'Catch-All' thread for LS4 upgrades?
10-10-2014, 09:21 AM
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'Catch-All' thread for LS4 upgrades? hi all; a newbie to be sure, but an enthusiast as well. I am just starting to work on an LS4/F40 swap into a fiero, and started with my 'dinosaur' knowledge of the good 'ole SBC when I first considered this. I mean, how different could the LSx family be from that earlier generation? 
Well.... did I ever have a lot to learn!
I have spend a ton of time over the past 2 wks just gathering info from this and many other forums, PM's, emails and so on to see just what the LS4 (specifically) is all about.
I now have a comfort level and have decided to go ahead with this adventure, but it occurred to me that it might be an idea to have (at least some) info in one place, so that newbies like me and people just considering the LS4 (and they seem to be popping up constantly) can read 'most' of what they might want to know without having to go thru all the sidebar communications that I did.
So I have been putting together a list of info items and am sorting it so that it is some sort of logical order, and would then put my observations with each. It skips entirely things like body-related, handling, specific problems with 'cars'... instead it would focus entirely on the engine itself. What works, can swap-in, and what doesn't.
So that is my proposal; thoughts and comments welcome of course. If we (it WOULD be a joint effort!) do this, it would be edited and updated constantly as facts and corrections come in.
So LMK your thoughts and I will start laying this out in the meantime. If it exists elsewhere (I haven't found it!) LMK and I'll just quietly go away!
GP
Edit: perhaps the title is misleading; it should really be something like: "Understanding the LS4 - a Primer". Possible upgrades and swaps with other LSx engines would be included.
Well.... did I ever have a lot to learn!
I have spend a ton of time over the past 2 wks just gathering info from this and many other forums, PM's, emails and so on to see just what the LS4 (specifically) is all about.
I now have a comfort level and have decided to go ahead with this adventure, but it occurred to me that it might be an idea to have (at least some) info in one place, so that newbies like me and people just considering the LS4 (and they seem to be popping up constantly) can read 'most' of what they might want to know without having to go thru all the sidebar communications that I did.
So I have been putting together a list of info items and am sorting it so that it is some sort of logical order, and would then put my observations with each. It skips entirely things like body-related, handling, specific problems with 'cars'... instead it would focus entirely on the engine itself. What works, can swap-in, and what doesn't.
So that is my proposal; thoughts and comments welcome of course. If we (it WOULD be a joint effort!) do this, it would be edited and updated constantly as facts and corrections come in.
So LMK your thoughts and I will start laying this out in the meantime. If it exists elsewhere (I haven't found it!) LMK and I'll just quietly go away!
GP
Edit: perhaps the title is misleading; it should really be something like: "Understanding the LS4 - a Primer". Possible upgrades and swaps with other LSx engines would be included.
Last edited by 85-308; 10-10-2014 at 09:54 AM.
10-10-2014, 10:14 PM
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Im sure by now you have been in contact with Fieroguru, he is by far the man when it come to these swaps. As well as Fieroking and a few others can get you about any answer you need. These kind of swaps is really about just getting in there and getting it done.
I swapped a LS4 drivetrain into my stretched Fiero based Lambo Diablo Roadster kit car 2 years ago and finshed installing a turbo onit about a month ago. I did things a little different than most on the engine management, I used a Microsquirt and a MagnaShift stand alone controller for the 4t65ehd. Im completly thrilled with those choices, they have really made my setup really affordable and flexable.
Only advice I can give you is invest some into upgrades for the transmission, as with all of the transverse swaps the trans is the weak link....
I swapped a LS4 drivetrain into my stretched Fiero based Lambo Diablo Roadster kit car 2 years ago and finshed installing a turbo onit about a month ago. I did things a little different than most on the engine management, I used a Microsquirt and a MagnaShift stand alone controller for the 4t65ehd. Im completly thrilled with those choices, they have really made my setup really affordable and flexable.
Only advice I can give you is invest some into upgrades for the transmission, as with all of the transverse swaps the trans is the weak link....
10-12-2014, 09:47 AM
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Yup I did and got quick and useful replies; but that is part of the background to the question: If we had all this info (ie a lot of 'general' background) on the the LS4 itself, not just the swap-related info, in one place, it might save guys like that some time telling people the same thing over and over.
I likely should have posed this question to newbies visiting the forum, to see if they had the same experience as me; spending a week or more going to numerous different forums and a TON of threads sorthing thru and reading till I found the one item I was after.
I think I am going to go ahead and start one. Gotta get all my paperwork together first!
At worst, it will get ignored!
I likely should have posed this question to newbies visiting the forum, to see if they had the same experience as me; spending a week or more going to numerous different forums and a TON of threads sorthing thru and reading till I found the one item I was after.
I think I am going to go ahead and start one. Gotta get all my paperwork together first!
At worst, it will get ignored!
10-12-2014, 11:15 AM
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yes; I have; unless I missed something number seemed to have to do with suspension/chassis and transmission. There is the LS1/6 swap which was of most interest to me and closest to what I am suggesting.
I think a lot of what is on my mind is 'taken for granted' by veterans of the LS4 engine; they simply know what works etc and those details that are peculiar to this engine all by itself. Those are the things that were early hangups for me; finding out what I could and couldn't do, use, obtain, etc.
I think a lot of what is on my mind is 'taken for granted' by veterans of the LS4 engine; they simply know what works etc and those details that are peculiar to this engine all by itself. Those are the things that were early hangups for me; finding out what I could and couldn't do, use, obtain, etc.
10-12-2014, 11:57 AM
#6
The majority of the info you might be seeking is just general GM LS 5.3 stuff in regards to heads, cam and intakes. I just rcently dove into trying to oil pan swap, but thats a no go with the 4T65 trans attached.
What stuff in general are you wanting to know more of that we can help with?
What stuff in general are you wanting to know more of that we can help with?
10-15-2014, 11:40 AM
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The majority of the info you might be seeking is just general GM LS 5.3 stuff in regards to heads, cam and intakes. I just rcently dove into trying to oil pan swap, but thats a no go with the 4T65 trans attached.
What stuff in general are you wanting to know more of that we can help with?
What stuff in general are you wanting to know more of that we can help with?
What I found - or rather, couldn't find - was one or maybe two places to get specifics on the LS4, just so I could make a decision on whether to pursue it or not for my purposes. I went thru quite a number of forums, following links and search phrases etc, till I got all the info I wanted/needed. Maybe I'm being overly cautious in my approach, but I don't want to waste $500 - $1000, garage space and most importantly, time (like a year?) chasing a project direction that ultimately won't work or isn't what I wanted.
Very simple example:
I have in my garage a brand new 60*V6 LZ9 3900 that I was going to turbo.
Only after a lot of searching did I find out that this particular member of the family is almost absent in aftermarket representation (who knew!?!?) and that the cam can only be replaced (I'm making a long story short here) if I go back to a 'simple' 60*V6 cam and dumb-down my PCM to OBDI. I didn't want to go that way.
A cam was vital to my goals, so now that motor is up for sale and it will shoot most of a year in the changeover.
The LS4 is not nearly so bad but it does have certain limits, I find. Those are the kind of items I am thinking would be beneficial to a new LSx prospect.
I already forget a number of the issues that I had to track, but it took me a lot of time over about 10 days/2 wks to finally satisfy myself on what was and was not possible/available/affordable etc.
Hope that answers your question in some way; in your position, with your background, you likely have a lot of this 'off the top of your head' and so it might not seem like an important issue, it is just what I encountered when I started to explore the LS4 for my uses.
That clear as mud?
GP
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10-15-2014, 06:10 PM
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A dedicated thread to everything and anything about LS4 modifications would be great.
I know that when I make any engine modifications (intake, roller rockers, camshaft, headers, etc.), I'll have to go back and search through most of the stuff I have already read.
10-15-2014, 08:49 PM
#9
I agree with this statement. Not necessarily directed toward 91parkave but with respect to most of us on here.
A dedicated thread to everything and anything about LS4 modifications would be great.
I know that when I make any engine modifications (intake, roller rockers, camshaft, headers, etc.), I'll have to go back and search through most of the stuff I have already read.
A dedicated thread to everything and anything about LS4 modifications would be great.
I know that when I make any engine modifications (intake, roller rockers, camshaft, headers, etc.), I'll have to go back and search through most of the stuff I have already read.
10-16-2014, 05:47 AM
#10
A single thread with all available information on LS4 upgrades would be 40+ pages long and very few people would ever take the time to read it. Just my opinion...
Just look at the intake manifold sticky... By the time you cover the LS1, LS6, LS2, the two FAST intake swaps, truck intake swaps (1 has been done), leave space for the ones that have not been done, the various injector solutions, various TB solutions, how to deal with the OPSU, etc... with detailed step by step information for all options, the thread becomes quite large and somewhat difficult to find information in. It can also be confusing to jump back and forth between the options as the needed work/parts are not always the same.
The other issue is things evolve. There was a time (and many posts here) about how a LS2 TB would not work with the LS4 electronics... but that changed a couple years ago. So whatever master list of the details on upgrades needs to be revisable as new solutions come about.
Another issue is pictures... over time depending on who posts them and in what manner, they my disappear after 1 month, 1 year, 1 decade...
What would be better is breaking out subsections and having a dedicate thread to each that is just the details for that subsection w/o a lot of posts/distractions from others.
Then each of these subsection threads could be linked in a single master thread that is the table of contents with links to all the subsections. Kinda like what they did in the tuning section.
Just look at the intake manifold sticky... By the time you cover the LS1, LS6, LS2, the two FAST intake swaps, truck intake swaps (1 has been done), leave space for the ones that have not been done, the various injector solutions, various TB solutions, how to deal with the OPSU, etc... with detailed step by step information for all options, the thread becomes quite large and somewhat difficult to find information in. It can also be confusing to jump back and forth between the options as the needed work/parts are not always the same.
The other issue is things evolve. There was a time (and many posts here) about how a LS2 TB would not work with the LS4 electronics... but that changed a couple years ago. So whatever master list of the details on upgrades needs to be revisable as new solutions come about.
Another issue is pictures... over time depending on who posts them and in what manner, they my disappear after 1 month, 1 year, 1 decade...
What would be better is breaking out subsections and having a dedicate thread to each that is just the details for that subsection w/o a lot of posts/distractions from others.
Then each of these subsection threads could be linked in a single master thread that is the table of contents with links to all the subsections. Kinda like what they did in the tuning section.
10-16-2014, 12:45 PM
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Apologies on the title; it is not a good reflection of what I want to do. As I noted a bit later, it should be something like "The LS4 - A Primer" or something like that.
That being said, I was thinking of a bit less detail, and wherever possible, broad, sweeping statements;
as a really, really, rough example (dont' jump on me, I don't have all the facts yet!
) .. and bearing in mind it is for someone who is thinking about the LS4 or simply interested in reading a bit about it...
"...The 'current version' of the LS4 was produced from xxxx to xxxx. It is considered to be a Gen IV engine by GM. It is available in the Impala SS, Pontiac GTO and xxx. It is specifically designed to be 'shorter' to fit the transverse engine arrangement. It is a drive-by-wire engine with Displacement on Demand (DoD).
It shares its block architecture with the LSx from xxxx to xxxx, the LSy from xxxx to xxxx and the LSz from xxxx to xxxx.
Because of this, it can directly swap heads, intake manifolds and throttle bodies with any of these engines. Because it is made for transverse mounting, it cannot swap oil pans, crankshafts or accessory drives on the front of the engine, with the rest of the LS family. It has a unique water pump for the same reason.
It can, however, share rods and/or pistons (altho compression ratios and deck clearances, etc need to be checked) with the 4.8, other 5.3's or the xxxx. Threads in this forum discuss these options.
Internal: the LS4 from xxxx to xxxx is a DoD engine; and the cam in these is a single bolt, with a 4 reluctor pattern timing gear. There is quite limited aftermarket support for this type of engine/operation. The DoD feature is more detailed in threads in this forum. It can be defeated by replacing the special lifters for cylinders No 2, 4, 6 and 8 with conventional ones. Defeating the DoD would allow use of the broad range of 3-bolt LSx camshafts with a 3 bolt, 4 reluctor timing set.
The relatively small bore precludes the use of very large valves; they would strike the edge of the cylinder. Regardless, common upgrades with a more aggressive cam, (often the popular) LS6 intake, larger throttle body and better exhaust - all to help it breath better - have produced upwards of 375 WHP in members' cars....."
Anyway, hopefully you get the idea....This is the sort of level of detail, or lack thereof, that I would go to.. sort of all-encompassing statements rather than really precise info that is covered elsewhere.
thoughts welcome and yes I am sure some of my above statements are in need of 'adjustment'!
That being said, I was thinking of a bit less detail, and wherever possible, broad, sweeping statements;
as a really, really, rough example (dont' jump on me, I don't have all the facts yet!
) .. and bearing in mind it is for someone who is thinking about the LS4 or simply interested in reading a bit about it..."...The 'current version' of the LS4 was produced from xxxx to xxxx. It is considered to be a Gen IV engine by GM. It is available in the Impala SS, Pontiac GTO and xxx. It is specifically designed to be 'shorter' to fit the transverse engine arrangement. It is a drive-by-wire engine with Displacement on Demand (DoD).
It shares its block architecture with the LSx from xxxx to xxxx, the LSy from xxxx to xxxx and the LSz from xxxx to xxxx.
Because of this, it can directly swap heads, intake manifolds and throttle bodies with any of these engines. Because it is made for transverse mounting, it cannot swap oil pans, crankshafts or accessory drives on the front of the engine, with the rest of the LS family. It has a unique water pump for the same reason.
It can, however, share rods and/or pistons (altho compression ratios and deck clearances, etc need to be checked) with the 4.8, other 5.3's or the xxxx. Threads in this forum discuss these options.
Internal: the LS4 from xxxx to xxxx is a DoD engine; and the cam in these is a single bolt, with a 4 reluctor pattern timing gear. There is quite limited aftermarket support for this type of engine/operation. The DoD feature is more detailed in threads in this forum. It can be defeated by replacing the special lifters for cylinders No 2, 4, 6 and 8 with conventional ones. Defeating the DoD would allow use of the broad range of 3-bolt LSx camshafts with a 3 bolt, 4 reluctor timing set.
The relatively small bore precludes the use of very large valves; they would strike the edge of the cylinder. Regardless, common upgrades with a more aggressive cam, (often the popular) LS6 intake, larger throttle body and better exhaust - all to help it breath better - have produced upwards of 375 WHP in members' cars....."
Anyway, hopefully you get the idea....This is the sort of level of detail, or lack thereof, that I would go to.. sort of all-encompassing statements rather than really precise info that is covered elsewhere.
thoughts welcome and yes I am sure some of my above statements are in need of 'adjustment'!
Last edited by 85-308; 10-16-2014 at 01:09 PM.
10-24-2014, 09:05 AM
#12
Apologies on the title; it is not a good reflection of what I want to do. As I noted a bit later, it should be something like "The LS4 - A Primer" or something like that.
That being said, I was thinking of a bit less detail, and wherever possible, broad, sweeping statements;
as a really, really, rough example (dont' jump on me, I don't have all the facts yet!) .. and bearing in mind it is for someone who is thinking about the LS4 or simply interested in reading a bit about it...
"...The 'current version' of the LS4 was produced from xxxx to xxxx. It is considered to be a Gen IV engine by GM. It is available in the Impala SS, Pontiac GTO and xxx. It is specifically designed to be 'shorter' ONLY the crankshaft ends are machined to be shorter to fit the transverse engine arrangement. It is a drive-by-wire engine with Displacement on Demand (DoD). 05 &06, the 07-09 are AFM
It shares its block architecture with the LSx from xxxx to xxxx, the LSy from xxxx to xxxx and the LSz from xxxx to xxxx.
Because of this, it can directly swap small valve heads, intake manifolds matching heads/ports and throttle bodies with any of these engines. Because it is made for transverse mounting, it cannot it can but there may be modification required to accommodate the installation swap oil pans, crankshafts or accessory drives on the front of the engine, with the rest of the LS family. It has a unique water pump for the same reason.
It can, however, share rods and/or pistons (altho compression ratios and deck clearances, etc need to be checked) with the 4.8, other 5.3's or the xxxx. Threads in this forum discuss these options.
Internal: the LS4 from xxxx to xxxx is a DoD engine; and the cam in these is a single bolt,58x reluctor on the AFM engines with a 24x reluctor and a 3bolt 4 reluctor pattern timing gear. There is quite limited aftermarket support for this type of engine/operation. The DoD feature is more detailed in threads in this forum. It can be defeated by replacing the special lifters and lifter buckets for cylinders No 1,3,5,7 2, 4, 6 and 8 with conventional ones. Defeating the DoD would allow use of the broad range of 3-bolt LSx camshafts with a 3 bolt, 24x reluctor timing set.or single bolt and24x or 58x reluctor as required by your ECM. ALSO TAKE NOTE THE DOD/AFM MUST BE DISABLED IN THE ECM
The relatively small bore precludes the use of very large valves; they would strike the edge of the cylinder. Regardless, common upgrades with a more aggressive cam, (often the popular) LS6 intake, larger throttle body and better exhaust - all to help it breath better - have produced upwards of 375 WHP in members' cars....."
Anyway, hopefully you get the idea....This is the sort of level of detail, or lack thereof, that I would go to.. sort of all-encompassing statements rather than really precise info that is covered elsewhere.
thoughts welcome and yes I am sure some of my above statements are in need of 'adjustment'!
That being said, I was thinking of a bit less detail, and wherever possible, broad, sweeping statements;
as a really, really, rough example (dont' jump on me, I don't have all the facts yet!
) .. and bearing in mind it is for someone who is thinking about the LS4 or simply interested in reading a bit about it..."...The 'current version' of the LS4 was produced from xxxx to xxxx. It is considered to be a Gen IV engine by GM. It is available in the Impala SS, Pontiac GTO and xxx. It is specifically designed to be 'shorter' ONLY the crankshaft ends are machined to be shorter to fit the transverse engine arrangement. It is a drive-by-wire engine with Displacement on Demand (DoD). 05 &06, the 07-09 are AFM
It shares its block architecture with the LSx from xxxx to xxxx, the LSy from xxxx to xxxx and the LSz from xxxx to xxxx.
Because of this, it can directly swap small valve heads, intake manifolds matching heads/ports and throttle bodies with any of these engines. Because it is made for transverse mounting, it cannot it can but there may be modification required to accommodate the installation swap oil pans, crankshafts or accessory drives on the front of the engine, with the rest of the LS family. It has a unique water pump for the same reason.
It can, however, share rods and/or pistons (altho compression ratios and deck clearances, etc need to be checked) with the 4.8, other 5.3's or the xxxx. Threads in this forum discuss these options.
Internal: the LS4 from xxxx to xxxx is a DoD engine; and the cam in these is a single bolt,58x reluctor on the AFM engines with a 24x reluctor and a 3bolt 4 reluctor pattern timing gear. There is quite limited aftermarket support for this type of engine/operation. The DoD feature is more detailed in threads in this forum. It can be defeated by replacing the special lifters and lifter buckets for cylinders No 1,3,5,7 2, 4, 6 and 8 with conventional ones. Defeating the DoD would allow use of the broad range of 3-bolt LSx camshafts with a 3 bolt, 24x reluctor timing set.or single bolt and24x or 58x reluctor as required by your ECM. ALSO TAKE NOTE THE DOD/AFM MUST BE DISABLED IN THE ECM
The relatively small bore precludes the use of very large valves; they would strike the edge of the cylinder. Regardless, common upgrades with a more aggressive cam, (often the popular) LS6 intake, larger throttle body and better exhaust - all to help it breath better - have produced upwards of 375 WHP in members' cars....."
Anyway, hopefully you get the idea....This is the sort of level of detail, or lack thereof, that I would go to.. sort of all-encompassing statements rather than really precise info that is covered elsewhere.
thoughts welcome and yes I am sure some of my above statements are in need of 'adjustment'!
Not intended to jump on anyone. Facts are facts