DOD Cam Swap (formerly known as Preliminary Feedback On New Era G8GT Cam in an LS4)
06-08-2010, 12:38 PM
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DOD Cam Swap (formerly known as Preliminary Feedback On New Era G8GT Cam in an LS4) Update with some Build Pics:
Rather than start a new post, I've decided to add to this one so the conversation stays in one place. Personally, I hate conversations that jump from thread to thread. So, here are the build pics. Everything else is intact.
The gist of the story is that I swapped in the New Era DOD cam and installed the Thorley headers.
Besides the cam, the New Era kit includes PAC 1218 springs, Trickflow 7.45" pushrods, and a new crank seal. The new cam has a smaller base circle, and the lobes go all the way to the edge of the blank (they didn't on the old cam). The kit doesn't include a new crank bolt, but most dealers should have one. They're $6 or so. They are torque to yield, and it took every bit of strength I had to hit that 140 degrees spec (I think I overshot a bit, but I was driving the breaker bar with all 250lbs.). I safely reused the water gaskets and timing cover gasket, but I've got just under 40,000 on the odo. They aren't very expensive if you wanted to replace them. Rather than lay out everything I did, I'll just point to ls1howto.com as a good reference for swaps into ls engines. I also followed all torque specs during assembly, and I used Lucas Assembly Lube on everything. I didn't have any issues turning the motor over as far as metal on metal grinding sounds, so I'd recommend it.
There's more to the story below in my original post, but here are some pics of the swap:
Where's the rest of the car?
The scene of the crime:
Cherry picker on the bumper (by the way, there is just enough clearance once the A/C line just goes taught to get the cam in and out):
Part way apart:
Old Cam, New Cam...
Just enough room (notice the hanging lifter in the background? Pen magnets are helpful but not infallible. We used a cleaned broom handle to push it back and grab it again.)
And now we return to our regularly scheduled post...
Original Post:
Before you drop a
on me, I'll put together another thread with pictures, vids, times, etc. At the moment I don't have any pics, but JDMC5 and my Brother-in-Law do. I just wanted to throw some feedback out there.
First off, this was a lot of work. In no particular order, I had all kinds of fun with the nut off of the alternator power lead, the hardline coming out of the power steering pump, the boot on the steering intermediate shaft, and a crappy valve spring compressor I rented from Autozone (the worst part is that I found the one I had thought I had lost 5 years ago when putting my tools away
). I would never have believed it possible, but when I was unscrewing the rockers on the rear head my arm caught the loose alternator nut (thanks bro!) and spun it off, shooting it into the head where it ricocheted off of a valve spring and somehow got over the head bolt and down into the lifter galley (which I didn't realize was there). We took the engine apart further looking for it, until I realized that it was either in that galley or on top of a lifter. Jesse was over then and he must have spent at least an hour messing around before he miraculously fished it out. I was busy looking for the right object to hit myself in the head with.
Yes, it lives, and it lopes! I almost had an accident when I first turned it over and watched flame belch from the open header. It was positively NASCARish. Of course, I'm still running the stock cat back so you have to know what you are listening for to know what's up.
I still have a lot of tuning work to do. It's not idling very well right now, and it really doesn't like starting. The MAF tune was still pretty good. The engine also really likes power enrichment, so I may start bringing that on a lot sooner than I was (I was previously keeping it out of PE for the most part to help mileage).
My first impressions on power are really good. I didn't lose enough bottom end to really be noticeable, and I'm sure that my gearing has offset whatever little bit I did lose. It still pulls up hills OK in 4th, TCC locked at 1500RPM. Once I hit 4000RPM it's like a whole new engine. I'm so used to torque falling off (slowly to be sure) after 4000RPM that it is really nice to feel it come into it's own and plant my head back. It pulls nicely to 6500RPM, and if I was looking to take it to the next level with my valvetrain and connecting rods this bad boy could easily pull a little higher.
My major issues are rebuilding the VE tables, getting the MAP to stop complaining (which in turn makes the TCS/ESC system complain, and I hate that beep, beep, bong-bong sequence now), improving idle quality, figuring out if my belt squeaking is the sign of a misalignment, and going back over the scratches on the inside of the fender with touch up paint.
Rather than start a new post, I've decided to add to this one so the conversation stays in one place. Personally, I hate conversations that jump from thread to thread. So, here are the build pics. Everything else is intact.
The gist of the story is that I swapped in the New Era DOD cam and installed the Thorley headers.
Besides the cam, the New Era kit includes PAC 1218 springs, Trickflow 7.45" pushrods, and a new crank seal. The new cam has a smaller base circle, and the lobes go all the way to the edge of the blank (they didn't on the old cam). The kit doesn't include a new crank bolt, but most dealers should have one. They're $6 or so. They are torque to yield, and it took every bit of strength I had to hit that 140 degrees spec (I think I overshot a bit, but I was driving the breaker bar with all 250lbs.). I safely reused the water gaskets and timing cover gasket, but I've got just under 40,000 on the odo. They aren't very expensive if you wanted to replace them. Rather than lay out everything I did, I'll just point to ls1howto.com as a good reference for swaps into ls engines. I also followed all torque specs during assembly, and I used Lucas Assembly Lube on everything. I didn't have any issues turning the motor over as far as metal on metal grinding sounds, so I'd recommend it.
There's more to the story below in my original post, but here are some pics of the swap:
Where's the rest of the car?
The scene of the crime:
Cherry picker on the bumper (by the way, there is just enough clearance once the A/C line just goes taught to get the cam in and out):
Part way apart:
Old Cam, New Cam...
Just enough room (notice the hanging lifter in the background? Pen magnets are helpful but not infallible. We used a cleaned broom handle to push it back and grab it again.)
And now we return to our regularly scheduled post...
Original Post:
Before you drop a
on me, I'll put together another thread with pictures, vids, times, etc. At the moment I don't have any pics, but JDMC5 and my Brother-in-Law do. I just wanted to throw some feedback out there.First off, this was a lot of work. In no particular order, I had all kinds of fun with the nut off of the alternator power lead, the hardline coming out of the power steering pump, the boot on the steering intermediate shaft, and a crappy valve spring compressor I rented from Autozone (the worst part is that I found the one I had thought I had lost 5 years ago when putting my tools away
). I would never have believed it possible, but when I was unscrewing the rockers on the rear head my arm caught the loose alternator nut (thanks bro!) and spun it off, shooting it into the head where it ricocheted off of a valve spring and somehow got over the head bolt and down into the lifter galley (which I didn't realize was there). We took the engine apart further looking for it, until I realized that it was either in that galley or on top of a lifter. Jesse was over then and he must have spent at least an hour messing around before he miraculously fished it out. I was busy looking for the right object to hit myself in the head with.Yes, it lives, and it lopes! I almost had an accident when I first turned it over and watched flame belch from the open header. It was positively NASCARish. Of course, I'm still running the stock cat back so you have to know what you are listening for to know what's up.
I still have a lot of tuning work to do. It's not idling very well right now, and it really doesn't like starting. The MAF tune was still pretty good. The engine also really likes power enrichment, so I may start bringing that on a lot sooner than I was (I was previously keeping it out of PE for the most part to help mileage).
My first impressions on power are really good. I didn't lose enough bottom end to really be noticeable, and I'm sure that my gearing has offset whatever little bit I did lose. It still pulls up hills OK in 4th, TCC locked at 1500RPM. Once I hit 4000RPM it's like a whole new engine. I'm so used to torque falling off (slowly to be sure) after 4000RPM that it is really nice to feel it come into it's own and plant my head back. It pulls nicely to 6500RPM, and if I was looking to take it to the next level with my valvetrain and connecting rods this bad boy could easily pull a little higher.
My major issues are rebuilding the VE tables, getting the MAP to stop complaining (which in turn makes the TCS/ESC system complain, and I hate that beep, beep, bong-bong sequence now), improving idle quality, figuring out if my belt squeaking is the sign of a misalignment, and going back over the scratches on the inside of the fender with touch up paint.
Last edited by nmp0098; 06-20-2010 at 01:12 AM. Reason: added pics
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06-15-2010, 12:39 AM
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no idea what the cam specs are but probably in the 220 range. The car has a pretty nasty idle but it's really quiet with the stock catback. It drives like stock too. Car feels like it has over 400hp. We still need to make a video of it. Nate talked about going to milan this week so we might have some track numbers later this week.
On a hot humid day him with 700 lbs worth of bodies in the car it felt very powerful. power comes on really hard at 4000rpm and feels like it wants to go to 7K.
On a hot humid day him with 700 lbs worth of bodies in the car it felt very powerful. power comes on really hard at 4000rpm and feels like it wants to go to 7K.
06-15-2010, 07:57 AM
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no idea what the cam specs are but probably in the 220 range. The car has a pretty nasty idle but it's really quiet with the stock catback. It drives like stock too. Car feels like it has over 400hp. We still need to make a video of it. Nate talked about going to milan this week so we might have some track numbers later this week.
On a hot humid day him with 700 lbs worth of bodies in the car it felt very powerful. power comes on really hard at 4000rpm and feels like it wants to go to 7K.
On a hot humid day him with 700 lbs worth of bodies in the car it felt very powerful. power comes on really hard at 4000rpm and feels like it wants to go to 7K.
06-16-2010, 01:10 PM
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My brother-in-law has all of the good ones, but I did finally break down and buy a camera with my first-born coming soon. I took an exhaust vid a few days ago, but a bird had somehow pooped right in the middle of the back of my bumper, so I'm gonna shoot another one. I cleaned it yesterday. I'll post again tonight after I get back from the Milan Dragway. My boss is coming too, so hopefully he'll get some good vids with my camera.
Milan has $25 test and tune session on Wednesday and Friday starting at 4PM. They use NHRA rules, so you'll need a helmet if you run fast enough (13.99 iirc). I'm going today after work, just to run a couple different AFRs and check mph. My brakes are in a sorry state until I finish my new TB adapter that's plumbed with a 1/2" NPT fitting for the booster, so I can't power brake much beyond 2200RPM without really working it. So, I expect my 60' times to stink. This will be my first time heading down to Milan, so I'll let you know how nice it is.
Milan has $25 test and tune session on Wednesday and Friday starting at 4PM. They use NHRA rules, so you'll need a helmet if you run fast enough (13.99 iirc). I'm going today after work, just to run a couple different AFRs and check mph. My brakes are in a sorry state until I finish my new TB adapter that's plumbed with a 1/2" NPT fitting for the booster, so I can't power brake much beyond 2200RPM without really working it. So, I expect my 60' times to stink. This will be my first time heading down to Milan, so I'll let you know how nice it is.
06-16-2010, 02:44 PM
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Milan has $25 test and tune session on Wednesday and Friday starting at 4PM. They use NHRA rules, so you'll need a helmet if you run fast enough (13.99 iirc). I'm going today after work, just to run a couple different AFRs and check mph. My brakes are in a sorry state until I finish my new TB adapter that's plumbed with a 1/2" NPT fitting for the booster, so I can't power brake much beyond 2200RPM without really working it. So, I expect my 60' times to stink. This will be my first time heading down to Milan, so I'll let you know how nice it is.
06-16-2010, 09:11 PM
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Man our cars use a big *** power brake hose. jeez..... I had to drill and tap my tb adapter for a 90* 1/2" fitting. I was going to use 3/8" and then realized that it was going to be way.... too small! In fact th 1/2" fitting is almost to small.
06-16-2010, 11:23 PM
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Milan has $25 test and tune session on Wednesday and Friday starting at 4PM. They use NHRA rules, so you'll need a helmet if you run fast enough (13.99 iirc). I'm going today after work, just to run a couple different AFRs and check mph. My brakes are in a sorry state until I finish my new TB adapter that's plumbed with a 1/2" NPT fitting for the booster, so I can't power brake much beyond 2200RPM without really working it. So, I expect my 60' times to stink. This will be my first time heading down to Milan, so I'll let you know how nice it is.
06-17-2010, 12:38 PM
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Well, I ran terribly. A good bit of it was my inability to get a good launch, but there were a lot of issues with the car too. But, that's why they call it a test and tune. Before I make my excuses, I'll just throw out there that I ran a 14.47 at 101.34 with a 2.3880 60'. Terrible, but now I'll get to the buts.
I had a hell of a time getting the car to launch well. I alternated bogging with burning up the tires. I haven't really practiced much since the cam swap since I've been mostly tuning it and just driving to and from work. My 60' times were in the 2.6-2.7 range for most of the runs. So I've got to own that and get to work practicing. I cut the 2.388 by just ******* it off the line and getting to WOT at about 40mph. You can see in this vid that basically just paced the Scion in the next lane until I floored it and put over 2 seconds on it down the track.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ECbbu7GuJmI
Now the car had it's own issues. I'm pretty close to maxing out the stock fuel injectors. I got my best MPH with 12.7:1, but that might have as much to do with keeping the injector duty cycle just under 90%. At 12.3:1 I was consistently in the 85%-94% range. Even still, I think I'm lucky I didn't blow anything up because at 12.7 the narrowband was showing flashes of 800mv at WOT. It normally just pegs at 900mv or so, so it was running scary lean at times.
I was also pinging all through 2nd, and more than a little bit. I'd get audible knocks, usually 4 different times, followed by very noticeable slow downs. Apparently the knock sensor also heard the knocks pretty loudly, because it pulled advance down to 10 degrees. I'd been tuning my WOT spark in 1st gear, so I hadn't seen this before. I pulled a lot of spark out, but I need to do some more work. The engine loves spark according to the butt dyno, but I need to find a happy medium.
Still, all is not lost. There was an intake, exhaust, and tire MCSS there that was running 14.4-14.6 at 96mph, so that made me feel a little better. I also had all of my work stuff in the car, my tools in the trunk, and I was running about 36psi hot. I was also thoroughly heat soaked. On my best run I was seeing IATs of 147F at launch, and 121F at the traps. The IAT advance adjustment might have been why I wasn't seeing knock in first, but I just hadn't seen anything like this on the street. Combine that with coolant temperatures of 204F and transmission temps of 220F.
Another cool thing is that I was seeing 97kPa at WOT from the MAP and 100-101kPa when sitting with the engine off. So, I don't think the intake tract (TB, MAF, etc.) is over restrictive.
Anyway, I could ramble on but I really just need to get to a dyno.
Here's me staring at my lapper in frustration:
In the staging lanes:
Under the hood:
Crossover Pics:
And finally, here's me starting and reving with the stock catback:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O7zXcdaldq4
In conclusion, I've still have a lot of work to do to get it to run well at the track, but it's still way fun to drive to and from work. For just passing, 2nd gear really does plant my head just like 1st gear used to. So, I'd do it all over again, and I can't wait to find the time and $$$ to take the next steps.
I had a hell of a time getting the car to launch well. I alternated bogging with burning up the tires. I haven't really practiced much since the cam swap since I've been mostly tuning it and just driving to and from work. My 60' times were in the 2.6-2.7 range for most of the runs. So I've got to own that and get to work practicing. I cut the 2.388 by just ******* it off the line and getting to WOT at about 40mph. You can see in this vid that basically just paced the Scion in the next lane until I floored it and put over 2 seconds on it down the track.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ECbbu7GuJmI
Now the car had it's own issues. I'm pretty close to maxing out the stock fuel injectors. I got my best MPH with 12.7:1, but that might have as much to do with keeping the injector duty cycle just under 90%. At 12.3:1 I was consistently in the 85%-94% range. Even still, I think I'm lucky I didn't blow anything up because at 12.7 the narrowband was showing flashes of 800mv at WOT. It normally just pegs at 900mv or so, so it was running scary lean at times.
I was also pinging all through 2nd, and more than a little bit. I'd get audible knocks, usually 4 different times, followed by very noticeable slow downs. Apparently the knock sensor also heard the knocks pretty loudly, because it pulled advance down to 10 degrees. I'd been tuning my WOT spark in 1st gear, so I hadn't seen this before. I pulled a lot of spark out, but I need to do some more work. The engine loves spark according to the butt dyno, but I need to find a happy medium.
Still, all is not lost. There was an intake, exhaust, and tire MCSS there that was running 14.4-14.6 at 96mph, so that made me feel a little better. I also had all of my work stuff in the car, my tools in the trunk, and I was running about 36psi hot. I was also thoroughly heat soaked. On my best run I was seeing IATs of 147F at launch, and 121F at the traps. The IAT advance adjustment might have been why I wasn't seeing knock in first, but I just hadn't seen anything like this on the street. Combine that with coolant temperatures of 204F and transmission temps of 220F.
Another cool thing is that I was seeing 97kPa at WOT from the MAP and 100-101kPa when sitting with the engine off. So, I don't think the intake tract (TB, MAF, etc.) is over restrictive.
Anyway, I could ramble on but I really just need to get to a dyno.
Here's me staring at my lapper in frustration:
In the staging lanes:
Under the hood:
Crossover Pics:
And finally, here's me starting and reving with the stock catback:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O7zXcdaldq4
In conclusion, I've still have a lot of work to do to get it to run well at the track, but it's still way fun to drive to and from work. For just passing, 2nd gear really does plant my head just like 1st gear used to. So, I'd do it all over again, and I can't wait to find the time and $$$ to take the next steps.
06-17-2010, 05:27 PM
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Great post! Keep at it because a lot of us are looking at getting that camshaft.
One unrelated question: Is there some way to get the engine cover on with the LS6 intake manifold?
EDIT: Nice clean-looking cross over pipe! We should really get Doug Thorley to fix that crossover pipe.
One unrelated question: Is there some way to get the engine cover on with the LS6 intake manifold?
EDIT: Nice clean-looking cross over pipe! We should really get Doug Thorley to fix that crossover pipe.
