Questions After Heads/Cam - Oil Pressure & Misc
07-11-2015, 06:47 PM
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Questions After Heads/Cam - Oil Pressure & Misc Hi all. I finished my heads and cam swap about two weeks ago. The car seems to be running pretty good and strong so far for as near as I can tell. Getting no checking engine lights, leaks, or major noises. It has about 150 miles on it and I am about ready to change the oil again. I have a few questions and kind of concerns, just hoping to get some opinions.
1. Oil Pressure: I am getting about 15 PSI at hot idle and a max of 40 PSI from 4,000 to 6,000 RPM. It never gets higher than 40 PSI but stays above 10 PSI per 1,000 RPM until 4,000 RPM. I am and have always run Mobil 1 10W-30. The stock oil pump is untouched. I do not remember what the oil pressure was before the swap, but it seems like the pressure might be lower now after the swap. Should I be concerned about this?
2. Faint ticking when coasting in gear and sometimes noticeable at idle. It seems like rocker noise but I am not sure. It is usually most noticeable if I deccelerate from around 3,000 to 2,000 in gear. Rockers are adjusted precisely at 1/4 turn past zero lash per instructions for my Morel 5315 lifters. The noise is pretty faint, but I do hear it. Under the hood at idle, I would say the rockers have the typical sewing machine sound.
3. Is there any way to verify that the head and intake gaskets are not leaking internally? The car does not seem to be smoking at all. Oil looks and smells good on the dipstick. I did have to top off the coolant but I have been bleeding it a bunch of times. Just wondering if there is anything I should watch for?
4. The car seems to take a while to start if it sits for about 20 or 30 min when hot. It cranks over for about 2 or 3 seconds and kind of sluggishly fires up. It fires up immediately when cold and also if I shut it off when hot and then start it back up immediately. Fuel pressure and FPR look good. Any ideas on that one?
Here is a little better idle video I did. Hope to get some action videos in the future. The garage is less of a cluster f*** now! Thanks for any input!
1. Oil Pressure: I am getting about 15 PSI at hot idle and a max of 40 PSI from 4,000 to 6,000 RPM. It never gets higher than 40 PSI but stays above 10 PSI per 1,000 RPM until 4,000 RPM. I am and have always run Mobil 1 10W-30. The stock oil pump is untouched. I do not remember what the oil pressure was before the swap, but it seems like the pressure might be lower now after the swap. Should I be concerned about this?
2. Faint ticking when coasting in gear and sometimes noticeable at idle. It seems like rocker noise but I am not sure. It is usually most noticeable if I deccelerate from around 3,000 to 2,000 in gear. Rockers are adjusted precisely at 1/4 turn past zero lash per instructions for my Morel 5315 lifters. The noise is pretty faint, but I do hear it. Under the hood at idle, I would say the rockers have the typical sewing machine sound.
3. Is there any way to verify that the head and intake gaskets are not leaking internally? The car does not seem to be smoking at all. Oil looks and smells good on the dipstick. I did have to top off the coolant but I have been bleeding it a bunch of times. Just wondering if there is anything I should watch for?
4. The car seems to take a while to start if it sits for about 20 or 30 min when hot. It cranks over for about 2 or 3 seconds and kind of sluggishly fires up. It fires up immediately when cold and also if I shut it off when hot and then start it back up immediately. Fuel pressure and FPR look good. Any ideas on that one?
Here is a little better idle video I did. Hope to get some action videos in the future. The garage is less of a cluster f*** now! Thanks for any input!
07-12-2015, 06:51 AM
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See if you can get a video of the noise. Put a mechanical gauge onto the engine to verify your oil pressure sending unit is not faulty. Has the PCM been tuned for this particular setup?
07-12-2015, 07:15 AM
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I'll see if I can get some video of the noise. It is pretty faint, so not sure if I can pick it up. I'll pick up a mechanical OP gauge too. Yes the car is running an initial tune from Solomon based on the most recent mods. I just datalogged the car yesterday and sent the files back to him. Waiting to get the first retune back. I'll probably do some more testing after that.
07-12-2015, 07:16 AM
#4
Without "before" oil pressure and with just a questionably accurate stock gauge the numbers seem slightly worrysome, I would cut open the filter ASAP along with a mechanical gauge.
M1 has never been all that great for the LT1, and at times the 10w-30 has been very thin for a 30weight oil, according to M1s own website the "Advanced Synthetic" 10w-30 has a CST@100c of 10.1 and the 5w-30 is CST@100c of 11. 30weight is a RANGE and the 10w-30 is THINNER and you are likely buying it because you think it is thicker. Not thin enough to in and of itself cause any harm, but if you are going to spend that much on oil and want a thicker oil wouldn't you want one proven to work well and find one actually towards the thicker end of the scale?
Head gaskets only see pressurized coolant, which with so few miles should be easily found in coolant if it was short trips not hot enough to evaporate the water.
An intake gasket leak can in some cases suck oily air from the lifter valley, but sees no pressurized fluids of any sort.
If you like M1 due to the Vette marketing the ESP 0w-30 actually has a CST@100c of 12.0 which is the thicker end of the scale.
ESP 5w-40 is rated at a CST of 13.4, the extended performance 0w-20 is 8.6, just so you can get an idea of the scale.
The starting thing I would suspect a tuning adjustment is needed.
M1 has never been all that great for the LT1, and at times the 10w-30 has been very thin for a 30weight oil, according to M1s own website the "Advanced Synthetic" 10w-30 has a CST@100c of 10.1 and the 5w-30 is CST@100c of 11. 30weight is a RANGE and the 10w-30 is THINNER and you are likely buying it because you think it is thicker. Not thin enough to in and of itself cause any harm, but if you are going to spend that much on oil and want a thicker oil wouldn't you want one proven to work well and find one actually towards the thicker end of the scale?
Head gaskets only see pressurized coolant, which with so few miles should be easily found in coolant if it was short trips not hot enough to evaporate the water.
An intake gasket leak can in some cases suck oily air from the lifter valley, but sees no pressurized fluids of any sort.
If you like M1 due to the Vette marketing the ESP 0w-30 actually has a CST@100c of 12.0 which is the thicker end of the scale.
ESP 5w-40 is rated at a CST of 13.4, the extended performance 0w-20 is 8.6, just so you can get an idea of the scale.
The starting thing I would suspect a tuning adjustment is needed.
Last edited by 96capricemgr; 07-12-2015 at 07:33 AM.
07-12-2015, 08:28 AM
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Head gaskets only see pressurized coolant, which with so few miles should be easily found in coolant if it was short trips not hot enough to evaporate the water.
An intake gasket leak can in some cases suck oily air from the lifter valley, but sees no pressurized fluids of any sort.
If you like M1 due to the Vette marketing the ESP 0w-30 actually has a CST@100c of 12.0 which is the thicker end of the scale.
ESP 5w-40 is rated at a CST of 13.4, the extended performance 0w-20 is 8.6, just so you can get an idea of the scale.
The starting thing I would suspect a tuning adjustment is needed.
An intake gasket leak can in some cases suck oily air from the lifter valley, but sees no pressurized fluids of any sort.
If you like M1 due to the Vette marketing the ESP 0w-30 actually has a CST@100c of 12.0 which is the thicker end of the scale.
ESP 5w-40 is rated at a CST of 13.4, the extended performance 0w-20 is 8.6, just so you can get an idea of the scale.
The starting thing I would suspect a tuning adjustment is needed.
Also do you have any recommendations on better oils for these cars. I am not partial to Mobil 1, I just always figured it was decent oil so that's what I ran. I am certainly open to whatever.
I picked up an oil filter cutter last week, so I will definitely be doing that. Hopefully I'll get the new tune back this week.
Anyone have any links on doing a mechanical oil pressure gauge? I know you can use the port by the oil filter. I am trying to keep my car looking as stock as possible so I would prefer to not permanently install the OP gauge. Any suggestions? Could I rig up something temporarily like this?
07-12-2015, 09:18 AM
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Well it looks like I followed some incorrect advice from the vendor where I bought my Morel lifters. They recommended that I set the lifters at ¼ turn past zero lash which would come out to .0125” preload with a 7/16-20 stud. I found the actual instructions from the Morel/John Callies website. http://johncalliesinc.com/pdf/Adjust...licLifters.pdf It sounds like they are calling for .030” to .035” preload with an iron block and aluminum heads which would be .60 to .70 of a turn past zero lash. I guess I will try resetting all the rockers to .030” to .035” preload and see if that helps with the noise. It really pisses me off that I blindly followed this incorrect advice without checking somewhere else in addition!! Hopefully my lifters are not screwed up.
07-12-2015, 09:39 AM
#7
Mobil 1 High Mileage 10w30 is a better variant of their oil. It carries a ACEA rating of A3/B3 which is a European standard relating to its wear prevention properties.
https://mobiloil.com/en/motor-oils/m...1-high-mileage
Scroll down and select the desired wt. for specs.
https://mobiloil.com/en/motor-oils/m...1-high-mileage
Scroll down and select the desired wt. for specs.
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07-12-2015, 09:45 AM
#8
There is no pressurized oil through the head gasket so oil wont get to coolant from there, that usually only happens in the case of a oil cooler failure and usually only the in radiator ones found on other cars, not the f-body style "cooler". Oil in coolant is easy to spot on those freak occasions it happens.
In your case with the short drives if coolant was getting to the oil I would expect condensation and maybe yellow goop in the oil fill cap, maybe milkiness to the oil, or you could even let it sit for awhile and see if you get water first when you go to drain the oil. Doesn't sound like you have any cause for concern other than having added coolant and hopefully that was just the system burping some air.
On the gauge, absolutely plumb an inexpensive gauge temporarily, many will tape them in front of the windsheild, not even run them into the car, you don't want hot pressurized fluids inside the cabin.
On oil a lot of it is personal preference which is usually dictated by marketing, realistically any API rated oil near the factory 30weight spec should work. That said LT1s have shown some preference(used oil analysis) for oils at the thicker end of the 30weight range or even low 40weight. As I looked up on Mobil's site this morning the 10w-30 is fairly thin at operating temp, either the 5w-30 or especially the 0w-30 would be thicker. The CST@100c is the viscosity at 100c-212f so is something close to operating temperature.
Thicker might quiet things down and get pressure up some. That said pressure is NOT what keeps parts off eachother, it is just something simple to measure and watch for sudden changes. Oil is used to basically hydroplane the crank/cam to keep it off the bearings so flow is what does the job. If pressuregets too low it can be a sign of too much flow across bearings and the parts at the end of the circuit might not be getting enough.
Also with considering a thicker oil don't get carried away, the pump has a relief spring that opens and sends oil back to the pickup theoretically at 60psi, heating the extra oil and not pushing it up into the engine.
If the mechanical gauge proves 40psi I might try a 5w-40.
Also if the pressure actually peaks at 40psi and stays there for 2000rpm the pump might be bypassing early due to an old spring, an 80psi spring is like $2, but you have to remove the oilpump to swap it.
You are also going to want to spin that cam to at least 6300rpm, when I had it I spun it to 6500 but I have the big 1-2 split of the A4 and had a modest 2800 stall. I also used the original lifters that were in both shortblocks I put that cam in.
In your case with the short drives if coolant was getting to the oil I would expect condensation and maybe yellow goop in the oil fill cap, maybe milkiness to the oil, or you could even let it sit for awhile and see if you get water first when you go to drain the oil. Doesn't sound like you have any cause for concern other than having added coolant and hopefully that was just the system burping some air.
On the gauge, absolutely plumb an inexpensive gauge temporarily, many will tape them in front of the windsheild, not even run them into the car, you don't want hot pressurized fluids inside the cabin.
On oil a lot of it is personal preference which is usually dictated by marketing, realistically any API rated oil near the factory 30weight spec should work. That said LT1s have shown some preference(used oil analysis) for oils at the thicker end of the 30weight range or even low 40weight. As I looked up on Mobil's site this morning the 10w-30 is fairly thin at operating temp, either the 5w-30 or especially the 0w-30 would be thicker. The CST@100c is the viscosity at 100c-212f so is something close to operating temperature.
Thicker might quiet things down and get pressure up some. That said pressure is NOT what keeps parts off eachother, it is just something simple to measure and watch for sudden changes. Oil is used to basically hydroplane the crank/cam to keep it off the bearings so flow is what does the job. If pressuregets too low it can be a sign of too much flow across bearings and the parts at the end of the circuit might not be getting enough.
Also with considering a thicker oil don't get carried away, the pump has a relief spring that opens and sends oil back to the pickup theoretically at 60psi, heating the extra oil and not pushing it up into the engine.
If the mechanical gauge proves 40psi I might try a 5w-40.
Also if the pressure actually peaks at 40psi and stays there for 2000rpm the pump might be bypassing early due to an old spring, an 80psi spring is like $2, but you have to remove the oilpump to swap it.
You are also going to want to spin that cam to at least 6300rpm, when I had it I spun it to 6500 but I have the big 1-2 split of the A4 and had a modest 2800 stall. I also used the original lifters that were in both shortblocks I put that cam in.
07-12-2015, 10:13 AM
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Cool, thanks for all the input guys. I will plan on doing the following:
1. Load updated tune.
2. Install a mechanical oil pressure gauge.
3. Figure out a different oil.
4. Readjust the rockers to .030" to .035" preload on the lifters.
The way the oil pressure seems to max at 40 PSI kind of makes me think there might be an issue with the spring. I looked at swapping it out but I had the motor in the car when I did the work and it did not sound real easy to get the pan off to get to the pump. The motor only has about 60k so I figured I would roll the dice on the original oil pump and spring. I'll see what the mechanical gauge shows and go from there.
I have the rev limiter in the tune set to 6,400. I definitely can see why you do not want to go much bigger on a cam for a stock bottom end. You can tell it has plenty left at 6,000 but I do not think I would be comfortable going past 6,400 without better rod bolts and bearings. I think it should be pretty quick shifting at 6,400 when I get everything sorted out.
1. Load updated tune.
2. Install a mechanical oil pressure gauge.
3. Figure out a different oil.
4. Readjust the rockers to .030" to .035" preload on the lifters.
The way the oil pressure seems to max at 40 PSI kind of makes me think there might be an issue with the spring. I looked at swapping it out but I had the motor in the car when I did the work and it did not sound real easy to get the pan off to get to the pump. The motor only has about 60k so I figured I would roll the dice on the original oil pump and spring. I'll see what the mechanical gauge shows and go from there.
I have the rev limiter in the tune set to 6,400. I definitely can see why you do not want to go much bigger on a cam for a stock bottom end. You can tell it has plenty left at 6,000 but I do not think I would be comfortable going past 6,400 without better rod bolts and bearings. I think it should be pretty quick shifting at 6,400 when I get everything sorted out.
07-12-2015, 10:39 AM
#10
How easy was the data logging process? I'm about to do the same with Solomon. Did you say the pressure drops at higher rpm or is it at 15 psi at idle? I was confused on your post. What type of rockers are you using. I have the ultra pro mags and they are noisy as heck compared to my gm hotcam rockers. Pre load can have a big Impact as well like you discovered.
07-12-2015, 11:45 AM
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How easy was the data logging process? I'm about to do the same with Solomon. Did you say the pressure drops at higher rpm or is it at 15 psi at idle? I was confused on your post. What type of rockers are you using. I have the ultra pro mags and they are noisy as heck compared to my gm hotcam rockers. Pre load can have a big Impact as well like you discovered.
Running ultra pro mags too.
My oil pressure does not really drop. It just seems a little lower than I remember. Getting 15 PSI at hot idle and a max hot pressure of 40 PSI.
07-12-2015, 12:07 PM
#12
The pump is usually solid, I like $10 worth of upgraded spring and a metal coupling driveshaft.
I actually like to do those to any LT1 I have the pan off, might not help anything but wont hurt and is $10 better spent than a LOT of things guys spend money on. Even did this to a wagon that had the oilpan rust to the point of leaking.....
I actually like to do those to any LT1 I have the pan off, might not help anything but wont hurt and is $10 better spent than a LOT of things guys spend money on. Even did this to a wagon that had the oilpan rust to the point of leaking.....
07-12-2015, 07:43 PM
#13
Datalogging was real easy. Just download TTS Datamaster. You get 20 free logging sessions. It looks like you can make as many recordings as you want during each session. Just follow Solomon's instructions on the logs that he wants.
Running ultra pro mags too.
My oil pressure does not really drop. It just seems a little lower than I remember. Getting 15 PSI at hot idle and a max hot pressure of 40 PSI.
Running ultra pro mags too.
My oil pressure does not really drop. It just seems a little lower than I remember. Getting 15 PSI at hot idle and a max hot pressure of 40 PSI.
07-18-2015, 05:54 PM
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So I managed to get some more work done on the car today.
I got the rockers adjusted to manufacturer's spec of .030" to .035" preload (I went about .67 of a turn, 4 flats, or .033"). Everything on the top end looked in good shape and all of the rockers seem to be getting oil.
I am going to try switching to Mobil 10W-30 High Mileage to see if that helps out the oil pressure a little. It looks like it is a little thicker (12 cSt) and has better anti-wear properties.
I still need to get the updated tune loaded. I bricked my PCM loading the tune last time so I am waiting for a replacement PCM to show up. Solomon did say it was running rich on the first tune based on the datalogs I sent him.
I did drain the oil out.The oil was pretty black. I drained the very first bit of oil into a clear plastic cup. It did not have any water sitting in the bottom of the pan. (The car sat for a week without running.) The oil seemed to resemble the consistency of oil. It did not have a gasoline smell to it.
I also cut the oil filter open with an oil filter cutter. This was my first time doing this, but it seemed like the was quite a bit of gunk in the oil filter. The one side of the pleats literally looked like I wiped them on my garage floor. A lot of it looked like old gasket material. I did see a few tiny pieces of aluminum. This was probably due to some intake threads I had to clean up in the heads while after they were on the car. I was actually surprised on how much stuff was in the filter since I thought I did a pretty good job of keeping debris from falling into the motor while cleaning the gaskets surfaces. I guess this is a good argument for just pulling the motor if you are going to have the heads off. It is impossible to keep things 100% clean with the motor in the car.
I did take a magnet and run it very close to the gunk in the pleats. I did not get much but I did pull out some very fine magnetic particles from a few of the pleats. Most of the pleats were free of magnetic material.
I am guessing the black oil is due to all of the contamination that was in the motor. Just wondering if you guys could provide any feedback on what you have seen in your oil filters after doing a top end rebuild? Should I be concerned at this point about seeing a very small amount of magnetic material in the filter? Thanks for any input!
I got the rockers adjusted to manufacturer's spec of .030" to .035" preload (I went about .67 of a turn, 4 flats, or .033"). Everything on the top end looked in good shape and all of the rockers seem to be getting oil.
I am going to try switching to Mobil 10W-30 High Mileage to see if that helps out the oil pressure a little. It looks like it is a little thicker (12 cSt) and has better anti-wear properties.
I still need to get the updated tune loaded. I bricked my PCM loading the tune last time so I am waiting for a replacement PCM to show up. Solomon did say it was running rich on the first tune based on the datalogs I sent him.
I did drain the oil out.The oil was pretty black. I drained the very first bit of oil into a clear plastic cup. It did not have any water sitting in the bottom of the pan. (The car sat for a week without running.) The oil seemed to resemble the consistency of oil. It did not have a gasoline smell to it.
I also cut the oil filter open with an oil filter cutter. This was my first time doing this, but it seemed like the was quite a bit of gunk in the oil filter. The one side of the pleats literally looked like I wiped them on my garage floor. A lot of it looked like old gasket material. I did see a few tiny pieces of aluminum. This was probably due to some intake threads I had to clean up in the heads while after they were on the car. I was actually surprised on how much stuff was in the filter since I thought I did a pretty good job of keeping debris from falling into the motor while cleaning the gaskets surfaces. I guess this is a good argument for just pulling the motor if you are going to have the heads off. It is impossible to keep things 100% clean with the motor in the car.
I did take a magnet and run it very close to the gunk in the pleats. I did not get much but I did pull out some very fine magnetic particles from a few of the pleats. Most of the pleats were free of magnetic material.
I am guessing the black oil is due to all of the contamination that was in the motor. Just wondering if you guys could provide any feedback on what you have seen in your oil filters after doing a top end rebuild? Should I be concerned at this point about seeing a very small amount of magnetic material in the filter? Thanks for any input!
07-18-2015, 09:20 PM
#15
I did a cam and rocker change and I always cut the oil filter open as I only manage one oil change per year at the low miles I rack up. IMO it's normal to see some small particles both magnetic and non-magnetic in some pleats as you found. As you run the engine more and have additional oil and filter changes the debris from the work done and break in should diminish. I am wondering about the large amount of "gunk" you found in the filter. Is this a used engine or did it sit for a long time open to the elements? Because that kind of debris is definitely not normal and could be contributing to your oil press issue.
07-19-2015, 08:37 AM
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I'll probably give it another oil change after a few hundred miles to see how it looks again. I do not think there is much more I can do at this point anyways.
07-19-2015, 04:55 PM
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Just thought I would post a couple pics of what the oil and filter looked like after about 150 miles FWIW.
There were no noticeable particles in the oil that drained out of the motor. I even chased it with about a quart of clean stuff. So it looks like the filter was doing it's job. I just had an ACDeclo on there for the initial testing. Switched over to a regular Wix now.
Car is filled up with new oil and filter. I also got my mechanical gauge set up with some copper line.
Hopefully I can get the new tune loaded without bricking my new PCM this week and do some more testing.
There were no noticeable particles in the oil that drained out of the motor. I even chased it with about a quart of clean stuff. So it looks like the filter was doing it's job. I just had an ACDeclo on there for the initial testing. Switched over to a regular Wix now.
Car is filled up with new oil and filter. I also got my mechanical gauge set up with some copper line.
Hopefully I can get the new tune loaded without bricking my new PCM this week and do some more testing.