Considering a GMMG... Berger SS, Blackbird, TH, PE, HRE?
04-26-2014, 05:03 PM
#1
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Considering a GMMG... Berger SS, Blackbird, TH, PE, HRE? I've owned 5 LT1/LS1 cars over the years but never a GMMG 380 hp car. On paper this is only an advertised 35 hp more than the 2002 SS's and Hawks with high flow lids and performance exhaust. Is there really a noticeable difference in these 2 set ups?
I'd probably prefer an automatic as I've had more than enough fun with 6 speeds over the years and just want to enjoy cruising the car, not shift it at every stop light and stop sign all over town. And let's face it, few us can shift a 6 speed faster than an automatic shifts itself. The automatic also lets me wife enjoy the car as there is no hope she will ever learn to competently drive a stick. The downside is that there are virtually no available automatics in the GMMG cars (about 20 cars out of 550 built?). The Camaro Hot Rod Edition cars have over a dozen of them but I can't get past the lack of an SS hood on that car. I don't believe any Berger's came with automatics unless they were altered after the factory. Certainly no automatic DEI's. Maybe 3 Tom Henry's. Not sure of any in the Blackbirds. And there are very few choices of automatics in the other GMMG cars, and they often bring more money. It probably brings me right back to considering 6 speed cars. Considering some of the issues with the T56's (weak synchros, forks, rattles, etc.), the 380 hp engines and 3.73 gears only add to those concerns. Will these 6 speeds and clutches get the same life as they would behind 345 hp / 3.42 geared cars? You wouldn't think so. Do these 380 hp require more tuning/maintenance/attention than your typical OEM SS/WS6?
The 3 Tom Henry automatics are supposedly rated for only 360 hp. That doesn't make any sense to have the automatic rated 20 hp less on this model. But for the extra expense that a GMMG car costs, 360 hp doesn't cut it in my book. Or are these cars purposely underrated? What did TH and GMMG do to kill 20 hp? I've not seen such a disparity between automatic vs. manual on any other car equipped with the same engine.
My other questions have to do with mileage and number of owners. Is there some point where a GMMG car is too well-traveled (say 30,000 miles and 3 or more owners) where the demand for them dries up and one should look elsewhere? From my brief search over the past few months it would seem that the majority of the GMMG cars have between 5,000-30,000 miles with a pretty significant percentage well under 10,000 miles. With so many of these ultra low mileage cars basically sitting for the past 12-14 years that leads to leaky seals in the engine, trans, cooling, and AC systems. A car driven at least once every month or seems like a better bet....even if that means 20,000 miles rather than 2,000 miles.
From gauging GMMG prices from back in 2007-2009 it actually seems that the typical Berger and TH cars cost every bit as much as they did back then, if not more. I see examples of some low mileage cars selling for low $20's five to seven years ago. The cars bringing low $20's today are higher mileage ones (ie >30,000 miles). Maybe some of the upper end/low mileage cars have come down in price, but the average one seems to cost more. The DEI's seem to have come down the most. There's one not located far from me with only 97 miles. I'd be wary of owning such a car knowing I can't put any miles on it and what about it's mechanical condition from sitting stone cold for essentially 13 years? Other than that, the price on that one seems very reasonable. For someone with a stable of multiple cars, equalizing out the mileage is less of an issue.
I see the Year One PR-1 Blackbird offered from the UK at $32K. Would be a good deal if the car were in the US. I'm not going to be the one to ship it back and "hope" it comes back with the paint not all beat up. The one's I've seen offered over and over again on Ebay soon become stale to the market. There's nothing like buying a fresh car that goes under the radar. Other important things one needs to know about these cars before before purchasing them? (documents, owner histories, etc.). The GMMG registry website has been a big help too.
I'd probably prefer an automatic as I've had more than enough fun with 6 speeds over the years and just want to enjoy cruising the car, not shift it at every stop light and stop sign all over town. And let's face it, few us can shift a 6 speed faster than an automatic shifts itself. The automatic also lets me wife enjoy the car as there is no hope she will ever learn to competently drive a stick. The downside is that there are virtually no available automatics in the GMMG cars (about 20 cars out of 550 built?). The Camaro Hot Rod Edition cars have over a dozen of them but I can't get past the lack of an SS hood on that car. I don't believe any Berger's came with automatics unless they were altered after the factory. Certainly no automatic DEI's. Maybe 3 Tom Henry's. Not sure of any in the Blackbirds. And there are very few choices of automatics in the other GMMG cars, and they often bring more money. It probably brings me right back to considering 6 speed cars. Considering some of the issues with the T56's (weak synchros, forks, rattles, etc.), the 380 hp engines and 3.73 gears only add to those concerns. Will these 6 speeds and clutches get the same life as they would behind 345 hp / 3.42 geared cars? You wouldn't think so. Do these 380 hp require more tuning/maintenance/attention than your typical OEM SS/WS6?
The 3 Tom Henry automatics are supposedly rated for only 360 hp. That doesn't make any sense to have the automatic rated 20 hp less on this model. But for the extra expense that a GMMG car costs, 360 hp doesn't cut it in my book. Or are these cars purposely underrated? What did TH and GMMG do to kill 20 hp? I've not seen such a disparity between automatic vs. manual on any other car equipped with the same engine.
My other questions have to do with mileage and number of owners. Is there some point where a GMMG car is too well-traveled (say 30,000 miles and 3 or more owners) where the demand for them dries up and one should look elsewhere? From my brief search over the past few months it would seem that the majority of the GMMG cars have between 5,000-30,000 miles with a pretty significant percentage well under 10,000 miles. With so many of these ultra low mileage cars basically sitting for the past 12-14 years that leads to leaky seals in the engine, trans, cooling, and AC systems. A car driven at least once every month or seems like a better bet....even if that means 20,000 miles rather than 2,000 miles.
From gauging GMMG prices from back in 2007-2009 it actually seems that the typical Berger and TH cars cost every bit as much as they did back then, if not more. I see examples of some low mileage cars selling for low $20's five to seven years ago. The cars bringing low $20's today are higher mileage ones (ie >30,000 miles). Maybe some of the upper end/low mileage cars have come down in price, but the average one seems to cost more. The DEI's seem to have come down the most. There's one not located far from me with only 97 miles. I'd be wary of owning such a car knowing I can't put any miles on it and what about it's mechanical condition from sitting stone cold for essentially 13 years? Other than that, the price on that one seems very reasonable. For someone with a stable of multiple cars, equalizing out the mileage is less of an issue.
I see the Year One PR-1 Blackbird offered from the UK at $32K. Would be a good deal if the car were in the US. I'm not going to be the one to ship it back and "hope" it comes back with the paint not all beat up. The one's I've seen offered over and over again on Ebay soon become stale to the market. There's nothing like buying a fresh car that goes under the radar. Other important things one needs to know about these cars before before purchasing them? (documents, owner histories, etc.). The GMMG registry website has been a big help too.
Last edited by Firebrian; 07-09-2014 at 06:23 PM.
07-17-2014, 03:39 PM
#4
TECH Enthusiast
Thread Starter
That's a very nice Berger. On Ebay is a very nice 2002 Anniv PE edition GMMG automatic convertible...that was sold new at Berger. If you're looking for an automatic this is about the only way you'll run into one. I know they rated these automatics at 350 hp but is there any "unofficial" documentation that suggests they were 380 hp just like the other GMMG cars? That's one of the downsides of the base PE automatics. You could get a factory stock 345 hp just out of regular SS Camaro with the performance exhaust and black bird lid. Did GMMG actually tweak these automatics to give them less real hp than the manuals?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Chevrolet-Camaro-SS-GMMG-Convertible-Berger-2002-Camaro-SS-35th-Anniversary-Berger-GMMG-9-of-50-only-/171386796523?forcerrptr=true&hash=item27e772f9eb&item=171386796523&pt=US_Cars_Trucks
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Chevrolet-Camaro-SS-GMMG-Convertible-Berger-2002-Camaro-SS-35th-Anniversary-Berger-GMMG-9-of-50-only-/171386796523?forcerrptr=true&hash=item27e772f9eb&item=171386796523&pt=US_Cars_Trucks
07-29-2014, 03:32 PM
#6
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Thread Starter
