with the two plastic screws..

Now you can see all the wiring coming out of the steering column.

There are two small white wires incased in a orange wire jacket.These are coming off the ignition cylinder as I understand it.They connect via a small electrical plug to to the wires leading off to the BCM.If I remember the wires that go to the BCM are white w/black stripe and like a purple w/white stripe.

I unplugged the connection between the cylinder and the BCM.

I probed the connector from the cylinder with my multimeter.As I understand it,if you insert the key into the ignition and then probe the wires at the end of the connector,you should be getting the same resistance that your key is rated at.i was getting nothing.I tested with two different keys and in all positions.Still nothing.

At this point I figured that its kinda obvious now that the wiring coming from the key cylinder or the cylinder itself is bad.This was a relief to me because that means its nothing deeper such as the BCM module or harness or whatever else is in there... ;)

If you get a signal that matches your keys resistance when testing the plug coming from the cylinder,then your key/cylinder are working and the problem is somewhere else...As far as I understand it.

I was going to do the resistor bypass VATS bypass (how to 4th Gen LT1 F-body Tech Articles VATS.url) by info from this guy's website but was running into problems trying to find the correct resistor to match my key and cylinder setup.Then it hit me...My new spare key can be the resistor!:D

I clipped the plug coming from the key cylinder leaving a couple inches of wire attached to the plug connector.I stripped a little of the tips of the white wires that are still attached to the plug connector.

I then placed the wires one on either side of the resistor pellet on my spare key and taped them into place with electrical tape.

I then tested the connector by probing the connector that is now attached to the spare key with tape with the multimeter...

Bingo!The connector was now giving out the correct resistance of the key.

I went and secured the key VERY tightly with electrical tape to the connector.I didn't want to solder it because I didn't want to damage the plastic of the pellet on my new spare key that my dealer charged me $50 for.;)

I went and connected my new spare key with the taped connector (lets call it my "VATS Security Ignition Control Flux Capacitor Module" :jest: ) under the dash to the connector that leads off to the BCM module.

I taped off the wires originally coming from the cylinder and out the column that I had clipped so that they are no longer exposed.

I then used my original key and fired her up!

I have ran the car several times and there are no longer any problems and the security light is gone...She starts first time every time so far...I hope I don't jinx myself but...;)

I took some crappy photos with my cell to give a basic idea of what I did...I'll post them later if anyone is interested.

I know it sounds "ghetto" but,it only costs me the price of a new key and for those of you that have a spair key to start with,this fix will be absolutley free...It really is tight and secure,nobody can see it and most of all so far...it works!

Compared to having to pull the steering wheel and buying a new key cylinder set at dealer prices....I think I did OK.

Those of you that don't have multimeter...buy one.

I am REALLY RETARDED when it comes to electronics so,I'm surprised the idea worked!I just tried to read as much as I could.1st time using the meter as well...it had been sitting there for a while!:D It was good to find out that it was the cylinder before tearing into everything.

Wether you try it or not...it works for now until I get it fixed right...but depending on how much that is,it might just stay there for a good while.

Elite_Hot_Rod

Let us know how it goes...If this is something you are interested in trying,I hope I caught you in time.

If nothing else,this idea can be a good "emergency" trick to try when in a pinch!VERY BASIC tools needed..screwdriver/plyers to remove panel,electrical tape and something to cut/splice wires...

Here is what it looks like...

Its the wires from the cylinder that come out under the dash still connected to the plug connector.They are taped to the key one wire on each side of the resistor pellet on the key.After taping it tightly,I tested it before installing to make sure it was putting out the correct resistance with the multimeter.
http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/10/web/2086000-2086999/2086655_242_full.jpg

This is the other end of the connection that leads off to the BCM module...
http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/10/web/2086000-2086999/2086655_241_full.jpg

This is the "Flux Capacitor Key" installed to the BMC connection..
http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/10/web/2086000-2086999/2086655_240_full.jpg

And this is whats left of the wires incased in orange coming from the cylinder..I just taped it off.
http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_images/10/web/2086000-2086999/2086655_239_full.jpg

Told ya it looks GHETTO but like I said,IT WORKS! :rock:

Wow that took some ingenuity, that's cool. I think I'm going to go ahead and change out the lock cylinder though.

Wow that took some ingenuity, that's cool. I think I'm going to go ahead and change out the lock cylinder though.

Sounds good and don't forget to post up about how it goes...I still would like to go ahead and fix mine the correct way myself and your info could come in VERY handy!

Good luck-Milt

Maybe I over-read this... but why not get a resistor equal to the resistance of the spare-key and put that in place?

Maybe I over-read this... but why not get a resistor equal to the resistance of the spare-key and put that in place?

That was my first choice in doing this but,I was having problems trying to find the correct resistor here locally..and my being "electrically challenged" ( ;) ) didn't help things either when trying to explain to the local radioshack and a couple other places as to what I needed specifically..I'm still trying to figure out if the problems in locating a correct resistor here was on my end or on the end of the local electrical shops...at the very least I would go with both ends.. :D

From what I understand and read,the resistance values are kinda specific (that being the reason the security system works in the first place..) and also have a very small amount of variance allowed.

Being that my car has been sitting for 5 days or so,I looked at the key and said to myself..."Self?;)Isn't that your resistor right there??"...So I rigged it this way.

Besides,everything I did can be reversed except the wires being cut from the key cylinder (which would need to be replaced and were the cause of the problem in the first place).

Laters...

That was my first choice in doing this but,I was having problems trying to find the correct resistor here locally..and my being "electrically challenged" ( ;) ) didn't help things either when trying to explain to the local radioshack and a couple other places as to what I needed specifically..I'm still trying to figure out if the problems in locating a correct resistor here was on my end or on the end of the local electrical shops...at the very least I would go with both ends.. :D

From what I understand and read,the resistance values are kinda specific (that being the reason the security system works in the first place..) and also have a very small amount of variance allowed.

Being that my car has been sitting for 5 days or so,I looked at the key and said to myself..."Self?;)Isn't that your resistor right there??"...So I rigged it this way.

Besides,everything I did can be reversed except the wires being cut from the key cylinder (which would need to be replaced and were the cause of the problem in the first place).

Laters...

Alright, understood. I think this might help somewhat if you havent already seen it: VATS key values (http://shbox.com/1/4th_gen_tech2.html#pass_key)

Alright, understood. I think this might help somewhat if you havent already seen it: VATS key values (http://shbox.com/1/4th_gen_tech2.html#pass_key)

Yeah,thats where I got some of my info...I posted that earlier..Good site!

wow u are pretty ghetto.....lol

hahaha i cant believe u paid that for the key u tard...you should've just come to me i could've got it for half the price u paid

wow u are pretty ghetto.....lol

hahaha i cant believe u paid that for the key u tard...you should've just come to me i could've got it for half the price u paid

Screw that Steve,I'm going to hit you up for the ignition cylinder later on!!;)

Were you even there Monday 830am or so?I didn't see your SS anywhere....hmmmm

Mach1Killer
I had the same thing last week with the gauge fuse!! I was just about ready to replace the ignition mod that hooks to the ignition cyliner.

I had problems two nights ago with the starter barely moving. Found the connection on the battery had just a slight bit of corrosion scratched the h^& out of the connection and it started. So something easy to try!! This is on a brand new battery also.

MJK major kudos goes out for that one!!!!

Brad

MJK I just went through the same exact process you did! I was really mad at first because I didn't know what the hell was wrong with my car! I ended up putting a resistor that was the same as my key into the plug that runs to the BCM. Works like a charm! I think I will end up hiding a switch somewhere under my dash that interrupts the resistor, so that way I can turn it off and have less of a chance of someone stealing my car(since the resistor in the key is a "dummy" now). By the way, you can solder resistors end to end to achieve the resistance you need! Oh and most resistors have a 5% tolerance as well!

If I were to change out the lock cylinder, how would the bcm know what the resistance of the new key set should be? Would it need to be reprogrammed, or do you just take one of the keys that comes with the new ignition cylinder set to the dealer with your old key and have a copy of the new key made with the old resistance? What would happen if you lost your keys? Is the resistance of your key "on file" somewhere according to your VIN?

MJK I just went through the same exact process you did! I was really mad at first because I didn't know what the hell was wrong with my car! I ended up putting a resistor that was the same as my key into the plug that runs to the BCM. Works like a charm! I think I will end up hiding a switch somewhere under my dash that interrupts the resistor, so that way I can turn it off and have less of a chance of someone stealing my car(since the resistor in the key is a "dummy" now). By the way, you can solder resistors end to end to achieve the resistance you need! Oh and most resistors have a 5% tolerance as well!

If I were to change out the lock cylinder, how would the bcm know what the resistance of the new key set should be? Would it need to be reprogrammed, or do you just take one of the keys that comes with the new ignition cylinder set to the dealer with your old key and have a copy of the new key made with the old resistance? What would happen if you lost your keys? Is the resistance of your key "on file" somewhere according to your VIN?

I believe the resistance is programmed into your BCM (not sure though). I know some people get VATS programmed out of their BCM.

I believe the resistance is programmed into your BCM (not sure though). I know some people get VATS programmed out of their BCM.

I don't know if its so much they get the VATS programmed out of their BCM as much as they get their BCM programmed out of their PCM...I think.

I think what the dealer does since the BCM is a ONE TIME program module,they have to order your ignition cylinder/key set according to the resistance of your current set.

I think they can get your resistance value off your VIN# or maybe by testing your original cylinder?Then they order the correct set out of 15 possiblities they have.That way it matches your current BCM.

I have heard that they have some sort of a device called the "interrogator" something or else and I bet that reads the BCM.If not,its probably an over glorified multimeter..Those are my theories... :D

I don't know if its so much they get the VATS programmed out of their BCM as much as they get their BCM programmed out of their PCM...I think.

I think what the dealer does since the BCM is a ONE TIME program module,they have to order your ignition cylinder/key set according to the resistance of your current set.

I think they can get your resistance value off your VIN# or maybe by testing your original cylinder?Then they order the correct set out of 15 possiblities they have.That way it matches your current BCM.

I have heard that they have some sort of a device called the "interrogator" something or else and I bet that reads the BCM.If not,its probably an over glorified multimeter..Those are my theories... :D

What I was saying is (as far as I know), the lock cylinder doesnt have anything to do with reading the resistance (as in it doesnt determine if the resistance is right or wrong), that the BCM or VATS module reads the resistance. So if anything they would test your key.

Hi Folks
Just a little info for people that might need help. To get a Resistor value - use the following formulas:

(R1+R2..Ry)/X = R3 ex: (750+1000)/2 = 875 ohm these Resistors are parallel – “X” is the number of resistors in parallel
R1 +R2 = R3 ex: 750+1000= 1750 ohm - these resistors are in series
Bill :usa:

Did you get it fixed? Mine had the same problem I was chasing around forever...it ended up being an ignition relay.

What I was saying is (as far as I know), the lock cylinder doesnt have anything to do with reading the resistance (as in it doesnt determine if the resistance is right or wrong), that the BCM or VATS module reads the resistance. So if anything they would test your key.

Ahhh ok...

Did you get it fixed? Mine had the same problem I was chasing around forever...it ended up being an ignition relay.

Who?