SEABASSS03

Hey guys, bought this 2000 pontiac firebird from my uncle that moved out of state (snow area) he didnt want to take with him so i got for $1300, 171,000 miles, upon inspection i did noticed a brown clumpy coolant stick, but no over heating, gauge wont go higher than 210 degree.. I just did oil change, filter change, trans fluid flush, new fluids..

Will a radiator flush do the job? Car runs really good!!

Daniel Richards

iTrader: (1)

In the case of something like that you will want to go a bit more then a simple flush more then likely, first start by popping the cap on the radiator and see what it looks like inside, remember that is the overflow tank your looking at. After inspection I would suggest the following:

Step 1: FLUSH the overflow tank by shoving a garden hose in it and running water till it flows out clear, agitating the hose up and down will help clear deposits.

If the sludge continues into the cooling system, seen my looking in the radiator move on to step 2

Step 2: Remove the thermostat and reinstall the thermostat neck
Step 3: open radiator drain ALL THE WAY
Step 4: Run the garden hose into the top of the radiator letting it drain out the bottom.
Step 5: systematically go hose by hose thru the entire cooling system and backflush using the garden hose to clear out as much gunk as possible.
Step 6: Now do a flush using some kind of cleaner/degreaser (I think I used Purple Power on mine), this is done by adding about half a gallon of it to the radiator, running the car a few minutes to circulate it (remember the thermostat is removed so it will circulate immediately, DO NOT DRIVE IT AROUND JUST IDLE) then allow it to sit for 15-20 minutes to breakdown more gunk then use the water hose and repeat step 5.

This may be a bit excessive but better to get it all then leave crap behind.

after you've thoroughly rinsed everything install a new thermostat and fill with the proper ratio of coolant to water and bleed the system from the screw on the thermostat housing (assuming the 3.8 v6).

that clumpy look is the result of 2 types of incompatible coolant mixing and can clog the system so you have to treat it pretty aggressively in my book.

SEABASSS03

Ahhhhhh what good good information, i kinda did some research and i think i can tackle this down.. You have been very helpful and thank you very much...

After the trans and oil change , firebird runs real good, im not going to drive it again untill rad flush is done.. Thanks again

fbody4everyone

is this a 3.8?
i owned one for a couple years, and had the same problem. from what I've came across, the clumpy mess is from previous owners mixing orange and green coolant most likely. makes a brown smudge cover over the dipstick. just an observation from experience

SEABASSS03

Yea buddy, good old 3.8 V6.. Good info, so do u think i should just do a flush and contact a pontiac dealership to make sure im using the correct radiator fluid? Overall Im in love with the car, alot of looks (head turner) and runs good..

Thanks bud

LLLosingit

iTrader: (4)

The dealership will most likely tell you to run Dexcool..... I would not put that crap in anything I own. Just do web search for Dexcool and you'll see I'm not alone.
I use the regular green antifreeze. http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news0...m_dexcool.html

(2006) Lawsuits Pending

At last count there were 14 lawsuits filed in state and federal courts throughout the country by GM vehicle owners angered over their experience with Dex-Cool.

A Missouri judge may soon grant class-action status to suits in his state -- and that would mean that millions of GM customers could become involved in the lawsuit. The Missouri Supreme Court has declined to hear an appeal from GM challenging class-action certification.

The Missouri suit was filed in April 2003 alleging GM vehicles with Dex-Cool in their cooling systems developed a rusty sludge.

SEABASSS03

Nice! Good to know... Ive heard about Dex-Cool but always though dealerships were right!! Guess know.. Imma go to my local NAPA and grab me some coolant., thanks brotha

fbody4everyone

yes, stick to the original green stuff for sure and for the flushing thoroughly part, I don't have any fancy way of doing it except for a water hose connected to an air chuck fancy tool that we used at school, but when I had this problem, i ended up replacing the radiator anyways because it was so gunked up. so whether you have overheating problems or not, i would seriously flush it, or consider replacing radiator, because it'll end up effecting thermostat and heating problems. butl i sure do miss the memories in my 3.8!

guppymech

iTrader: (7)

I get the brown gunk in my coolant recovery tank too. I have changed the antifreeze many times over the years. Every fall when I park the car I pull the battery and then the coolant recovery tank to flush it out. There's always some gunk in it. I put <3k mikes on the car a year so I don't worry about it.

SEABASSS03

I was going to take to my bro in law hes a mechanic, but i think i can knock this out will all the good info giving on forum, Imma look into prices for the radiator depending on how the flush goes... on thing, where is the thermostat located? im a newbie lol

Werid huh how that happens, scared me thats why i jumped on the forum...thanks buddy..

fbody4everyone

If you follow the upper radiator hose, it leads right to it. Its just a couple of bolts, take it out, put a new one in. or just clean the one you have and put it back in.
just scrape the rubber gasket off and put silicone or fresh gasket on it and call it good. that'll help with clogging!

Daniel Richards

iTrader: (1)

Yup right on top of the motor, also note for the 3.8 the screw threaded into the side of the thermostat housing is how you bleed the air from the system, I wouldn't silicone around the thermostat, the gasket is only a few bucks and goes on the thermostat itself, as long as no one has siliconed anything there before it should come out clean (or break into pieces depending on how old it is).

wssix99

iTrader: (5)

Welcome to LS1Tech.com! There is a lot of good information on the site, but you should still look out for information taken out of context and mythology that persists in our automotive folklore.

You should be fine with Dexcool. I understand some earlier GM models had issues with it when it was new, but F-Bodies haven't had the same complications. As long as you change the fluid according to the recommendations, (I expect that was not done with your car.) you should be fine with the red stuff.

Some of us also have gunk issues when the V8 Power Steering cooler leaks, but that shouldn't be your issue here.

BTW - You'll want to check out the stickies and do the door panel fix, if you haven't seen that already!

SEABASSS03

Thanks guys, i did locate the thermostat, and will be doing the Rad flush tomorrow morning... When I removed the rad cap it had gunk gunk gunk... looked like chocolate pudding But trips me out is that the car runs real real good, shifts like a dream, has good power, and no overheating.. I did notice that the power stearings alittle tight..I looked at the power stearing pump and look to be oil wet power stearing fluid, But fluid is full up to full line.... I do smell burn radiator fluid when i drive, maybe theres no fluid in the radiator lmao....i will keep you guys posted tomorrow once i get it done. thanks

LLLosingit

iTrader: (4)

I have to disagree, Dex-cool problems are far from a myth. I have been a mechanic for over 30 years and have never seen cooling system problems like I have since GM started using Dex-cool. They say it should last 150,000 miles/5yrs before needing serviced but have repaired many that lasted less than half that before the system was needing major repairs. Flush/Hoses replaced/ Intake gaskets replaced/Water pumps replaced. Yet vehicles that were pre-dexcool come in and have never had the cooling system serviced still look like new.

Even GM said there was a serious problem but of course blamed it on owners>

According to internal GM documents, the ultimate culprit appears to be operating vehicles for long periods of time with low coolant levels. The low coolant is caused by pressure caps that fail in the open position. (The new caps and recovery bottles were introduced at the same time as DEX-COOL). This exposes hot engine components to air and vapors, causing corrosion and contamination of the coolant with iron oxide particles, which in turn can aggravate the pressure cap problem as contamination holds the caps open permanently.

wssix99

iTrader: (5)

This is not a big deal. Your coolant is just and breaking down. Flush, re-fill, and you should be good to go. You should be on at least your third flush and fill of coolant by now, considering the age of your car. You very well could be looking at the original coolant, which should have been changed almost 10 years ago!

The old coolant will still do its job for you - but you don't want that gel getting worse and clogging things up.



Well, this is a site for tech discussion. Where did you get your technical information that properly maintained Dex-cool causes problems on F-Bodies?

The use of Dex-cool is pervasive. You can generalize a bunch of coolant issues being the fault of the "kid with red hair," but that doesn't really stand up to science.


Again, you just can't generalize all this stuff as being the fault of Dex-cool. As you pointed out, there were leaps in cooling technology and the metallurgy of the individual cooling components that appeared at the same time as Dex-cool. There are too many variables here to single out the coolant.


There are legions of very intelligent metallurgists, chemists, and engineers behind modern engine design (not just GM) that continue to specify and use Dex-cool. Is there some knowledge that these folks are missing that they should be made aware of? Are there mass recalls out there because Dex-cool isn't living up to the 100K mile warranties that some of its cars come with?

SEABASSS03

Thanks wsslx99 good info,

Well today i went ahead and drained, removed the overflow tank, rinsed the hell out of it, gunk gunk gunk!! Took me about 15 rinses to get over flow tank with clear water, also changed the rad to overflow tank hose since it was like spaghetti and cracked, installed it all back up, flush with water, then i used prestone rad flush and added water, ran the bird for 10mins got hot, fans came on then ahut car off too cool down.. i then reflushed after 30 mins waiting ran water, turned on bird for another 10 mins, turned off then flushed after 30 mins, then i was ready for that good ol old school green radiator 50/50 fluid..

I got to say im happy with the results, temp will not go pass 210degrees, went on freeway, came back home and topped it off with more radiator fluid... I let it get cold again, went back to freeway, came back and topped it off one last time.. 40 mins later went back of freeway, came back let cool off, and didnt have to add anymore fluids.. Was full and green..


I guess it has never been done before, the bad radiator smell is gone and im a happy camper! I will check fluids in a 2 days and check for leaks as the days go! Thanks guys

great421

iTrader: (1)

When I put in a new radiator, the owner of the local radiator shop (a former Aston Martin certified Tech) gave me a trade / technical publication article that detailed the faults with Dexcool. The article stated Polyethylene Glycol has a higher coefficient of Thermal Conductivity (i.e. - it cools better). He never puts Dexcool in any vehicles that are serviced at his shop.

My step-father (a retired GM / ASE-certified Master Tech - in ALL areas) told me horror stories about Dexcool AND mentioned various GM "campaigns" (i.e. - recall-like actions when customers with particular vehicles come in with specific "issues") associated with Dexcool. He actively removes Dexcool from his vehicles.

Getting back to MY new radiator, when I put in a new stock replacement (one of the plastic side tanks cracked), I had the Dexcool flushed out and the standard Green Polyethylene Glycol put in - it now runs 10 to 15 degrees cooler, and I don't need to worry about holes in my Aluminum components because Polyethylene Glycol doesn't react with non-ferrous metals like Dexcool does.

Having said all that, just because GM introduced something that is flawed (there, I said it!) and has decided to continue using it, this doesn't make it superior. I would submit for your consideration that if GM stopped using Dexcool, this action would be looked upon in the eyes of the US court system as a de facto recall and that 'admission' would simply support the positions of the various plaintiffs who have pending litigation against GM.

Finally, these "very intelligent metallurgists, chemists, and engineers" (BTW - I am a Mechanical Engineer with an MBA and I did work at GM Powertrain for a number of years in the 90's) are only men; men who, at times can make mistakes. Nobody EXCEPT the "very intelligent metallurgists, chemists, and engineers" at Porsche thinks a rear-engine / rear wheel drive vehicle is the best way to configure a vehicle, but Porsche continues, year-after-year, to stubbornly build bass-ackward 911's.

(OK, rant over. You may now call me names, claim that my logic is flawed, and tell me that I am ugly and my mother dresses me funny. Please just don't tell anyone to keep Dexcool in their vehicles because it is inferior to Polyethylene Glycol.)

wssix99

iTrader: (5)

Like I mentioned above, this site is all about technical discussion. Anyone can stand up on a soap box, beat their chest, list their degrees, and expound on the way things should be. However, not all things on the internet are true and our site doesn't have a special feature where we can anoint certain members as being the purveyors of true unsubstantiated fact.

I'm not taking sides in the epic red vs. green battle, but I am in search of good resources of knowledge here. I do not buy in to the argument that "all red antifreeze is bad in all situations" and have yet to see a scientific document stating the same.

Another thing is that the context of vehicle usage is important to take in to account. Is red antifreeze the best choice for a race car? Probably not. Is it the best choice for a daily driver, stock car, or one where the owner wants to increase their maintenance interval? Maybe. If the OP's car indeed has never had its coolant changed over 171K miles, I have to think that having the red there vs. green was a good thing.


So... where is this publication for the rest of us to benefit from?


I think we covered that above. There were problems on specific models with differing components and materials. Where is the details on this being a problem for F-Bodies?


Now, that can't be true. My understanding of mechanical engineering has led me to believe for years that the temperature an engine runs at is regulated by the thermostat and not the type of coolant in the system.

If you meant to say that the outlet temperature in the radiator is 10-15 degrees cooler, how do you know that the improvement isn't due to the new radiator you put in at the same time? Even if it's due to the coolant, why would that matter since the system circulation is controlled by the thermostat?

SEABASSS03

ok update, so after 2 weeks of changing fluids and cleaning out over flow, and adding good old green radiator fluids, the brown chunky stuff is back, it like haunting me lol...but i guess its normal, not sure if i should do anothe flush? or just leave it alone, its not over heating, stays well below the 210 mark,.