HD6.0l

Fowler boys at Xtreme Horesepwer (Add this site) will rip you off , charged $350 for Dyno tune , said would take all day , left truck with them in the morning and that evening at 3:00 had not touched truck .
Said would give me more horsepower (20 to 40) and not mess with shift timing or fuel milage , guess what , changed shift timing , hurt fuel milage , and tune ran like crap , gave them 3 tries to fix tune , then had Wait4me re-flash .
$350 for nothing and will not return money , BIG RIP OFF , STAY FAR AWAY FROM THEM .
Waited long enough for response , B.B.B next .
Arvil Fowler , owner .

Xman

iTrader: (3)

Letter sent 3-10-06..............

I am certainly concerned and disappointed that you are dissatisfied with our service at Xtreme Horsepower. We make every attempt to please our customers and would like for you to be happy.

When you asked me to revise the tune on your 2005 Chevy 1500HD, you asked me to modify the computer to provide for increased performance. Our standard rate for tuning for your application is $xxx. We agreed on a reduced rate of $xxx. Our performance off-road tune is designed to improve horsepower at rpm levels above 3500 rpm. Based on your request we focused our attention on improving horsepower. I explained to you that this tune was designed for off-road use on a modified vehicle and that to optimize performance you should consider other modifications commonly used by performance enthusiasts such as header and exhaust modifications.

To achieve your goal we gauge performance by measuring horsepower on the dyno. From your earlier visit to Xtreme Horsepower we had a measurement recorded of 256.1 hp. You also stated that you had an existing modified computer in your truck that you obtained via mail order exchange and that you were hoping for improvements on that modified tune. You had changed this tune numerous times and that you were not pleased with the resulting tune.

When I modified your tune, horsepower was increased to 265.4 hp. I provided you with a dyno sheet confirming this data. I noticed that this modification was the limit due to a problem encountered that I suspected was related to deficient fuel below an octane rating of 91 octane. You later confirmed that you used the cheapest gas that you could find at the octane level of 87. I told you that you must use an octane of 91 or higher for a performance tune to show increased results. You even provided me literature related to performance tunes on a similar vehicle to your vehicle that explicitly stated that to achieve a performance tune that high octane ratings of 91+ must be used. I made no changes to the transmission data at this time. I did modify the rev limiter.

Based on your request I revised the rev limiter back to its original number. You mentioned that you had fuel economy that was lower than before and that your transmission shift seemed mushy. I told you that wide open throttle test drives would contribute to your decrease in fuel economy and that I would now modify your transmission based on your request. I told you that the transmission parameters related to shift time were below the recommended numbers in the original tune.

You ask me to modify your tune using lean cruise. I told you that this feature was not available in your vehicle. I also told you that the only way that I could achieve increased fuel economy was to install a custom operating system in your truck. You told me that you would consider it.

I made several changes to your tune and after several changes you seemed happy with the results.

You then came back in and ask me to restore your tune to the original tune that you came into my shop with. I complied with this request.

In summary, you asked me for a performance tune:

I increased horsepower by 9.3 hp.
I gave you data to verify the performance gain.
I recommended using 91+ octane for increased performance.
I modified the transmission upon your request.
I gave you an option for fuel economy that you declined.
I returned your tune to the original tune upon your request.

Mr. Morrow, I have complied with your every request and even provided you with advice on how to further improve your performance and economy.

If you will bring me your truck with a near empty fuel tank I will fill the tank with 91+ octane and tune it with an off-road tune that will meet your performance request. Your right foot will continue to be the controlling factor for your fuel economy.

Xman

iTrader: (3)

Letter sent 3-15-06.......

I am certainly concerned and disappointed that you are dissatisfied with our service at Xtreme Horsepower. We make every attempt to please our customers and would like for you to be happy.

Mr. Morrow, I have complied with your every request and even provided you with advice on how to further improve your performance and economy.

If you will bring me your truck with a near empty fuel tank I will fill the tank with 91+ octane and tune it with an off-road tune that will meet your performance request. Your right foot will continue to be the controlling factor for your fuel economy.

Xman

iTrader: (3)

My offer still stands

HD6.0l

To be fair , I would accept refund of 1/2 of the 350 (175) you charged me for the tune , seeing you did 2 ( you owed me one from the Dyno Day runs) dyno pulls and flashed the computer 3 times (you kept a copy of my origianl tune so you have a tune file that cost me 150) .
Prehaps now you could do better , seeing you have had more time to learn the program , but I just can't bring myself to let you try , seeing how bad you did the first time .
To bad also , the club was going to have another Dyno day but it will be some where else this year .

GEARHED

iTrader: (5)

I am a bit confused on many points brought up.
Date was it first dyno & tuned?
Date of second dyno & tune?
Letter sent by Xtreme HP 3/10/06 indicates this was the *second* dyno & tune though its difficult to tell.
What mileage (as well as type: off road or commute/general freeway) from first tune to second tune?
Any additional modifications from first tune to second tune?

It appears as if Xtreme HorsePower complied with all your requests on two occasions including a discount for their services. They informed you there would be additional needs for your vehicle to achieve desired performance, some of which you indicated you were aware of. There is also the consideration your vehicle is not able to be tuned for 'lean cruise' without some modifications, did you do the modifications or others that now allow for that? It also appears you did not understand nor follow the information given to you by XHP (such as using 91 octane instead of 87) and did a bit of DYI tuning in between visits though this is not clear.
It may be a case of misunderstanding: increase in performance for horsepower will sacrifice some fuel economy - could it be you wanted fuel economy with a lesser increase in horsepower? You can't have both higher HP with lower fuel economy, it is not possible on your vehicle without further modifications.

Granted this is only one comphrensive and factual side of the story though if the listed work performed for $350 by Xtreme HorsePower is inexpensive not to mention *two* follow up letters with offers to once again, try to tune your vehicle to what you now want.

I have to ask HD6.0l: if the dyno and tune took place sometime in February/March 06' then possibly again in Sept/Oct, what is the true reason you are bringing this up now? If you had a dyno & tune in early spring then again in the past month, would you not expect some difference in performance?

HD6.0l

Beware of the Fowler boys at Xtreme Horsepower , they will take your money and mess up your truck .
They also took my tune file from my truck , which I had payed for . I asked them to do a Dyno Tune , horsepower only , for me after a Dyno day at their shop , Fowler said he could get me 20 to 40 more horsepower with a Dyno tune (9.3 was all I got ).
He also told me he would not mess with my shift point or fuel milage , after droping off the truck in the morning , I returned at 3:00 to see how it was progressing , Fowler said he had not touched the truck , after stating the day before he would need the truck all day to do a proper tune .
After picking up the truck that evening , 5:00 or so , I noticed on the way home that the truck shifted like a stock truck again . I called Fowler the next day and told him of the problem , he had me bring it back in , I asked why did it shift like that , Fowler stated he saw that the shift timing was to fast (Wait4me had set those tables to those specs), I asked what he meant , he stated that the shift timing should be at .300 and it was at .100 , I then asked why did you mess with the shift timing you were not going to do anything to those tables so why did you .
Long story short , I got what he (Fowler) wanted to do to my truck and not what he was asked to do ,horsepower only 20 to 40 horsepower and not mess with shift or fuel milage , I saw his tune files on EFILive and noticed he only had 4 files , 1 Camaro , and 3 of mine 1 of which was my original tune that I payed Wait4me to do . 350 for 9.3 horsepower , I could have bought a cam and gained double or tripple that , awful pricey I would say .
The last and final try , for me anyways , he (Fowler) made the truck have a surge a WOT at around 4000 rpm , would go flat , then surge , that was enough for me .
Stay Away From Them .
I re-posted this seeing that someone had removed the last post from this site , that tells you something there .
Freedom of speech .
Fowler honestly thinks he did a good tune , I wish I had the tune file to post so others could see how bad it really was .
Think God Wait4me reflashed the PCM back to the origianl tune for me , runs strong like it should now , again .

Zick

iTrader: (18)

Did you delete your old thread about this?
I know there was one already but its gone now. Oh well, I'm sure somebody will bring it back....


EDIT: Nevermind, they are a sponsor and you already made a post about them there. No need for this one.

Xman

iTrader: (3)

Gilbert,
You have every right to vent your frustrations even if they are misguided.

I made a mistake, actually several. I did forget to ask you about the fuel that you were using. I assumed (my mistake) that since you asked for a performance tune that you were using 91+ octane. I would have told you that you will have smaller gains with 87 octane. You later told me "I use the cheapest 87 octane gas that I can buy." Do you think that any racers run 87 octane? If they told you that then this was just one of many racers little white lies.

I did tell you that your loss of fuel economy during your testing was due to your constant WOT (this means wide open throttle) testing. My mistake again when I assumed that you could comprehend this statement.

The work on your trans was based on your request to resolve in your on words "a mushy shift." I am sure that you had memory loss on this one.

The surge at 4000 rpm is news to me. This is the 1st time that you mentioned this issue. I can't fix a problem that I am unaware of.

I don't know what you thought you saw on my computer but you must not know much about tuners if you think that I show customers my tune files. I have tuned vehicles with EFILive, HPtuners, FAST, Accel DFI, AEM, TunerCats, Autronic, Holley 950, Diablosport, LS1 Edit to name a few. Do you really think that I share my customers tune files with other customers? Get the point!

You have no right to be unhappy with my services, and you continue to bash me when I have offered to pay for a tank of 91+ octane, retune your truck and resolve this issue.

As for the rest of your comments, I certainly thought that you were more of a honest, honorable man than your actions indicate.

Xman

iTrader: (3)

For those interested...

The customer (Gilbert) did come back to my shop on Nov 4 to work out our issues. He currently has purchased EFI Live and is tuning his truck. His current issues were resolved by advising him on tuning. I worked with him for several hours advising him on the use of his software and answered his tuning questions. I advised on his modifications to the transmission tables and the engine management tables. He has modified both the pressure and the shift time commanded tables. He is using a custom OS and tuning without a WB O2 and remaining in SD. I told him of the perils of tuning without good AFR information. To help him out I put his truck on my dyno. The result AFR is 13.3 to 13.5 at WOT above 3500 rpm with Knock retard up to 5 degrees using 87 octane. I again offered to supply a higher octane fuel to show the merits of 93+ octane. He said that he does not see knock when he is doing road testing and wondered why it appeared when on the dyno. I told him that the dyno load is probably higher that the load that he is seeing with WOT under the conditions that he has on the street (I rode with him during street testing and he went into WOT at a 20-30 mph roll.) He said that he only wanted to tune with 87 because this is all that he is going to use and did not see the point of using a higher octane fuel. Again I complied with his every request on this meeting and feel that this issue is resolved.

Xman

iTrader: (3)

For those interested...

The customer (Gilbert) did come back to my shop on Nov 4 to work out our issues. He currently has purchased EFI Live and is tuning his truck. His current issues were resolved by advising him on tuning. I worked with him for several hours advising him on the use of his software and answered his tuning questions. I advised on his modifications to the transmission tables and the engine management tables. He has modified both the pressure and the shift time commanded tables. He is using a custom OS and tuning without a WB O2 and remaining in SD. I told him of the perils of tuning without good AFR information. To help him out I put his truck on my dyno. The result AFR is 13.3 to 13.5 at WOT above 3500 rpm with Knock retard up to 5 degrees using 87 octane. I again offered to supply a higher octane fuel to show the merits of 93+ octane. He said that he does not see knock when he is doing road testing and wondered why it appeared when on the dyno. I told him that the dyno load is probably higher that the load that he is seeing with WOT under the conditions that he has on the street (I rode with him during street testing and he went into WOT at a 20-30 mph roll.) He said that he only wanted to tune with 87 because this is all that he is going to use and did not see the point of using a higher octane fuel. Again I complied with his every request on this meeting and feel that this issue is resolved.
__________________
Arvil Fowler

CANTEX

iTrader: (2)

why would you spend all that money on a performance tune etc and then cheap out on the fuel you run? If you want to run for economy tune for economy, if you want performance then its clear you need to run the better fuel grade. Yeah you coulda bought a cam but you would have had to tune for 91+ If you pay $2 a gallon for 25 gallons thats $50... if you buy 25 gallons of 91+ for 20 cents more its $55. Im just saying I would seem if your willing to spend money on programmers and programs then your cheaping out on your fuel grade makes little sense.

csmc711

iTrader: (4)

I useually keep my mouth shut under all the bickering between other poeple, but, IF Xman did all he said, to help this guy out after, I do not care if Xman WAS the shittiest tuner in the universe, at least he was cool enough to work with the guy.

HD6.0l

He is such a lier , MY FIRST AND FORMOST REQUEST WAS A REFUND , WHICH I DID NOT GET , the only thing he got right is I do have EFILIve . I informed Arvil HOW I TUNED MY TRANSMISSION MYSELF , after I put a TransGo kit in , my knowledge of the COS3 is more than his , he had never used it at that time . he may think the issue is resolved he can print anything he wants but I can tell you it is CRAP what he did and he knows it .
He said that 13.2 (not 13.5 , because I was commanding 13.0 PE COS3 ) was way to lean for a engine , HUMM 12.8 to 13.2 is fine for a naturally aspirated engine (as a tuner will tell you some engines like lean some don't) , turbo under boost needs to be richer , I can tell you for a fact now that I have EFILive , HE IS A FRAUD . With the COS3 you can command whatever AFR or PE you wish , so that means in the AFR cells at cruise speed you can command 15.x and get some good mileage , almost like lean cruise .
Have read several posts on the 87 , 93 octane issue , and 87 can get some awesome power , 93 maybe more but you can get power from 87 as well .
I did a couch tune better than his so called Dyno tune .
Most people who do REAL TUNES will tell you a Dyno is a tool , nothing beats a street tune , because a Dyno , good as they are are not the same as a street tune , under real conditions and real loads .
And the other MORON who posted here about this , HOW MUCH DID ARVIL PAY YOU FOR THAT POST , moron .
I AM A DANGEROUS KIND OF CUSTOMER , I AM INFORMED .

HD6.0l

He is such a lier , MY FIRST AND FORMOST REQUEST WAS A REFUND , WHICH I DID NOT GET , the only thing he got right is I do have EFILIve . I informed Arvil HOW I TUNED MY TRANSMISSION MYSELF , after I put a TransGo kit in , my knowledge of the COS3 is more than his , he had never used it at that time . he may think the issue is resolved he can print anything he wants but I can tell you it is CRAP what he did and he knows it .
He said that 13.2 (not 13.5 , because I was commanding 13.0 PE COS3 ) was way to lean for a engine , HUMM 12.8 to 13.2 is fine for a naturally aspirated engine (as a tuner will tell you some engines like lean some don't) , turbo under boost needs to be richer , I can tell you for a fact now that I have EFILive , HE IS A FRAUD . With the COS3 you can command whatever AFR or PE you wish , so that means in the AFR cells at cruise speed you can command 15.x and get some good mileage , almost like lean cruise .
Have read several posts on the 87 , 93 octane issue , and 87 can get some awesome power , 93 maybe more but you can get power from 87 as well .
I did a couch tune better than his so called Dyno tune .
Most people who do REAL TUNES will tell you a Dyno is a tool , nothing beats a street tune , because a Dyno , good as they are are not the same as a street tune , under real conditions and real loads .

I AM A DANGEROUS KIND OF CUSTOMER , I AM INFORMED .

Xman

iTrader: (3)

Gilbert,
This is your email to me in Oct 06:
“Arvil , you recently offered on a forum to tune my truck again rather than return any money to me, after a lot of consideration I will accept your offer on one condition , I get to be there the whole time when you do the tune , no dropping off and leaving the truck with you . If this is acceptable please contact me at this e-mail address with date and time. You stated that you would re tune the truck with higher octane fuel. Morrow”

My reply was:
“Dates that are available include: Tuesday,Oct 31; Friday,Nov 3; or
Saturday,Nov 4. If one of these days won't work for you then just let me
know. You can pick any day and any time from to arrive from 10am to 6pm.”

Are you the same person (Gilbert) that came to my shop? Is there more than one Gilbert Morrow? Are you disputing the fact that these things happened?

You declined my offer to put 93 octane in your truck. When you arrived you only wanted to dyno the truck with the 87 octane in your truck with your tune in the truck. I did dyno your truck according to your directions. I showed you the dyno and logged data from your truck. You did tune without a wideband. Your truck did have 5 degrees of knock retard due to your tune. Your air/fuel ratio was between 13.3 and 13.5 at WOT. You brought your laptop and I helped you with your questions about tuning. I did not modify your tune. I gave you credit in the post for your tune.

I DID NOT LIE TO YOU!

Xman

iTrader: (3)

Email on or about Feb 26:

From Gilbert: “Arvil , anyone do EFILive classes around here close ?
Also I have the LC-1 wideband and you said you would help me calibrate it when I
got it , still a open offer ? Thanks GM “

To Gilbert: “I have been working with EFI University to host a class. We do not have
date set yet. And yes I will help you with your LC-1.

Email on or about March 19-26

To Gilbert: “You can now register for the EFI live class in the DFW area in our shop at EFI101.com Thanks for your interest.”

From Gilbert: “I knew they could make it to the DFW area. How did you persuade them?

To Gilbert: “ I had been been planning it with Ben (owner of EFI University) for over a year. The timing is based on demand. Your input as well as others set the time. Thanks”

From Gilbert: “The only problem is I looked,the class would not interest me unless it is the
advanced class , which it is not. Maybe when they do the advanced class I will attend .”

GEARHED

iTrader: (5)

These post accomplish nothing. Sponsor has replied, situation was not brought up immediately and now these belated responses are not needed.

Thread goes into lockdown and new threads will be deleted.