To All Aftermarket Clutch Owners!!!
06-13-2007, 10:12 PM
#1
To All Aftermarket Clutch Owners!!! Forgive me for how this may come across but i feel like im losing my mind.There have been a million and 1 threads about why did my clutch start slipping?Why does my clutch look like this?Why is my clutch broke,its practically brand new?This clutch company sucks!etc.
Alot of you need to realize a few things.When you slip a clutch or ride a clutch over and over again you add ALOT of heat.Heat kills clutchs and pressure plates and flywheels MUCH faster.Proper installation is key and so is proper driving.Everyone is quick to blame the clutch or the company,and it is true that every company has defects(ill get to that later),but at least half of those threads is either an install error or.....gasp....driver error.
As far as driving an M6 car
Rule number 1,DO NOT ride a clutch.I did not say dont slip a clutch.I said dont ride a clutch.Slipping a clutch to me is letting the clutch out most of the way and give it just enough gas to keep the rpms at ~1k/idle to keep it running ok,minimal gas used and not continuously applied.its more of a momentary action.Riding the clutch is using the gas while the clutch is kept in even a tad bit,like going very slow in bumper to bumper traffic having the keep the clutch partly in while still giving it gas more continuously.riding the clutch is harder to describe online but its more of a continuous clutch/throttle action or prolonged action whereas slipping is doing it quickly/shortly/less throttle.Did you know that when let out properly the factory clutch needs ZERO throttle to get the car into first and moving.Ive driven stock clutchs and aftermarket clutchs and every clutch ive driven has been fine when slipped,but has been terrible when ridden.you can slip a clutch and make it last,if you ride a clutch youre boned.Now ive heard people complain that they have to ride their clutch to leave there home or a parking spot or whatever.you do NOT have to ride it.if youre leaving a spot or your driveway,and i dont care how big of a cam you have you can leave with minimal riding,even if you have to go between neutral and reverse or neutral and first,etc.its ok to have the car in neutral and let it roll,even with the clutch pedal in as sometimes that will let the car roll more.
Another problem is downshifting or launching.if you cannot rev match,dont downshift and let the clutch do the work as that puts unnecessary strain on the clutch.if your downshifting to take off rev it up in neutral and drop gears and away you go.if youre coming to a light and have trouble downshifting just make sure you have enough speed and put it in neutral.it saves gas,less strain on parts,makes the car quieter,etc.If youve never seen anyone who really knows how to drive or launch a car go for a ride with them.Theres been plenty of threads on how to launch a stick.practice is good too,get it so youre not sitting there with the clutch pedal partically depressed more than you have to.another tip,do not rest your foot on the clutch pedal while driving as it can partially engage it just enough to cause friction and thus wear.
The company
there are tons and tons of aftermarket clutchs out there.choose a company you feel comfortable with and make sure you get a clutch for your needs and power level.IE if you have a street car and tend to be in alot of stop and go traffic or ride the clutch dont get a race oriented clutch.There is a clutch out there for everyones needs.If you have too much or too little clutch it might start slipping early or just be a PITA on the street.If you want a car that drives and sounds like stock dont get a Spec 5 as itll prolli have the infamous speak.PS.....aluminum flywheels are harder to drive on the street and more road course/auto x oriented.the weight savings isnt worth it in most cases and the hp difference is minimal despite what your friend told you.EVERY company has defects issues.Spec is the major complaint,but there have been threads with every other clutch company out there with issues.youre pushing your car harder than it was designed to from the factory so these companies try to make a product that will stand up to that,so of course there will be issues especially with the hp and traction people are doing today.Spec has the most clutches in Fbodys hands down so of course there will be more issues,its simply numbers.follow whatever the company tells you as far as install,including torque specs,compatible flywheels,bolts,breakin,driving style,hp level,etc.
My experience and install
Ive had a Spec 3 which took over 40000 miles of abuse both on and off the bottle.i was making 475ft lb's of torque on the bottle and we did everything youre not supposed to....ie spraying below the magical 3k mark,clutch dumps,nitrous burnouts,etc.We took it out of my car and put it in a car that made almost 700rwhp on a stock shortblock on the bottle.make sure you have it installed properly even if that means not doing it yourself.Use a good flywheel,even if that means not resurfacing the stock 1 to save a buck.Personally ive been a fan of the SFI approved ebay steel flywheels on ebay,theyre cheap and work well.i dont like spec flywheels,JMHO.Use a good master and slave cylinders(01+),some have done the drill mod or heat wrapped the tranny lines or balance everything to help,anything you can do to keep things cool or making sure everything is aligned properly will extend the life.Ive heard it from plenty of mechanics and racers.....use pilot bushings,NOT bearings as theres less wear on the input shaft.weve always used bushings on the local race shop without issues.use good tranny fluid,ie find out whats recommended for your app.i was told to use Synchromesh since i have a rebuilt tranny,and even though its expensive i put that in.There are guildlines from each company for a reason.
Assuming you have the right clutch and tranny setup in your car for your application and you drive it right you can make your clutch last 98% of the time.Talk to slowhawk or myself about the dredded spec 5 clutchs in street cars,no issues here.2000 Trans Zam was making 900rwhp on pump gas on a Mcleod and it was holding at the time.Theres been moderators and sponsors on here that post about their stick setups going 11's,10's,even 9's with no issues after many track passes all using different clutchs,some with stock trannys.They have the right parts installed properly and driven properly,thats why they last,and you can do the same.
(flame suit on)
Alot of you need to realize a few things.When you slip a clutch or ride a clutch over and over again you add ALOT of heat.Heat kills clutchs and pressure plates and flywheels MUCH faster.Proper installation is key and so is proper driving.Everyone is quick to blame the clutch or the company,and it is true that every company has defects(ill get to that later),but at least half of those threads is either an install error or.....gasp....driver error.
As far as driving an M6 car
Rule number 1,DO NOT ride a clutch.I did not say dont slip a clutch.I said dont ride a clutch.Slipping a clutch to me is letting the clutch out most of the way and give it just enough gas to keep the rpms at ~1k/idle to keep it running ok,minimal gas used and not continuously applied.its more of a momentary action.Riding the clutch is using the gas while the clutch is kept in even a tad bit,like going very slow in bumper to bumper traffic having the keep the clutch partly in while still giving it gas more continuously.riding the clutch is harder to describe online but its more of a continuous clutch/throttle action or prolonged action whereas slipping is doing it quickly/shortly/less throttle.Did you know that when let out properly the factory clutch needs ZERO throttle to get the car into first and moving.Ive driven stock clutchs and aftermarket clutchs and every clutch ive driven has been fine when slipped,but has been terrible when ridden.you can slip a clutch and make it last,if you ride a clutch youre boned.Now ive heard people complain that they have to ride their clutch to leave there home or a parking spot or whatever.you do NOT have to ride it.if youre leaving a spot or your driveway,and i dont care how big of a cam you have you can leave with minimal riding,even if you have to go between neutral and reverse or neutral and first,etc.its ok to have the car in neutral and let it roll,even with the clutch pedal in as sometimes that will let the car roll more.
Another problem is downshifting or launching.if you cannot rev match,dont downshift and let the clutch do the work as that puts unnecessary strain on the clutch.if your downshifting to take off rev it up in neutral and drop gears and away you go.if youre coming to a light and have trouble downshifting just make sure you have enough speed and put it in neutral.it saves gas,less strain on parts,makes the car quieter,etc.If youve never seen anyone who really knows how to drive or launch a car go for a ride with them.Theres been plenty of threads on how to launch a stick.practice is good too,get it so youre not sitting there with the clutch pedal partically depressed more than you have to.another tip,do not rest your foot on the clutch pedal while driving as it can partially engage it just enough to cause friction and thus wear.
The company
there are tons and tons of aftermarket clutchs out there.choose a company you feel comfortable with and make sure you get a clutch for your needs and power level.IE if you have a street car and tend to be in alot of stop and go traffic or ride the clutch dont get a race oriented clutch.There is a clutch out there for everyones needs.If you have too much or too little clutch it might start slipping early or just be a PITA on the street.If you want a car that drives and sounds like stock dont get a Spec 5 as itll prolli have the infamous speak.PS.....aluminum flywheels are harder to drive on the street and more road course/auto x oriented.the weight savings isnt worth it in most cases and the hp difference is minimal despite what your friend told you.EVERY company has defects issues.Spec is the major complaint,but there have been threads with every other clutch company out there with issues.youre pushing your car harder than it was designed to from the factory so these companies try to make a product that will stand up to that,so of course there will be issues especially with the hp and traction people are doing today.Spec has the most clutches in Fbodys hands down so of course there will be more issues,its simply numbers.follow whatever the company tells you as far as install,including torque specs,compatible flywheels,bolts,breakin,driving style,hp level,etc.
My experience and install
Ive had a Spec 3 which took over 40000 miles of abuse both on and off the bottle.i was making 475ft lb's of torque on the bottle and we did everything youre not supposed to....ie spraying below the magical 3k mark,clutch dumps,nitrous burnouts,etc.We took it out of my car and put it in a car that made almost 700rwhp on a stock shortblock on the bottle.make sure you have it installed properly even if that means not doing it yourself.Use a good flywheel,even if that means not resurfacing the stock 1 to save a buck.Personally ive been a fan of the SFI approved ebay steel flywheels on ebay,theyre cheap and work well.i dont like spec flywheels,JMHO.Use a good master and slave cylinders(01+),some have done the drill mod or heat wrapped the tranny lines or balance everything to help,anything you can do to keep things cool or making sure everything is aligned properly will extend the life.Ive heard it from plenty of mechanics and racers.....use pilot bushings,NOT bearings as theres less wear on the input shaft.weve always used bushings on the local race shop without issues.use good tranny fluid,ie find out whats recommended for your app.i was told to use Synchromesh since i have a rebuilt tranny,and even though its expensive i put that in.There are guildlines from each company for a reason.
Assuming you have the right clutch and tranny setup in your car for your application and you drive it right you can make your clutch last 98% of the time.Talk to slowhawk or myself about the dredded spec 5 clutchs in street cars,no issues here.2000 Trans Zam was making 900rwhp on pump gas on a Mcleod and it was holding at the time.Theres been moderators and sponsors on here that post about their stick setups going 11's,10's,even 9's with no issues after many track passes all using different clutchs,some with stock trannys.They have the right parts installed properly and driven properly,thats why they last,and you can do the same.
(flame suit on)
Last edited by ddnspider; 06-14-2007 at 01:25 PM.
06-13-2007, 11:39 PM
#3
Please clarify riding the clutch and slipping the clutch. I am not having much luck with clutches lately. My new tex twin was near impossible to drive the first 20 miles .It would stall if you let it out quick and chatter like crazy if you let it out at low rpm. It got better over next 200 miles but now it seems to be getting grabbier again and harder to drive. It seems I have to take it to 2000 and its jerky and grabby even if I let it out slow. I am hoping another few hundred miles will make it more streetable. I may install their street discs in it when pull the trans for new motor. Heck I may install an auto!
So what do you mean its ok to slip it but not ride it. I serioulsy think you have no choice to ride /slip or whatever it is with my clutch right now being so grabby and on /off.
So what do you mean its ok to slip it but not ride it. I serioulsy think you have no choice to ride /slip or whatever it is with my clutch right now being so grabby and on /off.
06-14-2007, 08:33 AM
#5
TECH Fanatic
iTrader: (2)
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: Indianapolis Indiana
Posts: 1,299
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
You slip the clutch from a dead stop when taking off... if you ride it i believe thats when I see/hear people shifting to 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th whatever car they ahve and you can hear the engine slowly decelerate with each shift. Hard to explain, when im moving after 1 gear and shift... my foot goes onto the pedal i shift and it comes right off the pedal... I get an almost automatic with a shift kit kind of shift/sound.
06-14-2007, 09:10 AM
#6
The only time I've ever ridden it is reversing, and even then it's enough to get it going and then I roll down my driveway.
Launching the car, it's pretty much an idle clutch dump, there's that half a second of being "ridden" then it grabs and I let go of the clutch completely. I doubt most people here "ride" the clutch as described enough to be the cause of the failure of a clutch, it's actually uncomfortable to leave my foot on my clutch for too long, I'd rather rest it on the stop at the side.
When up or downshifting I think that the majority of us are fairly good at rev matching the engine to our speed, it's almost subconscious for me, and the once in awhile "slip" of not revmatching is a good wake up call when the car bucks forward or backwards depending on the intent during the mismatch. Heck I don't even like powershifting, I think it's pretty rough on a clutch and drivetrain and a well executed speedshift is almost as effective.
Let's put the numbers in perspective here too, there are HOW many M6 LSx cars on the road right now, coupled with HOW many are on this website, coupled with HOW many actually post problems with their clutches here?
If we pulled out the stats class, you'll realize that there are only a vocal few who either honestly can't really drive a stick and have no business driving one, have mismatched clutches to their power levels(a highly probable stat given these type of cars), OR the few that have honest to goodness clutch problems that are mechanical or user/installer induced.
The rest of us sit here bemused by all these amazing problems screaming recall and inferior products (which some companies may deserve)...
Launching the car, it's pretty much an idle clutch dump, there's that half a second of being "ridden" then it grabs and I let go of the clutch completely. I doubt most people here "ride" the clutch as described enough to be the cause of the failure of a clutch, it's actually uncomfortable to leave my foot on my clutch for too long, I'd rather rest it on the stop at the side.
When up or downshifting I think that the majority of us are fairly good at rev matching the engine to our speed, it's almost subconscious for me, and the once in awhile "slip" of not revmatching is a good wake up call when the car bucks forward or backwards depending on the intent during the mismatch. Heck I don't even like powershifting, I think it's pretty rough on a clutch and drivetrain and a well executed speedshift is almost as effective.
Let's put the numbers in perspective here too, there are HOW many M6 LSx cars on the road right now, coupled with HOW many are on this website, coupled with HOW many actually post problems with their clutches here?
If we pulled out the stats class, you'll realize that there are only a vocal few who either honestly can't really drive a stick and have no business driving one, have mismatched clutches to their power levels(a highly probable stat given these type of cars), OR the few that have honest to goodness clutch problems that are mechanical or user/installer induced.
The rest of us sit here bemused by all these amazing problems screaming recall and inferior products (which some companies may deserve)...
Last edited by SladeX; 06-14-2007 at 09:18 AM.
06-14-2007, 10:33 AM
#7
if you honest to goodness know how to drive a stick,and had the clutch installed properly then 98% of the time you wont be posting about your clutch slipping.And this thread isnt ment for you.There have been a ton of threads or posts in threads especially about peoples clutchs starting to slip and what not.Im not just saying people who start threads about it,in alot of those threads people have come out of the worrdwork saying their clutch started slipping,almost bandwagoning it seems,which im sure isnt the case but sure looks that way.If youve had a clutch start slipping and you dont know why or didnt expect it,this thread was for you.
Trending Topics
06-14-2007, 06:37 PM
#11
I'd like to mention why my stock clutch started slipping on me though.
I hot lapped it in near 90 degree temps one too many times.
Every run was an idle clutch dump on street tires, sometimes the tires would chirp other times would bog, since I was going off idle, I wasn't too worried.
It wasn't till after that, a week later that I started noticing weird things with the clutch. It felt like it was slipping, but I thought my mind was playing with me. It'd pass the 5th and 6th gear low rpm, floor it test every time.
Eventually I could go WOT in 1st and then finally noticed the rpm and the speed not in sync with each other, the rpm would wave, and the speed would stall. Once I had this problem in 2nd and 3rd gear, I sourced out the LS7 clutch. I have to say that this beast doesn't mind being hotlapped on a bolt on car. Last weekend on drag radials I did about 20 runs in 1 and a quarter hours. 3500 rpm clutch dumps, around 70 degrees. Still holds like a champ.
Moral of the story, hot lapping is not good for stock clutches.
I hot lapped it in near 90 degree temps one too many times.
Every run was an idle clutch dump on street tires, sometimes the tires would chirp other times would bog, since I was going off idle, I wasn't too worried.
It wasn't till after that, a week later that I started noticing weird things with the clutch. It felt like it was slipping, but I thought my mind was playing with me. It'd pass the 5th and 6th gear low rpm, floor it test every time.
Eventually I could go WOT in 1st and then finally noticed the rpm and the speed not in sync with each other, the rpm would wave, and the speed would stall. Once I had this problem in 2nd and 3rd gear, I sourced out the LS7 clutch. I have to say that this beast doesn't mind being hotlapped on a bolt on car. Last weekend on drag radials I did about 20 runs in 1 and a quarter hours. 3500 rpm clutch dumps, around 70 degrees. Still holds like a champ.
Moral of the story, hot lapping is not good for stock clutches.
06-14-2007, 06:40 PM
#12
i get tired of sayin it but the truth is alot of people cant drive a stick car, ive seen many of them, and then alot of people cant install things properly either, this is mostly likely the cause of most of the bs threads we see about clutches failing, you adjust the master wrong you could smoke your clutch in a few hundred miles, im sure its been done too. 
06-14-2007, 11:03 PM
#14
Excellent write up. I vote sticky cause I'm tired of seeing all these threads the OP speaks of. Not everyone is a mechanic nor should they try to be just to save a buck then complain when somthing messes up because THEY can't believe THEY did somethng wrong. Once again, excellent write up.
06-15-2007, 05:43 AM
#15
11 Second Club
iTrader: (13)
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: apoopka, fl
Posts: 1,414
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
what dumbass put your used clutch in there 700 hp car?? what a retard..
LOL
yes it was my car.. and i sort of did it to prove a point.. i will be adding more to this when i get to work..
Mike
LOL
yes it was my car.. and i sort of did it to prove a point.. i will be adding more to this when i get to work..
Mike
06-15-2007, 06:41 AM
#17
11 Second Club
iTrader: (13)
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: apoopka, fl
Posts: 1,414
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
ok ddnspiders post kind of stemed from a convo' me and him had the other day over a thread about shitty spec clutches..
My previos job i worked for a distributor of LUK clutches.. luk is an extremely large manufacturer of clutch parts and you might be surprised how many of your aftermarket clutches have there name stamped in them.. (hell not every one can have a foundry) anyways he told me they had an 16-18% return rate under there 1yr warrenty time.. and 2% of those returns were actual defects.. he said by all means there are defects.. BUT 98% of clutch issues are user or installer error.. wether it be one of those guys who thinks hes gods gift with a clutch pedal but really sucks or MR thrifty who cheaps out on good hydraulics..
chances are if you've gone through 1 or 2 clutches you or your installer or the hydraulics is the problem..
now i ran my OLD *** 2003 model spec 3 for almost 35k miles..it went through 2 trannys.. 2 head cam setups.. and more nitrous then most would ever use in a lifetime.. when finally one day i slammed third on a 200 shot and she started to slip and well 2nd was on its way out of my tranny AGAIN.. so we pulled it all apart.. i through another T56 in with nicks (ddnspider's) 40k mile spec 3.. it lasted another good 10k with the car seeing a 300 shot from time to time.. holding 698hp and 742 ftlbs of torque.. when the hydraulics started drinking fluid.. and soaked that disc in fluid.. and now i'm converting to an auto for better ET's..
guys every one is so quick to blame the part because they were told by someguy that his 242-256 cam drives like stock and his spec 5's like butter.. it is not that way..
when you modify you make compromises.. these companys are doing a kick *** job of producuing products that help us make power that is UNHEARD of before and still maintain street driveability and decent mileage.. how much more do you want from these people??
Mike
My previos job i worked for a distributor of LUK clutches.. luk is an extremely large manufacturer of clutch parts and you might be surprised how many of your aftermarket clutches have there name stamped in them.. (hell not every one can have a foundry) anyways he told me they had an 16-18% return rate under there 1yr warrenty time.. and 2% of those returns were actual defects.. he said by all means there are defects.. BUT 98% of clutch issues are user or installer error.. wether it be one of those guys who thinks hes gods gift with a clutch pedal but really sucks or MR thrifty who cheaps out on good hydraulics..
chances are if you've gone through 1 or 2 clutches you or your installer or the hydraulics is the problem..
now i ran my OLD *** 2003 model spec 3 for almost 35k miles..it went through 2 trannys.. 2 head cam setups.. and more nitrous then most would ever use in a lifetime.. when finally one day i slammed third on a 200 shot and she started to slip and well 2nd was on its way out of my tranny AGAIN.. so we pulled it all apart.. i through another T56 in with nicks (ddnspider's) 40k mile spec 3.. it lasted another good 10k with the car seeing a 300 shot from time to time.. holding 698hp and 742 ftlbs of torque.. when the hydraulics started drinking fluid.. and soaked that disc in fluid.. and now i'm converting to an auto for better ET's..
guys every one is so quick to blame the part because they were told by someguy that his 242-256 cam drives like stock and his spec 5's like butter.. it is not that way..
when you modify you make compromises.. these companys are doing a kick *** job of producuing products that help us make power that is UNHEARD of before and still maintain street driveability and decent mileage.. how much more do you want from these people??
Mike
06-15-2007, 07:37 PM
#20
9 Second Club
Originally Posted by SMOKIN01TA
i get tired of sayin it but the truth is alot of people cant drive a stick car
Such an understatement. Ive said it so many times here too. The USA seems to be the land of the faulty clutch...
Something I just dont believe can be true. A LOT of the cases of "faulty" clutches, are down to a faulty driver lol
Clutches do slip a little, but that doesnt mean you should slip them.
Your foot should be in 2 places when driving. Either fully depressed, or not at all.
If its in between for anymore than a second at a time, under 99% of driving conditions, you are driving it wrong, and prematurely wearing out your clutch, even more so if you are revving the crap out of it at the same time..
Photos of damaged clutches prove this. Most have been fried to a crisp... why ???