built lt1 oil pump choice?
01-24-2014, 08:42 PM
#1
Staging Lane
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built lt1 oil pump choice? What do you guys recommend for a fairly heavy breathing Lt for oil pumps and pans? Stock or HV pumps brands etc. What have you guys had good luck with. Also just bought some lunati lifters. Part # 72430. Will be ordering the 24x engine parts this week as well
01-24-2014, 09:01 PM
#2
Please do not put a damn HV pump in it! There is no up side to keeping the valve covers full.
I like Moroso's std "blue printed" oil pump.
Personally, I use a reduced volume pump. ***-backwards from an HV. I'm only at 600 fwhp, but I have plenty of pump.
Simple deal is the blue printed Moroso pump. I use their pan too. Call Moroso about the correct part number. Mine is different because I no longer have a one piece rear main seal. Don't call a catalog sales guy, call Moroso for the part numbers. Then order from Jegs, or whoever.
It has a full length kick out & scraper. That pan is worth some power over the road race looking pan that is so popular here.
I like Moroso's std "blue printed" oil pump.
Personally, I use a reduced volume pump. ***-backwards from an HV. I'm only at 600 fwhp, but I have plenty of pump.
Simple deal is the blue printed Moroso pump. I use their pan too. Call Moroso about the correct part number. Mine is different because I no longer have a one piece rear main seal. Don't call a catalog sales guy, call Moroso for the part numbers. Then order from Jegs, or whoever.
It has a full length kick out & scraper. That pan is worth some power over the road race looking pan that is so popular here.
01-24-2014, 10:03 PM
#3
Staging Lane
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Please do not put a damn HV pump in it! There is no up side to keeping the valve covers full.
I like Moroso's std "blue printed" oil pump.
Personally, I use a reduced volume pump. ***-backwards from an HV. I'm only at 600 fwhp, but I have plenty of pump.
Simple deal is the blue printed Moroso pump. I use their pan too. Call Moroso about the correct part number. Mine is different because I no longer have a one piece rear main seal. Don't call a catalog sales guy, call Moroso for the part numbers. Then order from Jegs, or whoever.
It has a full length kick out & scraper. That pan is worth some power over the road race looking pan that is so popular here.
I like Moroso's std "blue printed" oil pump.
Personally, I use a reduced volume pump. ***-backwards from an HV. I'm only at 600 fwhp, but I have plenty of pump.
Simple deal is the blue printed Moroso pump. I use their pan too. Call Moroso about the correct part number. Mine is different because I no longer have a one piece rear main seal. Don't call a catalog sales guy, call Moroso for the part numbers. Then order from Jegs, or whoever.
It has a full length kick out & scraper. That pan is worth some power over the road race looking pan that is so popular here.
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01-25-2014, 07:37 AM
#8
Oil pumps move more oil volume with more rpm, high rpm engines try and move so much volume they just go into bypass as Ed said without explaining, HV at high rpm can also go a step worse and besides being undo wear on the drive and HP consumption they can cavitate actually hurting oil flow quality to the bearings.
A Melling blueprint is a good choice for most builds but that said the stock pump is Melling and pretty darn good itself.
I think folks are too quick to worry about pan "upgrades" too, at 7500rpm+ like Ed turns his I am sure there is power in a pan designed for such, for the average street build I suspect the extra $300 would be better spent on the topend since most folks want to cheapout on that most critical part of the build.
A Melling blueprint is a good choice for most builds but that said the stock pump is Melling and pretty darn good itself.
I think folks are too quick to worry about pan "upgrades" too, at 7500rpm+ like Ed turns his I am sure there is power in a pan designed for such, for the average street build I suspect the extra $300 would be better spent on the topend since most folks want to cheapout on that most critical part of the build.
01-25-2014, 08:09 AM
#9
Staging Lane
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Oil pumps move more oil volume with more rpm, high rpm engines try and move so much volume they just go into bypass as Ed said without explaining, HV at high rpm can also go a step worse and besides being undo wear on the drive and HP consumption they can cavitate actually hurting oil flow quality to the bearings.
A Melling blueprint is a good choice for most builds but that said the stock pump is Melling and pretty darn good itself.
I think folks are too quick to worry about pan "upgrades" too, at 7500rpm+ like Ed turns his I am sure there is power in a pan designed for such, for the average street build I suspect the extra $300 would be better spent on the topend since most folks want to cheapout on that most critical part of the build.
A Melling blueprint is a good choice for most builds but that said the stock pump is Melling and pretty darn good itself.
I think folks are too quick to worry about pan "upgrades" too, at 7500rpm+ like Ed turns his I am sure there is power in a pan designed for such, for the average street build I suspect the extra $300 would be better spent on the topend since most folks want to cheapout on that most critical part of the build.
01-25-2014, 01:08 PM
#11
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I've got the melling high pressure, reg. volume and I pretty much wish I just went with std. pressure and volume... Sits at about 75psi at cold idle and any rpms above idle bring it up quickly to around 90. Until oil warms up that is, hot idle it's at about 35psi (IIRC, been a few months).
01-25-2014, 01:58 PM
#13
FWIW, this link to Melling explains what HV oil pumps are
http://www.mellingselectperformance....lume-pumps.pdf
Often they are used in motors with wider than stock bearing clearances, and/or external oil coolers and/or filter. I would not use one in a motor with standard bearing clearances.
"Higher Volume" is not the same as "High Pressure" oil pumps
http://www.mellingselectperformance....lume-pumps.pdf
Often they are used in motors with wider than stock bearing clearances, and/or external oil coolers and/or filter. I would not use one in a motor with standard bearing clearances.
"Higher Volume" is not the same as "High Pressure" oil pumps
01-25-2014, 03:07 PM
#14
Wide bearing clearances are just dumb, but I guess some guys just don't know any better. Not sure what they would be trying to accomplish. One thousandths per inch crank journal diameter is commonly used. Most of my cranks use the old 283" journal sizes with spacer mains and rods made for them. Last couple have used what guys call "Honda rod bearings", which are 1.88" diameter rod journals. 283" rods are 2", versus LT1's 2.1" diameter. Newest deal is "BMW rods ", which I think are 1.78"? Not exactly sure about that number. Manley makes rods for both.
And 75 to 90 psi? Why? 60 psi is more than enough. High oil pressure is a power waster, oil temp increaser, also in a SBC a cam gear/driven gear wear inducer. GM says ten psi per 1000 RPM, and that is WAY safe & covering their asses dummy proof.
My low volume pump has the spring clipped for 45 psi. Seldom sees over 8500 RPM.
And 75 to 90 psi? Why? 60 psi is more than enough. High oil pressure is a power waster, oil temp increaser, also in a SBC a cam gear/driven gear wear inducer. GM says ten psi per 1000 RPM, and that is WAY safe & covering their asses dummy proof.
My low volume pump has the spring clipped for 45 psi. Seldom sees over 8500 RPM.
Last edited by Ed Wright; 01-25-2014 at 03:16 PM.
01-25-2014, 03:43 PM
#15
Ed
You certainly know your stuff and I am not advocating HV pumps have a universal use. With standard bearing clearances a standard pump is best. Some have swapped springs to increase pressure.
Some of the HV pumps are "standard" pressure. They just flow more "volume" of oil. My understanding is some builders use slightly wider bearing clearances and HV pumps, often with thicker oil like 10-40 or 20-50, to provide a thicker oil barrier between bearing and rod/crank. I know the Porsche 911 flat 6 spec 20-50 as factory fill due to wider clearances
Companies like Melling feel there is a need/use which is why they make them and there seem to be many aftermarket engines using them. I think “problems” like worn cam drive gears that are attributed to using a HV pump is when one was used with standard bearing clearances or cam gears that are wiped due to new cams with gears that are billet or not properly lined up with the drive gear
I have one in a 383 (builder spec the HV pump) and after 30k mi there is no wear on the stock 120k mi cam drive gear so for me at least it has not been a problem in that area. Oil pressure is 45 at idle and increases to 60 max when I hit 6k+ RPM’s. I also have an external oil cooler (air, not radiator) but had that on the car with the stock motor/pump
You certainly know your stuff and I am not advocating HV pumps have a universal use. With standard bearing clearances a standard pump is best. Some have swapped springs to increase pressure.
Some of the HV pumps are "standard" pressure. They just flow more "volume" of oil. My understanding is some builders use slightly wider bearing clearances and HV pumps, often with thicker oil like 10-40 or 20-50, to provide a thicker oil barrier between bearing and rod/crank. I know the Porsche 911 flat 6 spec 20-50 as factory fill due to wider clearances
Companies like Melling feel there is a need/use which is why they make them and there seem to be many aftermarket engines using them. I think “problems” like worn cam drive gears that are attributed to using a HV pump is when one was used with standard bearing clearances or cam gears that are wiped due to new cams with gears that are billet or not properly lined up with the drive gear
I have one in a 383 (builder spec the HV pump) and after 30k mi there is no wear on the stock 120k mi cam drive gear so for me at least it has not been a problem in that area. Oil pressure is 45 at idle and increases to 60 max when I hit 6k+ RPM’s. I also have an external oil cooler (air, not radiator) but had that on the car with the stock motor/pump
01-25-2014, 04:32 PM
#16
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75 just after start up when it is idling... Drops to 35-40ish at idle after about 10 minutes of driving conservatively. Warmed up shifting at 7k WOT it's around 70 psi. I'm not slamming through the gears redlining with cold oil at 90psi, but when the engine is still warming up and I'm cruising just shifting at about 3k the pressure gets up there... I know about the cons of too high oil pressure. I didn't think it would be so high when I was getting the pump lol... Perhaps I'll swap springs out sometime, but warm psi is great. So I don't have much concern really...
01-25-2014, 07:24 PM
#17
There is no such thing as a high volume pump that is "standard pressure".
We're talking positive displacement pumps; a high volume pump is moving more oil; if it's moving more oil through the same oil passages, the pressure at any point is higher, period!
That Melling link provided has a lot of BS in it, parts of it completely misleading, written by somebody that doesn't understand the subject. Melling should be embarrassed to have published that.
We're talking positive displacement pumps; a high volume pump is moving more oil; if it's moving more oil through the same oil passages, the pressure at any point is higher, period!
That Melling link provided has a lot of BS in it, parts of it completely misleading, written by somebody that doesn't understand the subject. Melling should be embarrassed to have published that.
01-26-2014, 11:43 AM
#19
There is no such thing as a high volume pump that is "standard pressure".
We're talking positive displacement pumps; a high volume pump is moving more oil; if it's moving more oil through the same oil passages, the pressure at any point is higher, period!
That Melling link provided has a lot of BS in it, parts of it completely misleading, written by somebody that doesn't understand the subject. Melling should be embarrassed to have published that.
We're talking positive displacement pumps; a high volume pump is moving more oil; if it's moving more oil through the same oil passages, the pressure at any point is higher, period!
That Melling link provided has a lot of BS in it, parts of it completely misleading, written by somebody that doesn't understand the subject. Melling should be embarrassed to have published that.
Al
01-26-2014, 01:15 PM
#20
What bowtienut is saying is that at a given rpm/bearing clearance a HV pump will create higher pressure. It will also simply go into bypass at a lower rpm and is more likely to cavitate, and MUCH MUCH more likely to prematurely wear out the drive. I assure you he has a much better understanding of mechanical workings than the vast majority of us.
Far as the HV needed for wide clearances, a lot of shops use wide clearances in place of build quality. The wider the average clearance the less likely sloppiness or an unmeasured clearance is to be too tight. We see this kind of thing done by shops that do halfassed things like assembling a shortblock with airtools cross threading a rod bolt etc.
I am sure there can be a reasonable argument made for loose clearances on a high hp motor, but on the normal 400-550fwhp LT1 not much reasonable argument to be made.
Far as the HV needed for wide clearances, a lot of shops use wide clearances in place of build quality. The wider the average clearance the less likely sloppiness or an unmeasured clearance is to be too tight. We see this kind of thing done by shops that do halfassed things like assembling a shortblock with airtools cross threading a rod bolt etc.
I am sure there can be a reasonable argument made for loose clearances on a high hp motor, but on the normal 400-550fwhp LT1 not much reasonable argument to be made.