dazman

i just got my heads in today from tsp. ls6 heads. the ports on the intake are rough as can be ( cnc did not touch them) on every port on one of the sides.like as if the cnc machine got one side but did not get on the other side. and several rough spots. should i get a dremel and smooth out these rough edges???

thanx


mike

Proud2bSS

iTrader: (2)

I would definitely get those heads checked. There have been instances in the last 2 weeks where rocker studs have broken off. Could this be a possible CNC issue?

https://ls1tech.com/forums/generation-iii-internal-engine/650783-tsp-ls6-cnc-heads-come-apart-rocker-mount-ripped-out-head.html

dazman

have any ideas where i can get the heads checked, i am about 1000 miles from texas speed. i swear...... this is pathetic. hope their return policy is good.

mike

staringback05

iTrader: (8)

get intouch with tony over there...they should take care of you

Proud2bSS

iTrader: (2)

For a few $'s you could probably find a machine shop that could caliper the thickness of the ports. Well worth the $ IMHO.

However, I would give TSP a call, maybe get some photos (if u can get a digital camera) and email them to them as well.

Trevor @ Texas Speed & Perf.

iTrader: (3)

There is absolutely nothing wrong with the port. It is normal for a small portion of the intake runner to be left as cast. There is nothing wrong with the digitizing, CNC machine, or any other portion of our cylinder head porting process. We use hundreds of thousands of dollars of equipment in our cylinder head process for this exact reason. The cylinder head is designed to flow, and it does exactly that. There is nothing wrong with this port. We used to have a larger 237cc intake runner, but we redesigned the port that is now a 230cc intake runner. We reduced the size of the port and did not give up any flow whatsoever. The previous larger runner ran the risk of failure in the rocker area, as I'm sure everyone is aware. This is why we went back to the drawing board with a smaller runner that can equal the flow of the larger. I don't see anything pathetic in providing customers with a reliable product that flows exactly what we advertise. If you doubt the cylinder heads, feel free to have them flowed. We have had numerous customers and shops flow our cylinder heads with dead-on results. The small area in the intake runner that is not ported is not killing your flow whatsoever. There's a big difference between the functionality of a cylinder head and aesthetically-pleasing runners. We have had a few customers try to do "additional work" to their cylinder heads only to hurt the performance of the heads. Should you decide to perform additional work on your heads, they are not returnable. We have already proven numerous times on the flow bench that hand-finishing does not add any real flow to the cylinder heads. That would actually negate the reason of us using a CNC 5-axis machine for porting and a CNC valve job machine. These machines ensure incredible accuracy and take out the human factor. Our machines don't have "off days". They work when we want them to, and they do their job with the same precision every time. We could design a show-quality port that looks great on your mantle, but you might not be happy with where it counts...installed on your engine.

Let me know if you have any other questions or concerns.

Trevor
Texas Speed & Performance

99blancoSS

iTrader: (115)

An un-educated customer can be a problem some times. You dont polish the intake ports. You dont want a glass like surface. Dont think that just because Marv had an issue that your heads are junk because you dont know what your looking at. I have never heard of anyone having the issue with their heads from TSP that Marv had. I ran their 5.3 stage 2.5's and had no issues and great power. My numbers matched an fm13 w/tea heads so they know what they are doing. Dont panic and start lashing out before you know what your talking about.

Xtnct00WS6

iTrader: (8)

Post some pics Dazman....we're all curious what it looks like.

The rough surface the intake ports have from the factory are perfectly fine. If the TSP CNC program doesn't need to cut part of the port, then I'm sure it's fine. You actually want a rough surface for fuel flow optimization. Do not smooth anything out in the intake port!! The combustion chamber and exhaust are a different story though...people have smoothed those out with good results.

marv

iTrader: (40)

I'll chime in here I suppose...

Dazman, I wouldn't get too worried just yet. #1 the ports in my heads weren't glass smooth either, and #2 if you DO have a problem, rest assured that TSP will take care of you. My problem thread is proof positive of that. They've help me in the past as well.

I'd recommend snapping a couple good quality pics and sending them to Trevor or Jason at TSP. I'm sure they'll work with you in whatever you need.

I'm fixing to call them myself!

Good luck!

OUTLAWZ RACING

iTrader: (9)

I have read about mirro finishing chambers. Somthing about not letting the fuel mix with the air( Atomaztion) I cant spell) But to that effect the air and fule need ruff spots to make the fuel tumble off the chambers to help with the burn. Help me if im wrong.

99blancoSS

iTrader: (115)

correct atomization is the name of the game in the intake. The air and fuel need to mix/become one.

OUTLAWZ RACING

iTrader: (9)

OK cool now if I can lern ha to spell

99blancoSS

iTrader: (115)

I dont know if I spelled it correctly or not but your right about the theory of it.

Black_98Z

iTrader: (13)

yea, pics would be nice, but sounds like this is normal

dazman

pretend that you just sunk 6000$ at texas speed, and somthing comes back that doesnt look right. then you see post on the board about the damn rocker tearing out of the head.... THAT is education that i dont want to learn. if the head doesnt have to be cnc'd on both sides of the intake runners then why cnc them at all? if the rough surface is top notch then why not leave it this way?? this is the stuff thats running through my head..(both heads) ..... i could actually care less about the 1300$ head job that i just got except for the fact that the rocker is going to blow out of the head, that is the only thing that is REALLY REALLY worrying me. but from the above post it sounds like they have fixed it with the new runners.

pics are coming tommarow evening GUARANTEED. i want everyone to see what im talking about and comment... i hope im wrong.

thanx

mike

dazman

and i dont want to give a wrong impression of texas speed. there is a reason that i chose them over any other shop and it was their customer service with bang for the buck performance. i probably should have called them first instead of ranting on the board, but i am in debt and worried.... lol.....

mike

Xtnct00WS6

iTrader: (8)

They're reshaping the port. If a particular section doesn't need reshaping, then they won't. One section that obviously does need reshaping is the bump that covers the rocker bolt. They want to keep the port as small as possible since they're already removing material and potentially decreasing port velocity. The more material they remove, the thinner the walls get and can cause bad damage as you saw in that other thread.

dazman

this bump that you are talking about is not there, because it has been completely ported out. the part that is not touched is on the side of the intake runner... i can see that maybe it would not hurt results by haveing a smaller runner, but it just looks really odd.



mike

LS1Formulation

iTrader: (13)

Anyone can go in and hog a port out, touch every single surface with a die grinder and cartridge rolls, make it look like art and it still might not flow worth a damn. It might have horrible port velocity, no swirl to speak of, but a customer used to seeing perfectly machined CNC ports will think it's the cats *** and pay big bucks for it. Then they wonder why their engine is a pig. I have been porting heads for years, strictly LT1 and vortec castings because I know what works on those, and I have seen this happen firsthand. I have had customers complain because I didn't finish the whole port. They don't get the concept of only removing material where it's needed. So now, I simply take a rough grit cartridge roll and hit the entire port with it, removing the casting marks and providing a nice uniform finish. It looks good, doesn't remove barely any material, and the customer is happy. If I were you, Dazman, I would buy a cartridge roll kit from standard abrasives (like $20), disassemble the heads and hand finish them. You will be pleased with the result.

Trevor @ Texas Speed & Perf.

iTrader: (3)

You say that it doesn't look right. What is this based on? This is the same 230cc intake port that we sell to every customer that orders a set of PRC LS6 cylinder heads.

I've covered this as extensively as possible. You have an entirely different runner than what was used in the cylinder head that had the problem. This is no longer an issue since we do not use that port anymore. This was the main reason we developed the smaller 230cc runner.

So you're asking why we even CNC the heads? We didn't intentionally leave the original casting surface in part of the intake runner because it was "top notch". When we develop a port and CNC it into a cylinder head, we are effectively changing the entire port. It is getting completely reshaped. If the cylinder head started with an incredibly small runner size like the Edelbrock castings, then we could have an entirely CNC'ed runner and chamber. Edelbrock does this on purpose so porters can cut their specific port into their casting. GM developed their cylinder heads to be used on production cars. They didn't have cylinder head porters in mind when they decided to pour a specific casting. We develop a new port that can be CNC'ed into the production casting that flows and works well. Had we finished the entire port out, we'd be having an in-depth discussion about how the runner is too big or is too thin.

You can reference my comments above, as well as my previous post and multiple posts in the other thread. The runner has been changed. I don't know any other way to get this point across to everyone. You would have a valid point if we were still using the same runner, but we're not.

I ENCOURAGE you to post pictures! It's not like we're trying to hide anything! Your cylinder heads have the same port that we send out to all of our customers that purchase LS6 cylinder heads. These are the same heads that people are posting great results with. You are upset because the heads aren't as aesthetically pleasing as you'd like or expected. Again, we built a runner to perform. You could use some cartridge rolls to polish a runner out, but what exactly are you getting from that? You're not gaining any flow, and you won't see the runner again once the heads are installed on the car. If you decide to polish your heads, I ask that you get before and after flow numbers from them. You will only prove what we have known from the beginning.

Trevor
Texas Speed & Performance