Nitromethane as a power adder?
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From: Rockville, MD
Nitromethane as a power adder? anybody ever experiment with just spraying nitro? i figure since it A) carries its own oxygen and B) being combustable, it would be a worthwhile power adder in itself. ive been pondering its usefulness as a substitute fo n2o.
the things that are taken into account are its volatility, low a/f, its uniqueness as a fuel, and a couple other things. any thoughts?
the things that are taken into account are its volatility, low a/f, its uniqueness as a fuel, and a couple other things. any thoughts?
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From: Central FL/ East AL
I had thought about it too. Being that 100% nitromethane is close to 50% oxygen by weight. Price Chemical makes several blends that are compatible with gasoline as well as 100% nitro. But it's to be mixed with the fuel. What I was thinking of was using a separate fuel cell containing the nitro mix with a fuel pump and an extra injector to spray the nitro mix. The trick comes in a/f ratio, as I have no idea how nitro blended fuel burns, and I don't know anyone that does have nitro experience. I know it requires 1.2:1 mix for stoich. I had calculated that, in theory 1lb/min of nitro would yield 56.75hp comparing nitrous oxide's oxygen content by weight and flow in reference to horsepower. I have not proven that nor tested it, but I would like to. I don't know the burn rate of nitro compared to gasoline with nitrous either. I just never got around to it, mainly because Price Chemical requires a minimum order of 4 gallons I think, and based on my calculations I would only be using ounces at a time.
I've read on some UK forums where a guy was getting huge gains with nitro, so it's definitely doable in my opinion. It would be an interesting project to me anyway, and I still will play with it once my other things are finished!
I've read on some UK forums where a guy was getting huge gains with nitro, so it's definitely doable in my opinion. It would be an interesting project to me anyway, and I still will play with it once my other things are finished!
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Supposedly nitro is over 2x more powerful per volume as race gas. Someone will chime in and break it down to 1/1000ths and give the specific figure, but its greater than 2x.
I figure if someone took one of those 2500rwhp rigs and converted them to nitro, your right at 6000rwhp right there.
My thing is what many of us aren't thinking about or at least i havent' seen a significance placed on it, is what the driveshafts, and axles must look like to pull this off. Cause the tq figures are up there.
Were talking about smaller motors that need nitrous injection to spin the turbo's up, now were talkinga bout straight up nitromethane.
I be one to tell you, dont expirament with this, just think dynamite!
Someone is going to pull a 1000CI, twin 106MM turbo's or bigger and push out 4000rwhp out of traditional race gas alone.
Someone is going to top this and do the same setup, with a shot of nitrous injection on it to go even higher
And someone else is going to say what the hell. Nitromethane with twin large pumpkins and more MPH than top fuel dragster.
What would a top fuel dragster do if top ended on benneville saltflats. IE: change the gearing, and tires, and redline that puppy.
If a car that can do 190MPH top end can trap like 125MPH in the quarter what is a car that can trap 315MPH going to do for topend? 500MPH?
I figure if someone took one of those 2500rwhp rigs and converted them to nitro, your right at 6000rwhp right there.
My thing is what many of us aren't thinking about or at least i havent' seen a significance placed on it, is what the driveshafts, and axles must look like to pull this off. Cause the tq figures are up there.
Were talking about smaller motors that need nitrous injection to spin the turbo's up, now were talkinga bout straight up nitromethane.
I be one to tell you, dont expirament with this, just think dynamite!
Someone is going to pull a 1000CI, twin 106MM turbo's or bigger and push out 4000rwhp out of traditional race gas alone.
Someone is going to top this and do the same setup, with a shot of nitrous injection on it to go even higher
And someone else is going to say what the hell. Nitromethane with twin large pumpkins and more MPH than top fuel dragster.
What would a top fuel dragster do if top ended on benneville saltflats. IE: change the gearing, and tires, and redline that puppy.
If a car that can do 190MPH top end can trap like 125MPH in the quarter what is a car that can trap 315MPH going to do for topend? 500MPH?
I've spoken to a guy here locally who campaigns a T/AD rail (basically T/F minus the blower), about nitro for the street, and he is of the impression that it is possible, as long as it is used like nitrous is now, I.E. only under wot full load conditions.
He went on to explain that nitro will only produce a complete burn when the vehicle is under load, and the more load the better. He had actually set a record pass at the Medicine Hat, Canada, track by adding a ton more rear wing to the car, after some poor quailifing runs.
Reference Kevin Brown, Clearfield, UT., Div. 7 Federal Mogul T/AD rail.
He went on to explain that nitro will only produce a complete burn when the vehicle is under load, and the more load the better. He had actually set a record pass at the Medicine Hat, Canada, track by adding a ton more rear wing to the car, after some poor quailifing runs.
Reference Kevin Brown, Clearfield, UT., Div. 7 Federal Mogul T/AD rail.
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Yes, that's the way I was thinking of running it, at WOT only. Just like nitrous. I've known of racers "spiking" their fuel with small amounts of nitro (1-3%), and all that is required is fattening of the fuel due to the oxygen in nitro. As long as you start conservative and keep it that way, I don't see any real issues using it.
Big DEN, I don't think he was discussing using it as a main fuel source so as long as the vehicle/combo in question is properly setup for the ultimate power/ET goal of the owner those things you mentioned won't be a hindering factor. Also Top Fuel cars do redline in the quarter, and they're actually rev limited at an attempt to reduce top end speed along with reduced mixtures. Nitro actually is much harder to ignite than conventional gasoline.
Big DEN, I don't think he was discussing using it as a main fuel source so as long as the vehicle/combo in question is properly setup for the ultimate power/ET goal of the owner those things you mentioned won't be a hindering factor. Also Top Fuel cars do redline in the quarter, and they're actually rev limited at an attempt to reduce top end speed along with reduced mixtures. Nitro actually is much harder to ignite than conventional gasoline.
Originally Posted by Big-DEN
I be one to tell you, dont expirament with this, just think dynamite!
I would think it would HAVE to be done via some type of directport setup as well....
When I was 12 I tried this experiment with my dads new riding mower by adding a liberal squirt of *** model airplane fuel which is around 25% nitro to my dads new riding mower. The muffler almost melted off from the heat and it also melted the rings into the piston after a few minutes.
"Son! Did you run the mower with oil?"......"Yeah Dad thats it!" Last edited by cantdrv65; Dec 5, 2006 at 04:12 AM.
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Wasn't talking about nitro being easier or harder to ignite. Isn't the combustion of nitro much more powerful than gas? The number Im remember is something greater than 2x but less than 3x.
On the top fuel cars. We know a car that might make down the quarter in 130MPH isn't at its top speed.
One that can get down there at 150MPH isnt at its top speed
And one that can get down there in 200MPH isnt at its top speed.
In a vette you can do 200MPH with around 550HP for top end speed. Wtih 2000HP on tap, if you had a strip long enough I have no doubt this thing would break 350MPH if it could stay on the ground.
Top fuelers, what 6000 or 7000HP. No doubt if they could stay on the ground, change the gearing to be more for top end speed, and 5 miles to attain it along with 5 miles to slow down, I have no doubt with the right body ( I guess it'd be shaped like a airplane fueselage ) they would get over 400MPH. Probably close to 500MPH for top speed.
On the top fuel cars. We know a car that might make down the quarter in 130MPH isn't at its top speed.
One that can get down there at 150MPH isnt at its top speed
And one that can get down there in 200MPH isnt at its top speed.
In a vette you can do 200MPH with around 550HP for top end speed. Wtih 2000HP on tap, if you had a strip long enough I have no doubt this thing would break 350MPH if it could stay on the ground.
Top fuelers, what 6000 or 7000HP. No doubt if they could stay on the ground, change the gearing to be more for top end speed, and 5 miles to attain it along with 5 miles to slow down, I have no doubt with the right body ( I guess it'd be shaped like a airplane fueselage ) they would get over 400MPH. Probably close to 500MPH for top speed.
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Originally Posted by Big-DEN
Top fuelers, what 6000 or 7000HP. No doubt if they could stay on the ground, change the gearing to be more for top end speed, and 5 miles to attain it along with 5 miles to slow down, I have no doubt with the right body ( I guess it'd be shaped like a airplane fueselage ) they would get over 400MPH. Probably close to 500MPH for top speed.
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From: Central FL/ East AL
Okay Big DEN, if you say so. I don't own a top fuel dragster so I guess I can't argue. Gearing is already high (numerically lower) and limited to keep speeds down, along with the rev limiter and 80% mix. As soon as the engine is on the limiter it begins to eat itself up, same as when a hole goes out. There isn't any way a Top Fuel dragster would be able to make a 5 mile pass. That mph that shows up on the scoreboard is at or near its TOP speed, period. We're not talking EPA, govt regulated street cars that sometimes venture to the track. Top Fuel cars, along with every other properly purpose built drag car finishes the quarter at or near it's top speed based on gearing and RPM range. Not to mention the fuel consumption of a Top Fuel cars is north of 10 gallons for a single pass, burnout and idling. Gear reduction isn't even possible with a Top Fuel dragster because of the torque curve, or part throttle driving. So how exactly would a team/owner go about gearing for a salt flat run? Can't use a trans, can't ease into the throttle because of the nature of the fuel burn, they could design a rear end that accepts a pinion 2-3 times a many teeth as the ring, with a 600 inch wheelbase car. 
I don't see that happening.
I don't see that happening. 12 Second Club
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From: Central FL/ East AL
Here check these links out.
SpeedTalk Forums
Price Chemical
Price has nitro for sale, straight and mixable. At speedtalk, if you do a search for "nitromethane" you'll get a few topics. I was trying to find that UK or AU site (I can't remember which) where the guy was running a mix in his fuel and had dyno results. I'll keep looking.
SpeedTalk Forums
Price Chemical
Price has nitro for sale, straight and mixable. At speedtalk, if you do a search for "nitromethane" you'll get a few topics. I was trying to find that UK or AU site (I can't remember which) where the guy was running a mix in his fuel and had dyno results. I'll keep looking.
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Darrick.
Its an interesting one to say the least.
We know that in some of the current sporty cars:
Lambo/Ferrari/Vette/Viper/Supra/etc.
You can pass 200MPH if you have long enough stretch in many of these with under 600HP.
Now if you have 1000HP in one of these chassis your taking 250MPH for top speed.
My argument ( and not trying to pile drive it ), is that with 6000 or 7000HP, do you think that a car with better aerodynamic than most high end exotics isn't going to be able to top speed at 500MPH?
No one would do it, but perhaps for bragging rights. But were talking 7,000HP, that is a lot.
Where not talking top mph at the end of one quarter of a mile, but top speed based on aerodynamics, hp and weight!
Its an interesting one to say the least.
We know that in some of the current sporty cars:
Lambo/Ferrari/Vette/Viper/Supra/etc.
You can pass 200MPH if you have long enough stretch in many of these with under 600HP.
Now if you have 1000HP in one of these chassis your taking 250MPH for top speed.
My argument ( and not trying to pile drive it ), is that with 6000 or 7000HP, do you think that a car with better aerodynamic than most high end exotics isn't going to be able to top speed at 500MPH?
No one would do it, but perhaps for bragging rights. But were talking 7,000HP, that is a lot.
Where not talking top mph at the end of one quarter of a mile, but top speed based on aerodynamics, hp and weight!
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injection before the tb is out of the question with this stuff form what im reading. itll eat the plastic intake. it might be fine if it can be injected in a fine mist at 100%
Top Fuel Land Speed Record Actually one of the rocket shaped cars that ran a record salt flat speed already used a nitromethane fueled engine. It was a two cylinder version of a chevy V8..(lopped off bank of cylinders) which made in excess of 1800hp!!!! I remember reading about this years ago(around 400 mph).... In fact I bet most of the really fast piston combustion engines are running nitro....
You have to remember that the forces that oppose you when increasing speed also increase exponentially.....
You have to remember that the forces that oppose you when increasing speed also increase exponentially.....
Last edited by cantdrv65; Dec 5, 2006 at 04:01 AM.
I was actually pretty off in my earlier statements, in my mind I was comparing nitro to diesel or kerosene. Actually nitro has ALOT less energy than even E85, but in the question posed above you wouldnt be trying to get to stoch just using it to add oxygen to the combustion process than adding more gasoline to fatten the mixture. Keep us updated if anyone tries this, it would certainly be interesting!
Last edited by cantdrv65; Dec 5, 2006 at 05:01 AM.
i doubt a dragster can go much past its 1/4 mile speed, sure it should theoretically if you consider just power, but the entire engine and every other component of the car is to burn as much gas as possible at full load in just a 1/4 mile, i doubt the car would make it running a 1/2 mile even if you gave it enough fuel, considering the valve springs even on Pro Stock cars can barely last 1 pass as it is....
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Big DEN, yes in theory a properly designed vehicle with a 5000+hp piston powerplant would attain the 500mph mark. But in reality, it's unrealistic. The combustion pressures, fuel consumption and throttle charateristics in a 6000+hp 500ci OHV engine aren't ideal for long distance top speed blasts. Your exotic car powerplants are way different than a Top Fuel engine. You can't compare nitro to anything on the street and what shows up at the racetrack. It's a completely different animal to say the least.
you would also have to run much higher compression, spark, and cylinder pressures to ignite the stuff
you can throw a lit match in a puddle of nitro and it won't ignite, needs compression. You can however, hit a puddle of it very hard with a hammer and make a nice bang
you can throw a lit match in a puddle of nitro and it won't ignite, needs compression. You can however, hit a puddle of it very hard with a hammer and make a nice bang
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dont mean running just nitro or nitro mix, i mean spray it. also, you would think a small explosion from the gasoline would effectively light off the nitro creating extra umph in the combustion.
Last edited by Wnts2Go10O; Dec 6, 2006 at 12:00 AM.
I've seen people use Nitro to richen their mixtures is high horse forced induction cars. An example... I was at a hobby shop... and this guy walks in wanting to buy like 10 gallons of nitro mix from the owner. I overheard their conversation and it went like this, "I dropped 6 tenths off my time at Orlando Speed World when I mixed a gallon of this nitro with my regular". Now I can only assume he was running lean beforehand and this just gave him the rich bump. It was a blow-through carb 80's corolla running low 9's in the 1/4. Mixing the nitro supposedly put him in the mid 8's. This is my only experience with it and it's mearly hearsay.
and this guy walks in wanting to buy like 10 gallons of nitro mix from the owner. I overheard their conversation and it went like this, "I dropped 6 tenths off my time at Orlando Speed World when I mixed a gallon of this nitro with my regular". Now I can only assume he was running lean beforehand and this just gave him the rich bump. It was a blow-through carb 80's corolla running low 9's in the 1/4. Mixing the nitro supposedly put him in the mid 8's. This is my only experience with it and it's mearly hearsay.