Please help with my VE Table. Please look inside!
04-02-2006, 08:12 PM
#1
Please help with my VE Table. Please look inside! Ok, I have been tunning this thing for a month and I can't figure out why I have this "puddle" in the idle range of my chart. 
I have seen other charts and I know that this is not OK. The really strange thing is that my LTFT's are still like -6 to -9 in this area. Please offer some suggestions.
My MAF is completely removed and the fail freq is set to 0. Also, the MIL light is set to off but the code is on. All my other LTFT's are within the 0 to -2 range. I just cant figure out why my idle area is so low. If I bring them up, my car wont idle. I am open to all suggestions.
I have seen other charts and I know that this is not OK. The really strange thing is that my LTFT's are still like -6 to -9 in this area. Please offer some suggestions.My MAF is completely removed and the fail freq is set to 0. Also, the MIL light is set to off but the code is on. All my other LTFT's are within the 0 to -2 range. I just cant figure out why my idle area is so low. If I bring them up, my car wont idle. I am open to all suggestions.
04-03-2006, 07:55 AM
#3
Weird that my narrow band O2's would work for everything but idle. I was under the impression that the narrow bands were OK for the VE Tuning. I have even gotten my PE tuning pretty dead on with my stock O2's. It's just idle land that is giving me trouble.
Re: IFR. This is a good question. Should IFR be set to desired at the begining of the corresponding temp cell or the end? Or should I go with the average. It varies as the temp rises within the cell that you are logging. I think that I am also experiencing the problem that some others are having with regards to the warm starts after the car has sat for a few minutes. It gets really lean when you start it (idles like ***) for like 2-3 minutes and then settles down to where it should be. There is another thread about this issue with the SD tuning. On cold starts, it fires right up. It is only on warm starts. The VE table problem above has nothing to do with that though.
Re: IFR. This is a good question. Should IFR be set to desired at the begining of the corresponding temp cell or the end? Or should I go with the average. It varies as the temp rises within the cell that you are logging. I think that I am also experiencing the problem that some others are having with regards to the warm starts after the car has sat for a few minutes. It gets really lean when you start it (idles like ***) for like 2-3 minutes and then settles down to where it should be. There is another thread about this issue with the SD tuning. On cold starts, it fires right up. It is only on warm starts. The VE table problem above has nothing to do with that though.
04-03-2006, 11:29 AM
#4
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Your injector fuel rate should be constant based on the manugacturers curve. What injectors do you have? WB02 is just something you should have, there under 200 bucks and really help with part throttle and WOT. Idle yea your right your fine, but its still a nice tool to have incase for some reason you have a bad o2, or a spot where the o2 doesnt sample quick enough to get a full understanding of what is happening.
The reason i suggest checking your IFR table is because your VE values look low to me. Take all my advice with a grain of salt, i dont own hpt or EFILive nor have i ever done tuning on someones car the only reason i know anything is LS1tech, EFILive forums, and occasionally the HPT forums.
The reason i suggest checking your IFR table is because your VE values look low to me. Take all my advice with a grain of salt, i dont own hpt or EFILive nor have i ever done tuning on someones car the only reason i know anything is LS1tech, EFILive forums, and occasionally the HPT forums.
04-03-2006, 11:40 AM
#5
Whoa. Yeah...something is not right there. Your VE values should be higher than that (at least that's what I'd think). Definitely go over your IFR table again, and I'd suggest getting a wideband. I'll get a pic of what my VE table looks like, and I know it is on the money.
04-03-2006, 02:27 PM
#7
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I can't believe you're still running O2's and fuel learn-mode with your combination.
Oh well, what sort of spark advance are you running for idle mode? and how have you set your spark compensators up & down?
I'm thinking if you clean up the idle you can get it solidly down to the 800 RPM cell and probably have less of a problem in that area.
I just posted in the other lean-idle thread about checking your learn-cell boundaries to see if your idle is near a boundary.
Oh well, what sort of spark advance are you running for idle mode? and how have you set your spark compensators up & down?
I'm thinking if you clean up the idle you can get it solidly down to the 800 RPM cell and probably have less of a problem in that area.
I just posted in the other lean-idle thread about checking your learn-cell boundaries to see if your idle is near a boundary.
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04-03-2006, 03:37 PM
#8
Are you adjusting all of the cells when you scale? If your computer is telling you to correct:55 - 80 kpa 800 and 1200, you should scale 15 - 80 kpa. The computer interpolates so you may be getting skewed readings. If my laptop tells me to take 5%-8% fuel out at those numbers I take 5% all the way down to 15kpa so the VE is scaled accordingly.
Phil
Phil
04-03-2006, 08:02 PM
#9
Originally Posted by Spenser309
Your injector fuel rate should be constant based on the manugacturers curve. What injectors do you have? WB02 is just something you should have, there under 200 bucks and really help with part throttle and WOT. Idle yea your right your fine, but its still a nice tool to have incase for some reason you have a bad o2, or a spot where the o2 doesnt sample quick enough to get a full understanding of what is happening.
The reason i suggest checking your IFR table is because your VE values look low to me. Take all my advice with a grain of salt, i dont own hpt or EFILive nor have i ever done tuning on someones car the only reason i know anything is LS1tech, EFILive forums, and occasionally the HPT forums.
The reason i suggest checking your IFR table is because your VE values look low to me. Take all my advice with a grain of salt, i dont own hpt or EFILive nor have i ever done tuning on someones car the only reason i know anything is LS1tech, EFILive forums, and occasionally the HPT forums.
Stock injectors. The curve should be correct. I would love to have a WBO2 but I purchased the none EIO version of HPT (I regret it). I am not aware of where you can get a WBO2 with some sort of digital (accurate) gage for under $300.00. Please advise if you know where to get one.
I think that my IFR is correct based on my LTIT + STIT readings and my desired Air flow numbers.
04-03-2006, 08:04 PM
#10
Originally Posted by MeentSS02
Whoa. Yeah...something is not right there. Your VE values should be higher than that (at least that's what I'd think). Definitely go over your IFR table again, and I'd suggest getting a wideband. I'll get a pic of what my VE table looks like, and I know it is on the money.
04-03-2006, 08:09 PM
#11
Originally Posted by white2001s10
I can't believe you're still running O2's and fuel learn-mode with your combination.
Oh well, what sort of spark advance are you running for idle mode? and how have you set your spark compensators up & down?
I'm thinking if you clean up the idle you can get it solidly down to the 800 RPM cell and probably have less of a problem in that area.
I just posted in the other lean-idle thread about checking your learn-cell boundaries to see if your idle is near a boundary.
Oh well, what sort of spark advance are you running for idle mode? and how have you set your spark compensators up & down?
I'm thinking if you clean up the idle you can get it solidly down to the 800 RPM cell and probably have less of a problem in that area.
I just posted in the other lean-idle thread about checking your learn-cell boundaries to see if your idle is near a boundary.
I will check out the other thread.
04-03-2006, 08:28 PM
#12
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Stock injectors with that setup??,you should really get a wideband on that motor,i dont know how its possible for stock injectors to feed a 402 with afr 225's and a cam like that..
04-03-2006, 08:32 PM
#13
Originally Posted by Phil99vette
Are you adjusting all of the cells when you scale? If your computer is telling you to correct:55 - 80 kpa 800 and 1200, you should scale 15 - 80 kpa. The computer interpolates so you may be getting skewed readings. If my laptop tells me to take 5%-8% fuel out at those numbers I take 5% all the way down to 15kpa so the VE is scaled accordingly.
Phil
Phil
04-03-2006, 08:42 PM
#14
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You need to do some hand smoothing on the cells that you don't normally hit. Part of the reason you're still showing rich in those cells is because of how the computer references the VE table. Magnus mentioned a long time ago that the VE table works off of referencing not only the current cell for fueling values, but also the cells that surround the cell being used.
To help you with the hand smoothing, you want to go from the lowest value in the upper left hand corner, to the highest value in (almost) the bottom right. Like it was said before though, your VE numbers are definitely low in the upper RPM's...
To help you with the hand smoothing, you want to go from the lowest value in the upper left hand corner, to the highest value in (almost) the bottom right. Like it was said before though, your VE numbers are definitely low in the upper RPM's...
Last edited by SMOKINV8; 04-03-2006 at 09:00 PM. Reason: fixed a bad typo
04-03-2006, 08:48 PM
#15
Originally Posted by redtail2426
Stock injectors with that setup??,you should really get a wideband on that motor,i dont know how its possible for stock injectors to feed a 402 with afr 225's and a cam like that..
04-03-2006, 08:52 PM
#16
Originally Posted by SMOKINV8
You need to do some hand smoothing on the cells that you don't normally hit. Part of the reason you're still showing rich in those cells is because of how the computer references the VE table. Magnus mentioned a long time ago that the VE table works off of referencing not only the current cell for fueling values, but also the cells that surround the cell being used.
To help you with the hand smoothing, you want to go from the lowest value in the upper right hand corner, to the highest value in (almost) the bottom right. Like it was said before though, your VE numbers are definitely low in the upper RPM's...
To help you with the hand smoothing, you want to go from the lowest value in the upper right hand corner, to the highest value in (almost) the bottom right. Like it was said before though, your VE numbers are definitely low in the upper RPM's...
04-03-2006, 08:57 PM
#18
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Your impression is wrong about fueling. If the MAF is disconnected, the VE is what is referenced for fueling values. The PE is just the table that determines how much more fuel is added at various RPM ranges, aka it determines your commanded AFR while you're in PE mode (WOT, or at least heavy throttle). If your VE table is too low, you're going to be leaner than commanded.
04-03-2006, 11:04 PM
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Before i go insane why do you speak of Injector Flow Rate and IFR tables as two different things???? Are they? I've gone through every table in EFILive and I can not find it? What is IFR if not Injector Flow Rate? Simple Question, come on need answer because right now im really confused, it literally would change my whole understanding of tuning if this is true.
Last edited by Spenser309; 04-04-2006 at 01:52 AM.
04-04-2006, 08:57 AM
#20
Originally Posted by SMOKINV8
Mine isn't perfect yet (is it ever? 
), but it will at least give you a reference point of some sort.
), but it will at least give you a reference point of some sort.