Charlie Hustle

iTrader: (8)

I will be installing a 5 channel amp into my 2002 Ford Escape, and was wondering if there would be a noticeable difference if I tapped into the existing speaker wires behind the head unit, or I ran new wires to each speaker. The reason I ask, is because from what I've researched so far, the door jams have a "molex" and it's a pain in the *** to open them up and run new speaker wire. I've also seen people drill new holes thru the door jam, and I would like to avoid that route as well. So basically what I would like to know is, will I lose any power/sound quality by running speaker wires from the amp to the back of the head unit and tapping in there? I am attaching links to the Kenwood amp, and to the Focal 5x7's that will be installed in the front door. (Cheap Pioneers in the back seat) Thanks in advance.

Charlie

http://www.crutchfield.com/p_113KAC7...AC-7005PS.html

http://www.crutchfield.com/p_091570A...s_570&skipvs=T

codyvette

iTrader: (24)

Wire size and quality along with connection quality will always influence sound quality. With today's head units I really don't see the need for an amp on your mids and highs unless you are playing music for Helen Keller. If you are insistent on adding a mid/high amp then you may want to go ahead and add the quality speaker wire.

Turbo_Stang

iTrader: (3)

Alot of times on older vehicles the connections at the speakers become corroded or weathered since alot of times the inside of the door isn't sealed up like it once was.Since you are changing the speakers out anyway you will be able to see if the wire has been damaged or not.That will tell you if you have to rewire for a amp.Other than that the factory wiring will do for your 5x7's

jmilz28

iTrader: (13)

Depends how good and thick the factory wires are. It's always preferred to use fresh wires from the amp to your new speakers. It will always be an improvement to run new wires. Here's the breakdown or end result vs. the PITA of new wire runs. If you are only using head unit power and your new speakers are efficient, I would use the OEM wiring. If you are using separate amps with reasonable output and good, aftermarket speakers, I would run new wires.

Charlie Hustle

iTrader: (8)

I have already upgraded all 4 factory speakers, to Pioneer 5x7's. The stock wiring is fine and there is no corrosion or tears. I plan to upgrade the front 2 speakers as 1 of them has gone out. Thank you for the info.

Charlie Hustle

iTrader: (8)

They factory wires are not thick by any means, but they are in very good condition considering the age of the vehicle. Again, I've ran new wires to speakers in the past in my Trans Am, but it was very easy as there was no molex in the door jam, just a rubber grommet. I honestly don't know if I'm up to opening up the plastic molex and drill holes thru it, if the factory wiring will suffice. Thanks again to everyone who responded.


Charlie

00pooterSS

iTrader: (40)

You're only going to be pushing about 40-50 watts to them RMS (I assume you will anyway) and the wiring should be around 18 gauge. I am pushing over 1k through 10 gauge and it is above the recommended size, 12 gauge is supposed to be enough. Long story short, I think you're good leaving the stock wiring..

If you plan on doing over 50 watts and the wire is smaller than 18 I would upgrade it to 18 or 16. Anything more would be overkill unless you are going for triple digit power to them.

I should actaully ask these questions before advising you....
What is the RMS of the amp you will be using?
What brand?
What ohms is that RMS at and are you running that ohm load?
Are you going to be playing it as loud as it goes for long periods, or are you going more for quality at a mid level?

Charlie Hustle

iTrader: (8)

This is what I was looking for. I attached a link to the amp and speakers in my original post. The Kenwood Amp is 5 channel and puts out 40 watts rms per channel at 4 ohms to the 4 main speakers. The speakers handle 60 watts rms each. (Obvious the sub is a lot more, but that will be very thick 12 gauge wire)

I'm going for quality at mid level, but would be nice to have the power on hand whenever I want to crank it, especially with the windows down on road trips, or on the way to the beach etc.

jmilz28

iTrader: (13)

Factory wiring will be fine. Would dedicated wiring be better? Yes but you'd never know unless you set them up and did a back to back, A/B comparison. If you plan on adding more power to the front stage later, I'd run new cables. Otherwise, make it easier on yourself and use factory.

Charlie Hustle

iTrader: (8)

Thanks again everyone for the replies.


How bout part 2 to this question. The amp is 5 channel, and provides 40 watts rms to all 4 of the highs, or if you bridge just the front 2, it will push 100 rms to those 2. Would you amp all 4, or keep the rear 2 pushed from the head unit, and amp just the 2 front speakers? (which are going to be the higher end Focals)

jmilz28

iTrader: (13)

I would bridge and give the fronts more power, no question, unless you regularly have people in the back and care about their audio experience as much as yours. In this case, I would *definitely* run dedicated new wires for the front and use OEM wiring for the rear fill off the HU. Having the extra power in the front stage will be a revelation to you, makes it easier to blend the sub as well. No brainer, new wires in the front and bridging your front stage will be a vastly superior sound.

Charlie Hustle

iTrader: (8)

Thank you for this info, you are the first person to answer that question. I hardly ever have anyone in the backseat other than my 4 year old son, and when he's back there I have the volume very low. Do you happen to have any experience running new wire thru the molex in the door jams? I've never seen or had to do it before, in the vehicle I've run new wire to, it was just a matter of removing the rubber grommet and running the new wires from the cabin to the door jam. That's the only thing that's holding me back from running new wire throughout. Thanks again for the info, I'm really looking forward to getting everything hooked up and hearing how good these Focals sound.

jmilz28

iTrader: (13)

Yes, a good bit. Whatever flavor of harness is running through the door jamb, I usually run the wire through the same conduit. Cut a small hole through the grommet or gasket and run it right next to the OE wires, there is usually enough room. Whatever hole you cut/punch in the gasket or grommet, just seal it up with your favorite kind of pookie. Main thing is to protect the wires wherever they run over a metal edge. If you make the run look nice, that will usually serve to protect it also. If there is no conduit or it's borderline, add new. The PVC type split loom is fine but you can always run braided loom for some extra clean detailing. Running the wires and cables is usually my biggest PITA but it makes a difference in the sound and longevity of a working system. 100wpc really demands dedicated wire, I'd run 12awg if it were me. More copper is always better.

00pooterSS

iTrader: (40)

Jmil, what about cutting the old wire under the dash, attaching the new wire to the old under the dash then reach in the door and pull the old wiring and let it pull the new through the boot? I've never tried it but it seems like it would work well. I would line up the wiring with about 2" overlapping and wrap a bunch of electrical tape around the two to make a smooth transition and pull.

Also the boot comes out of the door and door jamb pretty easy, usually you just pull it away from the jamb and it will detach and you will see all the wiring, then you could detach the other side and when you see it come out you could feed it into the door and feed it into the cab and then reconnect the boot at the door and jamb instead of cutting.

I agree with Jmil in everything he said, except (and it's not that I disagree) I don't have experience with running the fronts at 2-3 times the power level. I have always ran mine equal to create a more filling sound (fill the whole car equally).

Charlie Hustle, go to Knu Konceptz for your wiring, they sell OFC wiring for a great cost. They also sell a ton of other audio wiring and accessories that work really well and are great priced. I have a bunch of their stuff in my truck. OFC=oxygen free copper, it's 100% copper, not copper plated aluminum, or straight aluminum like lower cost wiring.

You'll see wiring out there called CCA, that's copper clad aluminum, and that's not what you want if you're going for quality and are scrutinous of the performance.

00pooterSS

iTrader: (40)

Charlie, your speakers are 60RMS, if you bridge them you will be going over that by a decent amount, right? And they are 2-60 watts RMS rated, so that 60 is the max RMS.

Hold on, I just re read what you wrote, if you bridge the front two it will put out 100 RMS to those 2, well then they will split the 100 down to 50 each, if that's the case I think I would run all 4 at 40. I have far more experience with subs and wiring and amps than I do with amplified and optimized front stages, I have done them and I know about them but as far as trying multiple different variations back to back for comparisons, I may be lacking in relation to Jmil, so don't take what I say on that as indisputable.

So if it's 100 RMS to each front channel, then you are really rolling the dice, if it's 100 split then I don't know if I personally would want a large variation in sound front to rear to get 10 more watts.

Chime in on this Jmil

jmilz28

iTrader: (13)

Pooter is giving very reasonable pointers. I will argue for a front bias, certainly in music but even in movies to a lesser degree. Just look at high end setups on both and see where the drivers and the power are. This is really a matter of preference or priorities. I developed a liking for a strong front stage years ago. The same jump you get from adding a sub, you almost get that again when you give your front stage some good drivers and some power. Those are some pricy Focals, I wouldn't hesitate to give them 100wpc at all. Just make sure you start tuning with your EQ flat and no bass boost or loudness, which is proper practice anyway. You'll be surprised how a little headroom will really help you and make a more balanced sound while still having bass you can feel. Will it sound great running 40 to all four corners? Sure it will. Will it sound noticeably better bridging the fronts and just using the deck for rear fill? My experience has always been yes, regardless of the platform. Now, if your kid will be watching movies in the back through the bluetooth a lot, now you've got a case for using the amp in 40x4. If it's mostly music from the front, I think the way I suggested will be a useful upgrade and one you'll notice. How will you notice? You'll notice it mostly in the midbass authority, being able to crank it up while being more resistant to bottoming your 5x7s with distortion, and not being overwhelmed with bass and having to constantly fiddle with your sub level. The front is where you spend most of your time so prioritizing the front stage is natural for most and many guys don't even use rear fill at all. It's a preference thing to a degree with an eye on how you will realistically make use of your system. Realize it's usually distortion, not power, that kills speakers. Driving the speaker where it isn't happy in the frequency range is much more damaging than transient thermal peaks. Keeping distortion out with some extra power on tap actually sounds better with only a little extra care on the tuning. Like I said, no EQ, loudness, or bass boost, especially the last two. Those are crutches, and EQ should just level out profiles of your cabin. Lots of info...sorry. Be careful and have fun, no wrong answers as long as it sounds good to you, doesn't pop speakers, and lasts a long time.

jmilz28

iTrader: (13)

And yes, the amp will do 40x4 or 100x2 on the satellite channels. What you end up with is either 40x4+500x1 (ish) or 100x2 on the front, 15x2 on the rear, and 500x1 on the sub. I've had a couple cars with similar arrangements that I tried similar choices and always ended up liking the front bias. It's just easier to get louder with less distortion. I like clean and more power = less distortion = cleaner sound (usually). Bass should be non or omni directional. With a strong front stage, I have found it easier to get more midbass which "brings the bass up front" and makes it easier to blend with the sub bass. Depending on the kind of music you listen to, this may make a tiny difference to you or a huge one once you hear it. I like some rear fill but only enough to fill spatial holes, not pull my attention to the rear. I like to feel like I am sitting in between two speakers set slightly in front of me. At a concert, the music is usually in front of me so that's kinda what I aim for. Like I said, it's a taste thing to a degree. Will you hear a difference in what I am suggesting? Definitely. Will you prefer it? Probably/maybe but won't know until you try it! (Yes, this hobby was a problem for me once upon a year ) I hope that is helpful and I do think pooter is giving good advice as well.

00pooterSS

iTrader: (40)

I'm glad I posted in here, I'm even learning. I'm having a lot of trouble getting my front stage to blend well with the subs and just overall tuning in general. I am currently integrating the factory bose amp and just can't seem to get it right. I have infinity reference 6.5" in the front (the new model if it matters) Memphis audio 4"x6" in the rear doors. What's your take on that setup? Have you ever setup a truck like mine and integrated the bose amp? The gain is crazy high on it, and it's annoying as **** so I have to use bass boost and loudness etc because my head unit is a 2v pre out.. Also I can't get the 1k ish midrange sound down, if I just turn down my 800, 1k or 2.5k then I loose too much mid and it all goes to hell.

All that being said, do you know if it would sound better if I drove the front stage off radio power only?

jmilz28

iTrader: (13)

I would dump the Blose amp. I use the one in my V as a signal and center channel only. You're going to have a hard time making it sound right, too much signal fiddling between the HU and amp. I think you're only sensible route is a decent HU and amp. If your Infinity's aren't components, I'd upgrade those and give them some power. The front doors of those trucks are easy to install comps. I've become quite taken with HUs and amps where I can run active in the front and just buy separate drivers from Parts Express.

jmilz28

iTrader: (13)

I enjoy this series of PPI amps, very affordable but flexible crossover sections. Not my old high end tastes but it comes out nice. http://www.ebay.com/itm/PRECISION-PO...8AAOSweWVXc0cK