Dual Flash/Prom LSX PCM - looking for expert knowlege.
03-25-2010, 08:46 PM
#1
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Dual Flash/Prom LSX PCM - looking for expert knowlege. I'm refering to this PCM:
https://ls1tech.com/forums/new-produ...s-one-pcm.html
There is a possibilty that we may have a person racing in a road racing series who could be using this PCM. He is required by rule to meet a set power to weight ratio. The dyno sheet turned in reads about 120hp less than the data logger that was attached to his car said it was making (MaxQ Data). We confirmed the nubers by using it on a know HP/TQ 4thgen. We are pretty sure he's cheating since most LS1 based C5's w/ headers make the numbers he's claiming, but he has a very, very large cam and possibly other stuff. My guess is 480hp w/ the sound the idle and how the car sounds on track.
Is there a way to look at the PCM and tell if he has this in his car w/out opening it up?
https://ls1tech.com/forums/new-produ...s-one-pcm.html
There is a possibilty that we may have a person racing in a road racing series who could be using this PCM. He is required by rule to meet a set power to weight ratio. The dyno sheet turned in reads about 120hp less than the data logger that was attached to his car said it was making (MaxQ Data). We confirmed the nubers by using it on a know HP/TQ 4thgen. We are pretty sure he's cheating since most LS1 based C5's w/ headers make the numbers he's claiming, but he has a very, very large cam and possibly other stuff. My guess is 480hp w/ the sound the idle and how the car sounds on track.
Is there a way to look at the PCM and tell if he has this in his car w/out opening it up?
03-25-2010, 10:20 PM
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Since it physically fits into the body of the pcm without any alterations it would not be easily spotted. The quickest way to check would be to remove the connectors from the pcm & look for the extra pin used to switch between the two tunes.
03-26-2010, 08:40 AM
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That helps and I was already thinking that. I was hoping the PCM was marked or serialized from the company who makes them. I'll contact them, but i dont think they will be willing to provide info that may out a possible customer of thiers.
03-26-2010, 08:49 AM
#4
Glenn, even with a very large cam, if you put in a restrictor, his MAP will drop so significantly that he will not make the power up top. However, if the cam is set up to make mad low/mid range, he would gain significantly there, without breaking hp/weight rules. This is what WRC cars do with boost instead of cams. He might be cheating, or he might be just playing it smart. Do you know if he's got a restrictor on?
03-26-2010, 09:06 AM
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We do not know if he has a restriction in place for the dyno pulls.
So the method decribed above would trick a data logger into reporting a 120hp decrepancy? I'm not buying into that.
If I'm understanding you correctly, the above example could result in a dyno pull of 360hp and similare torque, but the data logger would result in 480+ hp and similare torque. Even though the data logger was placed on my own car and the Assistant Race Directors own car and the results match our dyno sheets to w/in 1%.
Please ensure I'm understanding you correctly and help me understand how this works. For now, I'm not buying it.
And yes, I'm pretty sure you know what your talking about.
So the method decribed above would trick a data logger into reporting a 120hp decrepancy? I'm not buying into that.
If I'm understanding you correctly, the above example could result in a dyno pull of 360hp and similare torque, but the data logger would result in 480+ hp and similare torque. Even though the data logger was placed on my own car and the Assistant Race Directors own car and the results match our dyno sheets to w/in 1%.
Please ensure I'm understanding you correctly and help me understand how this works. For now, I'm not buying it.
And yes, I'm pretty sure you know what your talking about.
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03-26-2010, 10:08 AM
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So if I can look over the car to find it, what do I look for other than whats been mentioned (extra pin in the PCM)?
03-26-2010, 11:58 AM
#10
If it were a customer, I would of course respect his privacy regarding the purchase.
However, since no one I have sold one to even REMOTELY fits the description, I'll chime in. The only two I have sold to Texas were for nitrous F-bodies. I know because I was paid to make the base for one car, and I lightly assisted a tuner with the second unit. All of my first batch sold had bead-blasted cases. You could remove my sticker that I put on them, but the case doesn't look like a normal PCM case because of the blasting.
I also use a standard pin, but it's one that I arrived at on my own so it's unlikely someone else doing this would choose the same.
If it were built from the beginning with stealth in mind, the trigger to switch calibrations can be put on a huge number of different pins, even one that was already in use for something non-critically control related (such as emissions or the like) could be used.
However, since no one I have sold one to even REMOTELY fits the description, I'll chime in. The only two I have sold to Texas were for nitrous F-bodies. I know because I was paid to make the base for one car, and I lightly assisted a tuner with the second unit. All of my first batch sold had bead-blasted cases. You could remove my sticker that I put on them, but the case doesn't look like a normal PCM case because of the blasting.
I also use a standard pin, but it's one that I arrived at on my own so it's unlikely someone else doing this would choose the same.
If it were built from the beginning with stealth in mind, the trigger to switch calibrations can be put on a huge number of different pins, even one that was already in use for something non-critically control related (such as emissions or the like) could be used.
03-26-2010, 12:23 PM
#11
The trigger pin is what you need to look for or if allowed pull the PCM connectors and check the pinout. This would take less than 5 minutes if you had the correct information in from of you.
I have been involed with a company that sells them since the company started.
I have been involed with a company that sells them since the company started.
03-26-2010, 12:50 PM
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If it were a customer, I would of course respect his privacy regarding the purchase.
However, since no one I have sold one to even REMOTELY fits the description, I'll chime in. The only two I have sold to Texas were for nitrous F-bodies. I know because I was paid to make the base for one car, and I lightly assisted a tuner with the second unit. All of my first batch sold had bead-blasted cases. You could remove my sticker that I put on them, but the case doesn't look like a normal PCM case because of the blasting.
I also use a standard pin, but it's one that I arrived at on my own so it's unlikely someone else doing this would choose the same.
If it were built from the beginning with stealth in mind, the trigger to switch calibrations can be put on a huge number of different pins, even one that was already in use for something non-critically control related (such as emissions or the like) could be used.
However, since no one I have sold one to even REMOTELY fits the description, I'll chime in. The only two I have sold to Texas were for nitrous F-bodies. I know because I was paid to make the base for one car, and I lightly assisted a tuner with the second unit. All of my first batch sold had bead-blasted cases. You could remove my sticker that I put on them, but the case doesn't look like a normal PCM case because of the blasting.
I also use a standard pin, but it's one that I arrived at on my own so it's unlikely someone else doing this would choose the same.
If it were built from the beginning with stealth in mind, the trigger to switch calibrations can be put on a huge number of different pins, even one that was already in use for something non-critically control related (such as emissions or the like) could be used.
I've been in the electronics repair filed for almost 20 years, so I know the trigger could be placed on any pin regarless of its original OEM use. The bead-blasted case's help as does you only having sold these to a small number of Texas cars.
The main thing is the dyno does not match the cars performance or its data from the data logger. And untill it does, he will likely be in hot water.
You guys have been a great help.
03-26-2010, 04:11 PM
#13
what is keeping the customer from flashing the processor between the dyno runs and the performance? A custom OS can do a similar function to the power change if you spark was retareded enough.
A handheld can flash the processor with a custom calibration in less than a minute, so it may be another thing to look into.
swapping cases to a stock case is a 5 minute job, and if I wanted to be sneaky I would certainly do that, especially on a vette with the pcm location not being viewable.
Ryan
A handheld can flash the processor with a custom calibration in less than a minute, so it may be another thing to look into.
swapping cases to a stock case is a 5 minute job, and if I wanted to be sneaky I would certainly do that, especially on a vette with the pcm location not being viewable.
Ryan
03-26-2010, 05:04 PM
#14
The trigger pin is what you need to look for or if allowed pull the PCM connectors and check the pinout. This would take less than 5 minutes if you had the correct information in from of you.
I have been involed with a company that sells them since the company started.
I have been involed with a company that sells them since the company started.
But it could still look stock... I could tie the switching input to skip shift, EGR, A/C, anything and let the OEM harness take it away to the connector where it would meet the switched ground to change flash media.
03-26-2010, 05:39 PM
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You guys are right were I'm going already. I was hoping this guy wasnt that smart. Thats alot of work to cheat for a $2 trophy and bragging rights.
The PCM can be sealed to the car and the OBD2 port can be sealed as well.
And you all are correct. If he wanted to win bad enough, we couldnt catch him, except though this data logger. And in the very near future, thats all we are gonna need to police folks. So unless he wants to sandbag everytime he's on track w/ the logger, his best interest is to fix the car and make it legal.
The PCM can be sealed to the car and the OBD2 port can be sealed as well.
And you all are correct. If he wanted to win bad enough, we couldnt catch him, except though this data logger. And in the very near future, thats all we are gonna need to police folks. So unless he wants to sandbag everytime he's on track w/ the logger, his best interest is to fix the car and make it legal.
