blkbowtie98

Whats it worth?
1998 Camaro Z28 Convertible 6 speed with 12k miles.
All stock, cloth interior, chrome 16" wheels. White with black top.

Firebrian

I'd say in the upper half of the $12K to $14K range (needs stuff to doesn't need anything). That seems cheap at first but it is a 1998 and not a 2002 (16yr old car). And it's not an SS. 2002 SS verts with that low a mileage can be bought for around $17K to $19K. Subtract 4 model years and the SS option (about $5K). I think '98's are hard to come by esp. with a 6 speed....most of them have been trashed. I like white because the paint chips don't show up like they do on darker colors. A lot depends on how sweet it is, how well kept and maintained it was, # of owners, totally stock, needs nothing, etc. When dealers have these cars with 45K miles they ask crazy numbers like $14K to $16K. A number of similar cars with real low mileage are on autotrader.com and ask prices are sometimes in the upper teens and even $20's....and the cars just don't sell. If a dealer has this car they're probably asking mid to upper teens. Doesn't mean they get it.

Here's a 2002 Z28 with a BIN of $17,995. The ask price is so high that the bidders aren't taking this car seriously. It didn't even make it to $10,000 before they gave up. It's a fairly scarce color as well (Monterey Maroon metallic - only 133 Z28 verts in 2002). Whatever your 1998 is worth I'd say this 2002 is worth at least $3K and maybe $4K/$5K more....assuming identical condition. I'd figure this one in the $14K to $16K range though as a buyer I'd be out above $14K as there are too many other good choices in SS's and WS6's at those levels.


http://www.ebay.com/itm/Chevrolet-Camaro-Z28-2002-Chevrolet-Camaro-Z28-Convertible-2-Door-5-7L-/111392788465?forcerrptr=true&hash=item19ef870ff1&item=111392788465&pt=US_Cars_Trucks

NC01TA

It's all in the details blkbowtie98 as has been written time and time again. Clean title? Carfax OK? One owner or 3 owners? Garage kept or left outside for several winters?? Maintenance records? Need tires or anything for that matter? Such a difference in price if there are 'issues'. Please fill us in so we can accurately give you some price figures.
I certainly would pay top $$ with a premium if the car was a truly excellent, 'stock', one owner, garage kept with new quality tires and full maintenance records. On the other hand I may not even consider this car if it had 3 or 4 owners (with the last owner being a young driver learning to shift), had an accident history, and it was left outside all the time with some convertible top issues. You can see where I am coming from. Details!!

Firebrian

Details are all great stuff to know, no arguments there. The more the better. By definition, I assume that any of these F bodies that have made it to 2014 with under 15K miles are in superb condition and have for the most part been lovingly cared for by their owners, stored indoors, not beat on, routinely serviced, avoided accidents and parking lot dents, fully paid for with clean title, avoided snow and probably rain as well, etc. A 12K mile car should generally be superb. 70% of these cars are probably excellent and have had 1 or 2 owners. 15% might be even better than excellent. And then you have the final 15% where the owners were not as fastidious as the others and the cars do have some minor warts requiring price adjustments. If you're looking at a bottom 15% car that's not up to snuff it's readily apparent it doesn't quite look as new as it should. But most of these survived until today by purposely being preserved and driven sparingly by their owners. There will always be exceptions though.

Here's a 1 of 45 2002 Brickyard SS convertible with only 1,750 miles. Another data point to compare against your 1998 Z28. The seller is starting the bidding at $18K and yet to get a bid. I realize many don't like the graphics on these but I don't mind them....as long as they aren't peeling or flaking off. An Anniversary car (of which there are hundreds) with this low a mileage would run you $22K and up. I'm no expert on these specialty "track" cars but $18K starting price for any 1,750 mile 2002 SS vert seems very reasonable. This ought to be worth more than non-anniv convertible and be competitive with the anniv cars. Considering it cost $35K new, paying about half of that price today for under 2K miles seems like good value. You could not do that with a WS6 vert or SS anniv vert. Catch 22....if you do something stupid on the highway in your "Brickyard" it's not going to be very hard to figure out it if that was you....lol.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Chevrolet-Camaro-Z28-SS-Convertible-2-Door-2002-Brickyard-400-Camaro-/291182308135?forcerrptr=true&hash=item43cbd16b27&item=291182308135&pt=US_Cars_Trucks

blkbowtie98

Its a one owner clean carfax. I just feel like every car Im interested in is overpriced and they arent selling or coming off their prices. This car for example is $15k. I have a hard time paying that much for a 98 Z. That should be more like 02 SS pricing.

Firebrian

You can't find an 2002 SS convertible with 12K miles for $15K. You'd have a very hard time finding a coupe at that price. It could take you a few months to a year for one to pop up close enough to you where going to see it is not a hassle. You have to pass on 10 to 20 cars to find 1 fairly priced to sell. And odds are it will be from a motivated private party who knows what they can really sell it for....not what they wish it would bring. Offer them $12K to $13K for that '98 Z. As summer winds down so will the price. If they still have it by late September they will be itching to dump it near cost rather than risk owning it all winter. If they are asking for $15K they really aren't all that far away and $14K is close to what they would take today. I'd bet at $13,500-$14,000 they are still profitable in that car. Use the low book values to support your offer and let them dance around to prove otherwise. It's still a 16 year old car that will need things over time. AC leaks and tires will run you $1,000 min. if not already addressed.

In checking on line I see the car. Carfax shows the car in dealer inventory on April 4th. They've had this beautiful car for 3 prime summer months and still own it. That's in your favor. I'd bet they were asking more than $15K when they first got it. Original shifter and ball still on the car, a good sign. The tires do look original. This dealer doesn't have any older used cars (pre-2009) under 50K miles except this hot rod. So this is not something they are used to playing with, esp. a quite ancient 1998. This is a fluke. They don't have a single V8 sports car in inventory of any year, not even an older Vette. This is a GMC-Buick dealership? This is to your advantage imo. They are asking $14,995 nationally. So they have room to come down believe me. If the first salesman doesn't want to work with you go see the general manager or even the owner. Show them a $2K wad of cash for a deposit. They've had the car for too long already tying up $9K-$12K or so. Hopefully, it's not kept on their indoor show room floor suggesting they just love it. Was this car serviced with them from day one? Have them show you the GM service history as it might high light some issues that aren't on the Carfax. Cry about the 16 year old tires and AC system that's sure to spring a leak once you buy it. Are they going to sell this with 16 yr old tires? Odds are they recharged a leaky AC system just after they got it. Get back in there and do some wheeling and dealing with them to help them out. These guys sell trucks, SUV's, and Caddies, not Z28's.

Fwiw I just looked across the entire country for any '98'-02 LS1 6 speed with <15K miles and <$20,000. There are only 10 cars that qualify. This one is actually one of the most competitively priced of that group and certainly the cheapest convertible. $14K is not a bad price if the car needs nothing. $13K to $13.5K if you have to factor in tires, AC, fluid changes. My own '99 SS coupe fits into this group and I'd happily sell it for near $14K. The black vert is a fair match for my car. So $13.5K to $14.5K car is not unreasonable for the vert. Of course, you'd wish you could have found the seller of that car BEFORE they traded it in for too little. Offer $14K and have them fully change all the fluids and put new tires on the car, and give you a 3 month guarantee/$300 repair coupon if the AC fails or leaks.

In that group of 10 cars is a 1-owner, 12K mile, 2002 NBM WS6 for $18.5K. That's a much better buy than a $15K 1998 Z28 vert. Not such a bad deal. In looking at all 32 cars under 30,000 miles and <$20K, these 2 are the best deals imo. And those are only asking prices.

NC01TA

Totally agree ^.
Get in there and start negotiations. A new set of tires ($600+) is in your future so negotiate that to death, but don't let the dealer include a new set of 'made in China' tires. Buy what you want.
This car can be yours for the right amount of money. $14,000 is NOT overpaying for an ultra low mileage 6 speed LS1 'vert IF the car is truly excellent. If you think it is to high, especially from a dealer, you are just in denial. Book prices don't count with ultra low mileage vehicles. It's reality. Do some research. Your answer to my 'details' question is still seriously lacking. "One owner, clean Carfax" is all you know about the car?? I know it's tough at dealerships but I hope you make the effort. Ask to speak to the original owner. Some previous owners don't mind at all. I sure don't. Good luck!!

Firebrian

This car only books from $7K to $9.5K in excellent condition in NADA and KBB. That's absurd. Just for giggles I did some comparisons on the mileage. If this car had 92K miles in "excellent" condition per NADA, it's value would be only $1,000 less than if it had 12K miles. Totally ridiculous. KBB is a bit more generous. It shows a $3K difference between 92K vs. 12K miles. While not ridiculous, even that is woefully short. The number is at least $5K. With 42K miles KBB only shows a $1K drop vs. a 12K mile car. That's absurd. Bottom line is that the odds are good the dealership picked up this car at no more $10K to $12K or more than likely under $10K. They have lots of room for profit/negotiation. Edmunds list the car at $5,788 for dealer retail with a $602 price adjustment for the low miles...beyond stupid.

MSRP new for the vert was $27,450. And 50% of new price for a 12K mile excellent car is often a reasonable data point ($13,725). I was surprised that these brought $7K more than a coupe. That suggests today a $3K min difference vs. vert/coupe on a very low mileage car. As the miles get up there that difference shrinks. I've always figured it at $2K. Would be nice to be in contact with the original owner to find out how they cared for the car, etc. But the dealership knows if they give you that information you will find out what they received in trade-in value towards their new car. If you get that information it's a plus for you. And if those guys "ripped" the previous owners on this car, they surely wouldn't want that to get back to them....as they'd never return to that dealership again. I do believe they "stole" the car and therefore can afford to sit on it all summer if they have to....probably looking to hit a HOME RUN on this car. They probably figure they can't lose since it could be readily wholesaled at $10K-$12K.

http://www.kbb.com/chevrolet/camaro/...&mileage=42800

NC01TA

Another excellent post ^ Firebrian.
I've punched in similar mileage numbers and it is indeed laughable at the thin spread they have between low and high mileage cars. It's always been that way unfortunately.
I will say this about Kelley Blue Book. They do respond to proven documentation if you are persistent. I did that for two years when I was into air cooled 911's and owned one. Their prices were so 'out of touch' for 911's that I started an entire dialog with them over a two year period. They actually adjusted their pricing based on real world transactions. It helped that I had a dealer assist with pricing. KBB actually jumped the prices approximately $10,000 compared with what they previously had. (ex: lower mileage 1996 911 for $20,000 was jumped to $30,000). While I received many thanks from the owners of similar 911 models I was also told I was way off by those owners that had high mileage so-so examples, saying the same negative things that we see posted right here on LS1Tech and every other car site. Statements such as these, "These cars aren't worth that kind of money. There's a sucker born every minute." It's always from the owners of crappy examples that are displeased with their own experiences. They probably never drove a pristine example but somehow 'they know'. I have contemplated doing the same thing with KBB for these ultra low mileage F-bodies but just never wanted to make the effort again after the mixed response.
I also appreciate your responses 9 times out of 10. It's nice to hear a commonly held viewpoint that only 'collectors' or serious car people seem to grasp. Helping the younger crowd (and new folks) here in this section is definitely worth the effort. It's just a matter of who listens. My mailbox is full of 'thank you' messages over the years so I'll continue here for as long as the help is appreciated. The demographic is certainly changing though. It is very noticeable compared to 5 years ago. I doubt I will be posting here in another 5 years but who knows? I didn't imagine owning F-bodies for 18 years either. Starting year 19 right now in July.

Firebrian

It's great that NC01TA continues to bring all his experiences to the table to help everyone figure out what these cars are potentially worth. A little bit of due diligence up front and you won't sell too cheap or pay way too much. There are very few cars where you have to be in a hurry to buy them right now or the "bargain" is lost forever. There's almost always another just around the corner. And since the price of these F bodies are still generally depreciating, waiting usually means getting in for a lower price.

blkbowtie98

Im just trying to find the best value.

blkbowtie98

I could have a 2002 SS with 22k miles for the same price but the owner is retired and on vacation for a year so that wont work but its a good price comparison

Firebrian

That's a much better value. And in a year when that guy comes back it will cost you less money as well. The best deals invariably show up from Sept to March in the colder weather states. Getting a car home before the first snow fall and road sandings is ideal. Sometime in the next 2-5 months something hard to refuse will pop up near you. Just be ready to go if/when that happens.

When I was looking hard in 2011 the best car was the very first one I considered. But, I got cold feet because it had been on Ebay 3X in the space of 6-8 weeks and not sold any of those times. It was only 50 miles from me too...dealer owned and they wanted it gone. The reserve was lowered to low $12K's and it still didn't sell. It was a 2000 Firehawk formula 6 speed hardtop with 28K miles (silver or pewter). I knew the production #'s were real low - 1 of 6 or so built (15 total 6 speeds in these two colors and only 17 FH formula 6 spd hardtops for that year). The only reason I dragged my feet is that it wasn't a TTop car which apparently "everyone" loved. I thought hardtops in drab colors were a big negative at that time. And it didn't have the big fancy spoiler of the WS6's. But....that was the right car at the right time at the RIGHT price. There were dozens of high quality photos in the Ebay auctions showing how nice the car was. For whatever reason formula's were just not very popular at that time. A 2002 WS6 with that same mileage was worth around $16.5K at that time. I wish at the time I had been here to ask NC01TA about the Firehawk.

blkbowtie98

The white 98 Z is nice but its cloth and plain. I feel like an SS has much more appeal. I want to buy asap so I cant wait a year for the one thats a good deal. If I bought the Z, by the time I put wheels on it and possibly leather, I might as well have bought an SS for more money. I also found a 99 WS6 with 66k for $12k but dont think its as nice condition wise.

Firebrian

At 66K that car will soon cross the "70K" and gone marker. 2 years ago I was considering a '99 WS6 with 24K miles from a mid-west dealer. It was $14,500 or so. They had started off in the $16's. So $12K today for 66K miles is just not a great deal. Take advantage of the cheap miles that the price guides tend to give you and get something in the under 40K mileage range. The lower the better down to around 8K-12K where any lower and the premiums can start to become obscene and not worth it if your intent is to drive the car.

My local dealer had a 74K mile 2000 SS vert 2 years ago and wanted $12K for it. As winter approached it went lower and lower, even went on Ebay to no avail. They offered it to me at $9500 which was still not a good deal. I think they finally dumped it for around $9K. That car had the cold engine piston/valve train slap and a rear end whine. One quarter panel had been re-painted/worked. I'm sure there were more issues hiding in that car that weren't so obvious. I spent $2500 more and got a 12K mile SS coupe. That 62K mile difference will come in handy as time goes on. Had I waited a few more months, I'd have been able to get the car I was really after, a 12K mile 2001 WS6 NBM vert for $17.5K located only 40 miles from me. I had no clue the seller was going to cave in and drop another $1,500. They seemed very firm at $19K when I first talked to them. Patience and opportunity are the watch words.

blkbowtie98

Is a 2002 anniversary with 20k miles for $18k a better buy?

Firebrian

I figure an SS anniv at most $1.5K to $2K more than a regular 2002 SS. $18K seems a bit strong for a coupe w/20K miles though not unreasonable. That would be an ok buy for a convertible. I'd probably prefer one at $17K maybe even $16's though I don't see any priced under $17.8K on auto trader. The anniv cars are very available and usually quite nice for the mileage.