robertbartsch

I saw the recent article about the up comming engine master challenge.

Most of the 30 contestents will build chevy big bolock; some will build dodge/benz wedge heads and only two will build dodge/benz hemi engines.

Question: If the hemi heads flow so well why aren't more engine builders using the hemi?

Do the modern fast-burn heads flow and perform as well as the old hemi heads?

LS1derfull

Yes, if those mopar guys build theirs with old style hemi heads they will be at a disadvantage IMO. Wedge designs give better combustion than Hemi and flow is similar between the two. Normally aspirated Hemi is not ideal.

Richard@WCCH

iTrader: (3)

I'm no betting man, but I'm pretty sure that a wedge (Dodge or Buick) will rule at this years Engine Masters. The formula places a premium on a broad torque average and that is a one of several aspects that favor the wedge. Also, lifter diameter is larger on the Dodge. What ever the case, this years challenge has some very impressive engine builders. My guess is that the engines are going to have to make approx. 770+hp and 670+tq.

Richard

robertbartsch

Really?

Why do you think so many are building Chevys? ...more after market components availible for these engines?

Why do you suppose no one is building an aluminum blocked big Chevy (e.g., Donovan etc.)?

LS1derfull

Oh dont worry there will be Big Block Chevy representation, with broad torque curve as well! Im not sure aluminum blocks are allowed but, they dont add power anyway. It will be real interesting to see who shines in the end.

robertbartsch

..the guy who won (Sherman) the small block competition last year used lots of special coatings on his bearings, pistons, etc.....

...I don't beleive these have general use in street engines; right?

promod1955

iTrader: (44)

calico coated alot of the stuff.... in high end street engines they use these bearings. calico usually uses clevite 77 bearings and then coats them.

LOnSLO

iTrader: (15)

On a side note, is this event televised?

Rhino

iTrader: (6)

incase somebody else out there is just as clueless about the Engine master challenge as I was... here's this years official rules

http://www.popularhotrodding.com/eng...ge/2003/rules/

Cheatin' Chad

iTrader: (3)

Coatings will definitely help for street use. They lower friction and help manage heat.Heat barriers on pitons tops and friction reducing coatings on the skirts.Heat coating in the intake ports help keep the charge cooler. Coatings in the exhaust ports help the heat go out the headers instead of into the heads,etc.A few piston companies sell their pistons off the shelf with coatings on the skirts.Many, many, other uses as well.

In my opinion there is LOTS of power and reliability to be found in these coatings.

Richard@WCCH

iTrader: (3)

Ls1derfull is correct. No aluminum blocks allowed. No doubt coatings are going to play some role in the winning engine. By my numbers, there are over 25 BB Chevy entries. I guess there's a wider variety of parts available for the Chevy than the rest of the makes. So far the numbers look like this:
27 Chevys
5 Fords
3 Caddys
9 Mopars
3 Pontiacs
2 Olds
2 Buicks
The Chevy crowd has the numbers, but the suprise is the number of Mopars compared to Fords. This year for sure there are some very serious engine builders no matter what the make.

Richard

blu00rdstr

How are coatings applied? I'm about to assemble, and I'd hate to ship parts off and wait..again.

I'm sure there's more to 'additive' or moly lube.

Speedfreaks101

As far as Sherman goes, he has been my favorite engine builder for a long time and he does enter this contest then my money is on Joe. I can only hope that in the future he turns more to the LS1.

As far as the EMC I would be on a Chevy winning because of head selection Like the new AFR that flows around 425 in unported form but TA Performance has a set of Stage 4 Buick Big Block head that would be competitive and there were rumors of a Stage 5 head. I think that the Big Block Caddys might have teething problems because the new aftermarket cylinder heads may be too new. I also think that the Olds will be finishing last. When Edelbrock made the heads for the Olds it was not designed to flow near as well as the Edelbrock Pontiac aluminum heads. As far as peak HP though I would look to the Mopar crowd.

How can we find out who is competing?

robertbartsch

Since OLDs are no longer manufactured by the General, why are these engines permitted?

LS1derfull

Dude i am best friends with Joe sherman for a long time, he is in this year's contest, and your right he does know his *****! I have been working on getting him into LS1's, i even offered to send him a head to port for some feed back and to see what he can do. If you would like to contact him his # is 714-542-0515 at his shop. great guy and his brother is a wild fabricator/plumber who is working on a twin turbo setup for his 9 second Falcon.

robertbartsch

Sherman won $75,000 in last years' Hot Rod Magizine's small block engine builders contest. He won 1st place...


I thought he used a Mopar; right?

What engine is he planning to use for the big-block competition?

I don't know why alumium blocks are excluded but special coatings are permited- a dumb rule!

LS1derfull

Joe is entering BBC for contest. As for aluminum blocks, they are considered exotic and not available to all makes, but coatings can be used by all entrants. Joe did win $75k
but alot of sponsors dragged their feet in paying! How scummy!

LS1derfull

[quote]
Sherman won $75,000 in last years' Hot Rod Magizine's small block engine builders contest. He won 1st place...


I thought he used a Mopar; right?

No he used a small block Chevy, only the true king should wear that crown! LOL SBC has powered more champions than all brand x's combined!

SStrokerAce

iTrader: (2)

"My guess is that the engines are going to have to make approx. 770+hp and 670+tq."

Rich, I think we will be looking at alot more power than that. I say this because there should be some improvement over laster years motors. My guess is mid 700 lbs ft and 800+hp out of the winners. I say this because I was/am entered this year but money and time ran out, so I just get to spectate the event this year.

The BBC I still think is the motor to beat, true there are now Hemi, Mopar, Buick, Caddy, Ford and Olds heads that are over 400cfm but I don't see any of them making this cfm with any good mid lift numbers. A BBC AFR really has alot of flow in that area. The max lift is going to be around .650 or so on these things this year, due to the 1.7:1 rule and the flat tappets. You'll see less in the BBC and more in the Mopars and Olds due to the larger lifter diameters.

The new heads that are out for the Caddy are interesting, and with the guy who designed them in the contest it should be interesting to see. They also have a new Olds head too, which will give some awesome numbers, and there is even a new Pontiac head.

My thoughts on it were that even with all of this new stuff the BBC is the way to go. It has two down falls, one is the lifter diameter and the other is the large combustion chambers. The other aspects of it's design, especailly the heads are a big advantage. A head properly setup for this contest would have over 400cfm @.600" lift. I'd also run a nice large bore with it like a 4.500" or bigger to get the most flow from the heads and widen out the piston dome some too. On top of that the parts selection is a big plus. Getting CNC machined aftermarket blocks from 3 different companies helps, any good engine builder will tell you that a well machined block is worth about 20hp in itself.

Joe Sherman does have a good shot at this again, because he will have tons and tons of dyno time on it. That's why I just called it quits earlier this month. The dyno time is the biggest thing here, the more tuning and testing on the dyno you get is a big deal, and I knew I wasn't going to have enough time for that. Joe also has years of experience and if his motor last year was any indication he does the right things to make power. Last year he won because of the right combination, which is what this is all about. I know the guys good, but the things that will beat him this year if someone does is either the wrong engine choice (which I don't think is going to happen) or not enough expertise in the airflow area. Don't get me wrong he's very good, but a there are some head porters out there who could put a better set of heads on his motor and find some power there.

As for the coatings, you have to have them to win this deal. The motor we had in it last year, which had a problem with the oil pump nut, in our testing was off the top spot by just about what the coatings would have given us. There is about 2+% in coatings on these motors so it's definately worth it. (FWIW, the motor had specs that were very similar to Joe's)

As for the Hemi's, you need alot more money to compete with one. That and they might flow good tope end numbers, but the mid lifts are not as good. The Hemi combustion chamber does not burn as well as a heart shaped one like we have on the LS1 or any good aftermarket head for tradtional wedge type style heads. They also have one heavy big valvetrain on top of them too.

If I have to put a guess on what it takes to win this year. At least 850 HP at peak, 750 lbs ft at peak and over 1350 for your total score. My design would have been at least at those specs, and with the guys in this I expect that we should see that.

Bret

66ImpalaLT1

They didnt drop off the face of the planet when they stopped being produced.