AFR LT 210 heads on a stock-displacement street car?
10-12-2015, 05:09 AM
#1
AFR LT 210 heads on a stock-displacement street car? I got a great deal on a set of AFR 210cc LT heads. Now I'm wondering if I should put them on my 94 M6 DD that has a baby cam (220/230 @ 0.050). If I did this, I would ultimately look at installing a bigger cam, but I can't go too big and still pass CA smog.
I've been told these are really race heads, they would kill my bottom end, and I'd be unhappy with them on the street. The car is a daily driver, but I don't mind if it's a little softer on the bottom end.
Other mods on the car include Hooker mid-length 1.75-inch headers, Borla cat-back, ported intake/BBK 58mm TB.
What do you think?
I've been told these are really race heads, they would kill my bottom end, and I'd be unhappy with them on the street. The car is a daily driver, but I don't mind if it's a little softer on the bottom end.
Other mods on the car include Hooker mid-length 1.75-inch headers, Borla cat-back, ported intake/BBK 58mm TB.
What do you think?
10-12-2015, 10:15 AM
#2
Install 'em and get it tuned for 'em.
Which for your LT purposes is the trick. Meaning that you'll need to send your PCM off to a competent tuner... . And your DD is going to be down for 4-5 days.
You can also buy a spare PCM, send that to the tuner... have them ship it to ya... before ya install the heads... so you'll have it on hand when time comes.
There's a number of 'em. The guy I used was Moe Bailey, out of Texas.
Before him, PCM-for-Less. But, there's a couple of guys there... one is the best in the LT1 biz... IRRC, his name is Brian. The other ... not so much. My first tune from them was perfect (for me) the first time.
The second time... it worked but not near as good. Communication was so-so... and for me that's a deal breaker.
It's hard to get Brian on the phone... so I started using Moe.
I tried another guy once, before Moe, on a friends 3rd Gen... 'solomon', IRRC... my experience was awful with that guy, but others claim he hung the moon. Again... his communication was not good at all and the program failed. So... there ya go.
Moe's a good man, been doing it forever, answers his phone... although he's analogue, so his email com, has patches of delay.
moehorsepower@peoplePC.com 254-644-2656
Another resource and in my book, for LT1 issues, he's the bottom line.
Lloyd Elliot: Elliot Port Works.
He's a Builder/Porter and not a programmer, but I was in your shoes a couple of years back and he's the guy I called and whenever I have a serious question, he's the guy I call. He answers the phone and his com is EXCELLENT! You cannot find a nicer, more knowledgable guy who will be more than happy to talk to you... even tho' you're not an immediate prospect for business. I spoke to him several times over the years, before I actually did business with him. Great guy... .
Lloyd Elliiot, 972-617-5671
Which for your LT purposes is the trick. Meaning that you'll need to send your PCM off to a competent tuner... . And your DD is going to be down for 4-5 days.
You can also buy a spare PCM, send that to the tuner... have them ship it to ya... before ya install the heads... so you'll have it on hand when time comes.
There's a number of 'em. The guy I used was Moe Bailey, out of Texas.
Before him, PCM-for-Less. But, there's a couple of guys there... one is the best in the LT1 biz... IRRC, his name is Brian. The other ... not so much. My first tune from them was perfect (for me) the first time.
The second time... it worked but not near as good. Communication was so-so... and for me that's a deal breaker.
It's hard to get Brian on the phone... so I started using Moe.
I tried another guy once, before Moe, on a friends 3rd Gen... 'solomon', IRRC... my experience was awful with that guy, but others claim he hung the moon. Again... his communication was not good at all and the program failed. So... there ya go.
Moe's a good man, been doing it forever, answers his phone... although he's analogue, so his email com, has patches of delay.
moehorsepower@peoplePC.com 254-644-2656
Another resource and in my book, for LT1 issues, he's the bottom line.
Lloyd Elliot: Elliot Port Works.
He's a Builder/Porter and not a programmer, but I was in your shoes a couple of years back and he's the guy I called and whenever I have a serious question, he's the guy I call. He answers the phone and his com is EXCELLENT! You cannot find a nicer, more knowledgable guy who will be more than happy to talk to you... even tho' you're not an immediate prospect for business. I spoke to him several times over the years, before I actually did business with him. Great guy... .
Lloyd Elliiot, 972-617-5671
10-13-2015, 12:22 PM
#3
I got a great deal on a set of AFR 210cc LT heads. Now I'm wondering if I should put them on my 94 M6 DD that has a baby cam (220/230 @ 0.050). If I did this, I would ultimately look at installing a bigger cam, but I can't go too big and still pass CA smog.
I've been told these are really race heads, they would kill my bottom end, and I'd be unhappy with them on the street. The car is a daily driver, but I don't mind if it's a little softer on the bottom end.
Other mods on the car include Hooker mid-length 1.75-inch headers, Borla cat-back, ported intake/BBK 58mm TB.
What do you think?
I've been told these are really race heads, they would kill my bottom end, and I'd be unhappy with them on the street. The car is a daily driver, but I don't mind if it's a little softer on the bottom end.
Other mods on the car include Hooker mid-length 1.75-inch headers, Borla cat-back, ported intake/BBK 58mm TB.
What do you think?
1. The AFR 210's are LT4 heads, so you'll want a LT4 intake manifold.
2. 210cc runners are HUGE for a stock bottom end. Gonna cause you some issues at low RPMs with lazy air-flow.
3. Your engine will not come close to getting the full 'benefit' from these heads if you have a 48 or 52mm TB (I run a mono-blade, BTW).
4. What CC combustion chambers do these heads have? If you don't know, then it's a complete unknown as to whether going to a bigger cam down the road will actually benefit you. At the end of the day, you absolutely MUST know your static compression ratio if you slap these heads on.
Well.....that's what I think. Hope everything works out.
KW
10-13-2015, 02:30 PM
#4
Thanks guys. I think the chamber volume is 55 cc's. I figure I'd be in the 11:1 range but could dial it in with head-gasket thickness.
I didn't think about the issue with the LT4 intake. It's these details that always make my projects more expensive than I expect!
I might be re-thinking this. . .
I didn't think about the issue with the LT4 intake. It's these details that always make my projects more expensive than I expect!
I might be re-thinking this. . .
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10-13-2015, 03:54 PM
#8
Thanks guys. I think the chamber volume is 55 cc's. I figure I'd be in the 11:1 range but could dial it in with head-gasket thickness.
I didn't think about the issue with the LT4 intake. It's these details that always make my projects more expensive than I expect!
I might be re-thinking this. . .
I didn't think about the issue with the LT4 intake. It's these details that always make my projects more expensive than I expect!
I might be re-thinking this. . .
DOLLAR BILLS!
No Mod moves without 'em. And there are no exceptions... .
Call Lloyd. He'll help ya understand what you're looking at, but Dude is right about the Lt4 Intake... and no, the LT1 is not a viable option. Although it can be ported to work.
If I were you... I'd call Lloyd and see if he is in a 'trading' mood. A nice LE port on those stockers you're running would blow your mind and a nice set of AFR 210s might get a guy a long way toward a set of ported stockers and a match-ported intake.
Hells bells, the fresh turn on the valves with new seats and seals alone would likely mean 15-20 HP from where you are now, if those are original units.
10-14-2015, 03:07 PM
#11
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I've been running a ported LT1 intake manifold with my AFR 210 heads for about six (6) months now with absolutely NO problems. 
10-14-2015, 05:12 PM
#12
10-14-2015, 06:02 PM
#13
Why does it have to be "ported to work" at least two of the LT1 castings have LARGER intake manifold ports than the LT4 manifold ports. The LT4 manifold ports are the same as the late trapezoidal LT1 ports.
So I don't quite get why the small port LT4 intake works without porting but the LT1 intake needs porting????????????
To be clear I wouldn't use the AFRs but at the same time think it good to understand what the differences in parts are.
So I don't quite get why the small port LT4 intake works without porting but the LT1 intake needs porting????????????
To be clear I wouldn't use the AFRs but at the same time think it good to understand what the differences in parts are.
10-14-2015, 08:39 PM
#15
Oh... I cannot find my Side by side photos of my Lt1 intake next to my LT4. They must have been on that Sony laptop that cratered last year. Sorry fellas... it happens. To see it is to believe it.
The runners are different. Seems like the LT1 intake runners are a but higher... a fair bit..., thus need to be ported. Plus, the LT4 intake not only matches up better, it's got more meat on the bone, post porting.
When I say viable, I'm not speaking of "instant-death... will not work", I'm saying that ya won't get anywhere near the value of what you're buying, thus what's the point?
I suppose as long as there's a hole, air will flow through it... . So if you're from that camp... fine, I guess.
The runners are different. Seems like the LT1 intake runners are a but higher... a fair bit..., thus need to be ported. Plus, the LT4 intake not only matches up better, it's got more meat on the bone, post porting.
When I say viable, I'm not speaking of "instant-death... will not work", I'm saying that ya won't get anywhere near the value of what you're buying, thus what's the point?
I suppose as long as there's a hole, air will flow through it... . So if you're from that camp... fine, I guess.
10-14-2015, 08:40 PM
#16
10-15-2015, 05:55 PM
#20
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