Advanced Engineering Tech - Nitromethane as a power adder?

anybody ever experiment with just spraying nitro? i figure since it A) carries its own oxygen and B) being combustable, it would be a worthwhile power adder in itself. ive been pondering its usefulness as a substitute fo n2o.
the things that are taken into account are its volatility, low a/f, its uniqueness as a fuel, and a couple other things. any thoughts?

I had thought about it too. Being that 100% nitromethane is close to 50% oxygen by weight. Price Chemical makes several blends that are compatible with gasoline as well as 100% nitro. But it's to be mixed with the fuel. What I was thinking of was using a separate fuel cell containing the nitro mix with a fuel pump and an extra injector to spray the nitro mix. The trick comes in a/f ratio, as I have no idea how nitro blended fuel burns, and I don't know anyone that does have nitro experience. I know it requires 1.2:1 mix for stoich. I had calculated that, in theory 1lb/min of nitro would yield 56.75hp comparing nitrous oxide's oxygen content by weight and flow in reference to horsepower. I have not proven that nor tested it, but I would like to. I don't know the burn rate of nitro compared to gasoline with nitrous either. I just never got around to it, mainly because Price Chemical requires a minimum order of 4 gallons I think, and based on my calculations I would only be using ounces at a time.

I've read on some UK forums where a guy was getting huge gains with nitro, so it's definitely doable in my opinion. It would be an interesting project to me anyway, and I still will play with it once my other things are finished!

Supposedly nitro is over 2x more powerful per volume as race gas. Someone will chime in and break it down to 1/1000ths and give the specific figure, but its greater than 2x.

I figure if someone took one of those 2500rwhp rigs and converted them to nitro, your right at 6000rwhp right there.

My thing is what many of us aren't thinking about or at least i havent' seen a significance placed on it, is what the driveshafts, and axles must look like to pull this off. Cause the tq figures are up there.

Were talking about smaller motors that need nitrous injection to spin the turbo's up, now were talkinga bout straight up nitromethane.

I be one to tell you, dont expirament with this, just think dynamite!

Someone is going to pull a 1000CI, twin 106MM turbo's or bigger and push out 4000rwhp out of traditional race gas alone.

Someone is going to top this and do the same setup, with a shot of nitrous injection on it to go even higher

And someone else is going to say what the hell. Nitromethane with twin large pumpkins and more MPH than top fuel dragster.

What would a top fuel dragster do if top ended on benneville saltflats. IE: change the gearing, and tires, and redline that puppy.

If a car that can do 190MPH top end can trap like 125MPH in the quarter what is a car that can trap 315MPH going to do for topend? 500MPH?

I've spoken to a guy here locally who campaigns a T/AD rail (basically T/F minus the blower), about nitro for the street, and he is of the impression that it is possible, as long as it is used like nitrous is now, I.E. only under wot full load conditions.

He went on to explain that nitro will only produce a complete burn when the vehicle is under load, and the more load the better. He had actually set a record pass at the Medicine Hat, Canada, track by adding a ton more rear wing to the car, after some poor quailifing runs.

Reference Kevin Brown, Clearfield, UT., Div. 7 Federal Mogul T/AD rail.

Yes, that's the way I was thinking of running it, at WOT only. Just like nitrous. I've known of racers "spiking" their fuel with small amounts of nitro (1-3%), and all that is required is fattening of the fuel due to the oxygen in nitro. As long as you start conservative and keep it that way, I don't see any real issues using it.

Big DEN, I don't think he was discussing using it as a main fuel source so as long as the vehicle/combo in question is properly setup for the ultimate power/ET goal of the owner those things you mentioned won't be a hindering factor. Also Top Fuel cars do redline in the quarter, and they're actually rev limited at an attempt to reduce top end speed along with reduced mixtures. Nitro actually is much harder to ignite than conventional gasoline.

I be one to tell you, dont expirament with this, just think dynamite!


Nitro is much less volatile than gasoline. A nitro spill at the track for instance is of much less concern than gas. I think this could work if done conservatively as mentioned. You must add ALOT of fuel. Not to mention the stuff isn't cheap. ;)

I would think it would HAVE to be done via some type of directport setup as well....

When I was 12 I tried this experiment with my dads new riding mower by adding a liberal squirt of cox model airplane fuel which is around 25% nitro to my dads new riding mower. The muffler almost melted off from the heat and it also melted the rings into the piston after a few minutes. ;) "Son! Did you run the mower with oil?"......"Yeah Dad thats it!" ;)

Wasn't talking about nitro being easier or harder to ignite. Isn't the combustion of nitro much more powerful than gas? The number Im remember is something greater than 2x but less than 3x.

On the top fuel cars. We know a car that might make down the quarter in 130MPH isn't at its top speed.

One that can get down there at 150MPH isnt at its top speed

And one that can get down there in 200MPH isnt at its top speed.

In a vette you can do 200MPH with around 550HP for top end speed. Wtih 2000HP on tap, if you had a strip long enough I have no doubt this thing would break 350MPH if it could stay on the ground.

Top fuelers, what 6000 or 7000HP. No doubt if they could stay on the ground, change the gearing to be more for top end speed, and 5 miles to attain it along with 5 miles to slow down, I have no doubt with the right body ( I guess it'd be shaped like a airplane fueselage ) they would get over 400MPH. Probably close to 500MPH for top speed.

Top fuelers, what 6000 or 7000HP. No doubt if they could stay on the ground, change the gearing to be more for top end speed, and 5 miles to attain it along with 5 miles to slow down, I have no doubt with the right body ( I guess it'd be shaped like a airplane fueselage ) they would get over 400MPH. Probably close to 500MPH for top speed.

To bad most of them don't make it down the 1/4 with out some kind of problem much less 5 miles.

Okay Big DEN, if you say so. I don't own a top fuel dragster so I guess I can't argue. Gearing is already high (numerically lower) and limited to keep speeds down, along with the rev limiter and 80% mix. As soon as the engine is on the limiter it begins to eat itself up, same as when a hole goes out. There isn't any way a Top Fuel dragster would be able to make a 5 mile pass. That mph that shows up on the scoreboard is at or near its TOP speed, period. We're not talking EPA, govt regulated street cars that sometimes venture to the track. Top Fuel cars, along with every other properly purpose built drag car finishes the quarter at or near it's top speed based on gearing and RPM range. Not to mention the fuel consumption of a Top Fuel cars is north of 10 gallons for a single pass, burnout and idling. Gear reduction isn't even possible with a Top Fuel dragster because of the torque curve, or part throttle driving. So how exactly would a team/owner go about gearing for a salt flat run? Can't use a trans, can't ease into the throttle because of the nature of the fuel burn, they could design a rear end that accepts a pinion 2-3 times a many teeth as the ring, with a 600 inch wheelbase car. :jest: I don't see that happening.

Here check these links out.
SpeedTalk Forums (http://www.speedtalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=350&highlight=nitromethane)

Price Chemical (http://www.pricechemical.com/)

Price has nitro for sale, straight and mixable. At speedtalk, if you do a search for "nitromethane" you'll get a few topics. I was trying to find that UK or AU site (I can't remember which) where the guy was running a mix in his fuel and had dyno results. I'll keep looking.

Darrick.

Its an interesting one to say the least.

We know that in some of the current sporty cars:

Lambo/Ferrari/Vette/Viper/Supra/etc.

You can pass 200MPH if you have long enough stretch in many of these with under 600HP.

Now if you have 1000HP in one of these chassis your taking 250MPH for top speed.

My argument ( and not trying to pile drive it ), is that with 6000 or 7000HP, do you think that a car with better aerodynamic than most high end exotics isn't going to be able to top speed at 500MPH?

No one would do it, but perhaps for bragging rights. But were talking 7,000HP, that is a lot.


Where not talking top mph at the end of one quarter of a mile, but top speed based on aerodynamics, hp and weight!

injection before the tb is out of the question with this stuff form what im reading. itll eat the plastic intake. it might be fine if it can be injected in a fine mist at 100%

Actually one of the rocket shaped cars that ran a record salt flat speed already used a nitromethane fueled engine. It was a two cylinder version of a chevy V8..(lopped off bank of cylinders) which made in excess of 1800hp!!!! I remember reading about this years ago(around 400 mph).... In fact I bet most of the really fast piston combustion engines are running nitro....

You have to remember that the forces that oppose you when increasing speed also increase exponentially.....

I was actually pretty off in my earlier statements, in my mind I was comparing nitro to diesel or kerosene. Actually nitro has ALOT less energy than even E85, but in the question posed above you wouldnt be trying to get to stoch just using it to add oxygen to the combustion process than adding more gasoline to fatten the mixture. Keep us updated if anyone tries this, it would certainly be interesting!

i doubt a dragster can go much past its 1/4 mile speed, sure it should theoretically if you consider just power, but the entire engine and every other component of the car is to burn as much gas as possible at full load in just a 1/4 mile, i doubt the car would make it running a 1/2 mile even if you gave it enough fuel, considering the valve springs even on Pro Stock cars can barely last 1 pass as it is....

Big DEN, yes in theory a properly designed vehicle with a 5000+hp piston powerplant would attain the 500mph mark. But in reality, it's unrealistic. The combustion pressures, fuel consumption and throttle charateristics in a 6000+hp 500ci OHV engine aren't ideal for long distance top speed blasts. Your exotic car powerplants are way different than a Top Fuel engine. You can't compare nitro to anything on the street and what shows up at the racetrack. It's a completely different animal to say the least.

you would also have to run much higher compression, spark, and cylinder pressures to ignite the stuff

you can throw a lit match in a puddle of nitro and it won't ignite, needs compression. You can however, hit a puddle of it very hard with a hammer and make a nice bang

dont mean running just nitro or nitro mix, i mean spray it. also, you would think a small explosion from the gasoline would effectively light off the nitro creating extra umph in the combustion.

So anyone. Standing one mile vs 1/4 mile? Would top fuel dragster engine stay together that long? If so what would top end speed be?

Is car going to try to lift off ground or get light at a certain point?

I've seen people use Nitro to richen their mixtures is high horse forced induction cars. An example... I was at a hobby shop... :jest: and this guy walks in wanting to buy like 10 gallons of nitro mix from the owner. I overheard their conversation and it went like this, "I dropped 6 tenths off my time at Orlando Speed World when I mixed a gallon of this nitro with my regular". Now I can only assume he was running lean beforehand and this just gave him the rich bump. It was a blow-through carb 80's corolla running low 9's in the 1/4. Mixing the nitro supposedly put him in the mid 8's. This is my only experience with it and it's mearly hearsay.

Here's a little interesting stuff about Nitro:

* One Top Fuel dragster 500 cubic inch (that's 8.2 litres in new money) Hemi
engine makes more horsepower than the first 4 rows at the Daytona 500.

* Under full throttle, a dragster engine consumes 11/2 gallons of
nitromethane per second; a fully loaded 747 consumes jet fuel at the
same rate with 25% less energy being produced.

* A stock Dodge Hemi V8 engine cannot produce enough power to drive
the dragster supercharger.

* With 3000 CFM of air being rammed in by the supercharger on
overdrive, the fuel mixture is compressed into a near-solid form
before ignition. Cylinders run on the verge of hydraulic lock at full
throttle.

* At the stoichiometric 1.7:1 air/fuel mixture for nitromethane the
flame front temperature measures 7050 degrees F.

* Nitromethane burns yellow. The spectacular white flame seen above
the stacks at night is raw burning hydrogen, dissociated from
atmospheric water vapor by the searing exhaust gases.

* Dual magnetos supply 44 amps to each spark plug. This is the output
of an arc welder in each cylinder.

* Spark plug electrodes are totally consumed during a pass. After 1/2
way, the engine is dieseling from compression plus the glow of
exhaust valves at 1400 degrees F. The engine can only be shut down by
cutting the fuel flow.

* If spark momentarily fails early in the run, unburned nitro builds
up in the affected cylinders and then explodes with sufficient force
to blow cylinder heads off the block in pieces or split the block in
half.

* In order to exceed 300 mph in 4.5 seconds dragsters must accelerate
at an average of over 4G's. In order to reach 200 mph well before
half-track, the launch acceleration approaches 8G's.

* Dragsters reach over 300 miles per hour before you have completed
reading this sentence.

* Top Fuel Engines turn approximately 540 revolutions from light to
light!

* Including the burnout the engine must only survive 900 revolutions
under load.

* The redline is actually quite high at 9500rpm.

* The Bottom Line; Assuming all the equipment is paid off, the crew
worked for free, and for once NOTHING BLOWS UP, each run costs an
estimated US $1,000.00 per second. The current Top Fuel dragster
elapsed time record is 4.441 seconds for the quarter mile (10/05/03,
Tony Schumacher). The top speed record is 333.00 mph (533 km/h) as
measured over the last 66' of the run (09/28/03 Doug Kalitta).

Putting all of this into perspective:

You are driving the average $140,000 Lingenfelter "twin-turbo"
powered Corvette Z06. Over a mile up the road, a Top Fuel dragster is
staged and ready to launch down a quarter mile strip as you pass. You
have the advantage of a flying start. You run the 'Vette hard up
through the gears and blast across the starting line and past the
dragster at an honest 200 mph. The 'tree' goes green for both of you
at that moment. The dragster launches and starts after you. You keep
your foot down hard, but you hear an incredibly brutal whine that
sears your eardrums and within 3 seconds the dragster catches and
passes you. He beats you to the finish line, a quarter mile away from
where you just passed him. Think about it, from a standing start, the
dragster had spotted you 200 mph and not only caught, but nearly
blasted you off the road when he passed you within a mere 1320 foot
long race course.

That, folks, is acceleration.

Frightening, isn't it!

Rob.

So anyone. Standing one mile vs 1/4 mile? Would top fuel dragster engine stay together that long? If so what would top end speed be?

Is car going to try to lift off ground or get light at a certain point?
:offtopic: :hijack:
That isn't the topic of this thread!
PLUS I've already answered this question, the answer is NO! Obviously you haven't been to a Fuel race, and haven't seen the extensive maintenance that goes along with a Top Fuel or Nitro Funny Car.

I've seen people use Nitro to richen their mixtures is high horse forced induction cars. An example... I was at a hobby shop... :jest: and this guy walks in wanting to buy like 10 gallons of nitro mix from the owner. I overheard their conversation and it went like this, "I dropped 6 tenths off my time at Orlando Speed World when I mixed a gallon of this nitro with my regular". Now I can only assume he was running lean beforehand and this just gave him the rich bump. It was a blow-through carb 80's corolla running low 9's in the 1/4. Mixing the nitro supposedly put him in the mid 8's. This is my only experience with it and it's mearly hearsay.
Adding nitro only would lean out the mixture. So I think it would be the other way around. No doubt there are gains to be had when mixing it with the fuel which is why it's outlawed in class racing.

So anyone. Standing one mile vs 1/4 mile? Would top fuel dragster engine stay together that long? If so what would top end speed be?

Is car going to try to lift off ground or get light at a certain point?


would it stay together? not likely.

what would the top end speed be? it can be calculated roughly if you know the engine revs/rolling diameter of the tire/gearing in the rear. but you'd also need to take into account the slippage of the clutchpack. most are geared their lowest to hit their max speed within the confines of the 1/4 mile and apply maximum power to the tires.

will it lift? too many variables to answer. depends on car setup/track surface/environmental conditions. it's very possible at 300+ miles per hour though.

:hijack:
im not asking anything about tf cars. this has to do with the possibility as nitromethane as a sprayed poweradder.

that being said, what fittings, nozzles, etc would be able to hold up to the corrosive properties of it?

Nitro doesn;t produce say a larger cobustion event in terms of raw pressure but expands much much more then gasoline therby building TQ when the cranksahft is actually more optimally timmed to produce TQ.

Wasn't talking about nitro being easier or harder to ignite. Isn't the combustion of nitro much more powerful than gas? The number Im remember is something greater than 2x but less than 3x.

On the top fuel cars. We know a car that might make down the quarter in 130MPH isn't at its top speed.

One that can get down there at 150MPH isnt at its top speed

And one that can get down there in 200MPH isnt at its top speed.

In a vette you can do 200MPH with around 550HP for top end speed. Wtih 2000HP on tap, if you had a strip long enough I have no doubt this thing would break 350MPH if it could stay on the ground.

Top fuelers, what 6000 or 7000HP. No doubt if they could stay on the ground, change the gearing to be more for top end speed, and 5 miles to attain it along with 5 miles to slow down, I have no doubt with the right body ( I guess it'd be shaped like a airplane fueselage ) they would get over 400MPH. Probably close to 500MPH for top speed.

http://www.pricechemical.com/nitromethane.htm

http://www.pro-blend.com/circle3.htm

been out for years. I have used the pro-blend. its an eye burner :cry:

spiking a meth sprayer with nitro should work too
shit is mega corrosive tho.....

:hijack:
im not asking anything about tf cars. this has to do with the possibility as nitromethane as a sprayed poweradder.

that being said, what fittings, nozzles, etc would be able to hold up to the corrosive properties of it?
I would think brass fittings would get the job done. Nylon hose, or steel braided line I guess would be better to use. I think that whatever you would use, you'd have to flush the lines after you're done beating on it. How much are you thinking about spraying? In lesser quantities the better off you'd be.

Adding nitro only would lean out the mixture. So I think it would be the other way around. No doubt there are gains to be had when mixing it with the fuel which is why it's outlawed in class racing.

Ah, That makes sense. Who knows what this guy was doing. I just know he needed his "fix".

I would think brass fittings would get the job done. Nylon hose, or steel braided line I guess would be better to use. I think that whatever you would use, you'd have to flush the lines after you're done beating on it. How much are you thinking about spraying? In lesser quantities the better off you'd be.
i would probably start with a dry nitrous nozzle so i could use predetermined sized jets. most likely as small as possible to start with and use a good wideband setup to see what it does. amount for now is unknown but not enough to need more than a 1-2 gallon cell. hmmm :secret2:

How about better yet. Since the thread is attempt to being kept on the original track?

Has this been done before?

How has it been done?

What were results?

So my question is this. You buy that gallon of rc car nitro methane which containes ~30% nitro and the rest methanol and you mix approximately a quart of it with a tank of gas, would you benefit at all?

Would it add any power, would it run super lean? Would the combustion process be enough to ignite the nitro?

And could we pour it into a stock fuel system?


(Probably not but I had to ask:))

SpeedTalk Forums (http://www.speedtalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=350&highlight=nitromethane)


This link I posted earlier has some info on running nitro. If you do a search on Speedtalk you'll get a couple of topics also.

So my question is this. You buy that gallon of rc car nitro methane which containes ~30% nitro and the rest methanol and you mix approximately a quart of it with a tank of gas, would you benefit at all?

Would it add any power, would it run super lean? Would the combustion process be enough to ignite the nitro?
Yes you could, but you'd have to adjust your a/f ratio accordingly for the amount you're adding.

And could we pour it into a stock fuel system?


(Probably not but I had to ask:))
You COULD, but remember nitro and methanol are both very corrosive. The stock rubber lines would definitely deteriorate if the mixture was left in the system. The lesser the mix ratio the less damage. That is why it would be better to build/design an auxillary delivery system. That way the nitro mix would only be used at WOT (or close to it). That would keep costs down and preserve your existing fuel system.

i would probably start with a dry nitrous nozzle so i could use predetermined sized jets. most likely as small as possible to start with and use a good wideband setup to see what it does. amount for now is unknown but not enough to need more than a 1-2 gallon cell. hmmm :secret2:
That's a good idea. How do you plan to add the extra fuel while it's spraying? Or would you mix it with the nitro? I hadn't thought about that. You could start at a 50/50 mix of nitro/methanol with something like a .012 jet and see what happens. Work up your jet size from there based on your data collected.

Be safe to say if you going to run nitro you run an auxilary system. Include seperate tank, lines, pump and injection.

It is being said here, that top fuel running nitro only for WOT, and that is the assumption here.

The thoughts must be that we dont want to have arc welders for ignition coils and don't want our plugs to melt and the ignition process to rely on a "glow plug" like affect at any point.

So nitro that can be run on a high performance or track only vehicle, with some level of practicality to it.

If one needs to change to a much higher heat resistant plug that would be interesting. But if piston and ring design change much this would need to come into this discussion.

For people talking in terms of cars trapping high 1/4 mph's being able to reach super high speeds, drag due to air increases exponentially as the mph increases. Anyways, I doubt top fuel dragsters are designed to go much faster than their trap speed before they generate lift.

Using it will definitely warrant the "traditional changes" when using a power adder. Like changing plug heat ranges, adjusting timing, air/fuel settings will still apply obviously. The mystery lies in how much of a change is needed for a given amount of nitromethane. So far I haven't found any basic rules of thumb when running it. I would assume that on a properly tuned engine, amounts that provide a 50-100hp increase wouldn't require much change to the setup. Only small fine tuning would be required. Either way, you'd have to know what you're doing when it comes to tuning. No tuning experience+Nitromethane=BOOM! Same as nitrous!

That's a good idea. How do you plan to add the extra fuel while it's spraying? Or would you mix it with the nitro? I hadn't thought about that. You could start at a 50/50 mix of nitro/methanol with something like a .012 jet and see what happens. Work up your jet size from there based on your data collected.
hmm, mixing gas into the nitro to play with its % is something i hadnt thought of. it would have the advantage of an infinite amount of mixture/shot sizes. i suppose i would set it up just like a nitrous setup: wot switch, pressure switch, window switch..etc.. before you brought it up i was thinking of useing it just like a dry n2o system.

alchemist- i wouldnt put rc fuel into my tank because of the oil thats in it. especially on efi cars with O2's.

big-den- it would be a self contained system like a nitrous system.


now in terms of tuning, i would think itd be on the simple side given the right math. ie: how much the oxygen would lean the mixture (about another 20% from wha tive read), how hot it would get which would determine timing retard, and a/f based of gas/nitro mix given i go that route. someone here DID do a spreadsheet on how nitro effects a/f but its buried under all these posts. i suppose i could use one of hp tuners tables as a "boost retard" table that would retard timing based on the map readings. tuning it will deffinately require a very detailed hand. i would suspect that you could gain almost 30% more power for the same size shot.

HotRod did an article about using nitro. The results are here:
http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/engine/113_0304_359ci_small_block_chevy_nitromethane/index.html

alchemist- i wouldnt put rc fuel into my tank because of the oil thats in it. especially on efi cars with O2's.



The amount of oil would be perfectly okay. When you use a fuel as "dry" as that, you would want some type of lubrication mixed with it anyway. Lots of people mix 2 cycle oil in their gas when running very high octane race fuel to keep it from eating all the seals and o-rings in the fuel system. It wont hurt it and is actually a good idea, imo.

HotRod did an article about using nitro. The results are here:
http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/engine/113_0304_359ci_small_block_chevy_nitromethane/index.html
close, but not exactly what im thinking. im not thinking of using it as the main fuel. athough, 15% and about 50hp... god knows what 100% through the right jet would do.

From someone who has been heavily involved in Fuel racing, and have tried half these ideas, just do yourselves a favor and leave it alone.

Nitro is a diffent animal than you have ever seen. Less than 30% just smells good and hurts parts, no power... Have you ever seen nitro coupes? 30% and cant keep up with 5 y/o Promods.

Nitro+Suspension= Bad Idea

If you use enough nitro to extract any performance potential your motor/health will pay dearly.

There's a reason stuff like this has been tried and given up on-it wont work or is not a very economical approach.

I could not fully explain on an internet forum the intricacies of CH3NO2.
But once you understand it (sorta) you see why it is used as sparingly as it is.

And by the way-never put oil of any type in the fuel-it has an octane rating of 0. detonation city. Seals and o-rings are cheaper than pistons.

see my thing with that is, nitrous used to be thought of taboo in that same way. also i wouldnt use it in the actual fuel tank like everyone is thinking. it would be injected the same way as nitrous at WOT. i have never seen anyone do it in that way. wouldnt you think a motor that used a nitro fuel to run would have more issues than one that had it sprayed in, in a sort duration?

And by the way-never put oil of any type in the fuel-it has an octane rating of 0. detonation city. Seals and o-rings are cheaper than pistons.


RX7 guys have have been deleting their factory OMP (oil metering pump) and mixing 2stroke in with their gas for years without issues. I've done it myself as well, and when I run pure C-16 I always run a little bit of 2 stroke to help keep things lubricated. Typically I'll use 1 ounce per gallon of C16 and have had no problems with detonation. I've done quite a bit of dyno testing with that mixture in the tank and not seen a problem.

Charles

Nitrous is differnt from nitro. Nitro will not do what your hoping.

Gas burns a whole lot faster than nitro, youll either encounter extreme cyl prssures or melting exhaust valves.

As far as the fuel delivery, you dont want nitro to be atomized.

As far as the oil not causing detonation, I should have specified that motors on the ragged edge hate it more.

Nitrous is just an oxidizer that has predictable results when mixed with fuel. The problem with nitro is that is not well-understood when used as a fuel.

Nitrous is just an oxidizer that has predictable results when mixed with fuel. The problem with nitro is that is not well-understood when used as a fuel.
and will never be if people dont try new things to figure out its little secrets. not so much me but in general. reason being, we all know teams that use it regularly will never say what they really know.
if you were to use it as what im describing, how would you go about it? somehow introduce it into the fuel system when activated, spray it, seperate injectors?

In a street vehicle it is impossible to control the volume req'd at certain load because the load is too variable. Plus the cyl pressure produced during proper combustion of a certain % will be to high for a modern street-motor. If I could find a graph that showed cyl pressure rise in relation to piston movement vs gas/alky you would see what I mean. Any amount that would improve performance would destroy the motor.

In a street vehicle it is impossible to control the volume req'd at certain load because the load is too variable. Plus the cyl pressure produced during proper combustion of a certain % will be to high for a modern street-motor. If I could find a graph that showed cyl pressure rise in relation to piston movement vs gas/alky you would see what I mean. Any amount that would improve performance would destroy the motor.

Which is what this link posted earlier show's (I was looking all over for that. About 4 days worth and couldn't find that link. Thanks Keith)

http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/engine/113_0304_359ci_small_block_chevy_nitromethane/index.html

Basically, the more they detonated, the more power they made, but they were also hurting the motor at the same time. **EDIT** Not the same article I thought it was. There is another one on the web somewhere.

Why is it that most vids you see of crew cheif's in the pit's after a run, are almost always looking at the bearings? Because they take a shit load of abuse and tell what the engine is doing.

To bad most of them don't make it down the 1/4 with out some kind of problem much less 5 miles.

I agreee im pretty sure they dont have a WOT life over like 1 min lol

they have a wot life of maybe 5 secs, 6 at wot theyd be out of fuel.

Most of the time thats true, Ive seen them go 10 secs WOT... :jest: two passes with no problems.

Hell, our first year in IHRA Top Fuel we only hurt one motor in 12 races and won 2.
Thats probably God on our side though.

Hell, our first year in IHRA Top Fuel we only hurt one motor in 12 races and won 2.
Thats probably God on our side though.
what team are you with?

they have a wot life of maybe 5 secs, 6 at wot theyd be out of fuel.

Yeah i think they use a gallon and a half a sec at WOT

Foley/Lewis

you would also have to run much higher compression, spark, and cylinder pressures to ignite the stuff

you can throw a lit match in a puddle of nitro and it won't ignite, needs compression. You can however, hit a puddle of it very hard with a hammer and make a nice bang

The S.C.R of top fuel engines is ~7.0:1. Stochiometric for nitro is 1.7:1.

The S.C.R of top fuel engines is ~7.0:1

But...they also push about 60 PSI of boost which is an incredible amount
of pre-spark cylinder pressure.

We know alot of thee motors will how 180-210PSI on the compression teter when turning the motor via the starter motor? What that 200RPM MAYBE?

How many PSI in a running cyllinder at 7000RPM?

What about what is greatest PSI on combustion?

We know alot of thee motors will how 180-210PSI on the compression teter when turning the motor via the starter motor? What that 200RPM MAYBE?

Depending on the valve timing and SCR, that's about common for the average
street motor. That really doesn't tell us much other than the uniformity across
all cylinders. Compression tests do not indicate the cylinder pressures once
fuel, heat and RPM come into the equation.

How many PSI in a running cyllinder at 7000RPM?

Pre spark? No idea, but you would surely have to know the VE numbers to get
a clue. Even use a dyno graph and work from the values to calculate the unknown.
That would not be an option for a top fuel motor however. As far as I'm aware,
there isn't a dyno on earth that can handle that sort of power.

What about what is greatest PSI on combustion?

The average street motor on pump gasoline N/A is approximately 1100 PSI
upon combustion near TDC. This will fluctuate as VE changes.

I know a guy that runs it with his gas in his chevelle. He said he had to do some tuning with it.

On the bottle of the stuff it says "Colder Plug is recommended" "Will resist pre-detonation". Two things that kind of contridict each other.

But as far as carrying its own oxygen that kind of intrests me. I'm not sure if it was NitroPropane or NitroMethane.




Nitromethane is what I think is run in R/C cars, that shit's about like desiel fuel how it will burn, atleast from my expereince. It literally burns cold. :jest:

Wait, Im laughing hard...

You said, that guy is running nitromethane in his car with race gas AND NITROUS?

ANd all it says on the bottle is "Colder Plug is recommended" "Will resist pre-detonation". ?

That would not be an option for a top fuel motor however. As far as I'm aware,
there isn't a dyno on earth that can handle that sort of power.


I'm sure there is something that could be rigged. Think about a large power plant -->Huge shaft driven generators

http://www.solar.coppe.ufrj.br/itaipu.html

Conversion reference.
715 megawatt = 958,830.796 horsepower [international] :eek2:

Now it wouldn't make any sense for someone to build a chasis roller dyno for this application if that's what you were getting at :)

I'm sure there is something that could be rigged. Think about a large power plant -->Huge shaft driven generators

http://www.solar.coppe.ufrj.br/itaipu.html

Conversion reference.
715 megawatt = 958,830.796 horsepower [international] :eek2:

Now it wouldn't make any sense for someone to build a chasis roller dyno for this application if that's what you were getting at :)
so, you would just use a generator setup and measure the amount of power yu generate and use the formula to translate into hp. interesting...go build one:)

I know a guy that runs this in his gas. Not sure what mix, he buys it at a motorcycle shop. He has a 66 Chevelle.