Lets build a mid-engine Trans Am - need advice
12-10-2008, 08:14 AM
#161
I was going to raise the floor 3", but decided against it.
If you only add air bags, the front will go down 3" from stock. If you add tubs and modify the suspension you can go down an extra 2" which will put the k-member on the ground. If you then raise the engine and trans 2" you can get the TA's sideskirts to touch the ground. That's where I'm stopping.
Then of course the suspension will be modded to allow dropping the height 8". So when the car is fully dropped, a stock k-member would normally be 2" under the ground. Well, that goes for anything below the sideskirt level. You just have to raise all that crap up higher.
I'm building the worlds lowest Trans Am in case you didn't know.
Last edited by JasonWW; 12-10-2008 at 08:35 AM.
12-11-2008, 01:17 AM
#162
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So here is my Question. Why are you doing all this? I think you have lost sight of the "Mid-Engine" aspect.
It is simple: You need to base the f-Body on a Pantera Platform with direct input from the trans into the rear end.
You will have to stretch the F-body frame and hope you have some kind of resource as far as Structural integrity for re-framing.
The idea is cool However you will still need to stretch the rear end of the TA and Isolate the Cockpit from the rear seats all the way back.
If you are going to do this keep it as simple as possible and as efficient as possible.
It is simple: You need to base the f-Body on a Pantera Platform with direct input from the trans into the rear end.
You will have to stretch the F-body frame and hope you have some kind of resource as far as Structural integrity for re-framing.
The idea is cool However you will still need to stretch the rear end of the TA and Isolate the Cockpit from the rear seats all the way back.
If you are going to do this keep it as simple as possible and as efficient as possible.
The transmission is a widley available ZF transmission, a bit expensive new, but not to bad used.
The transmission has been used in DeTomaso Pantera family, GT40, and early Lambos. And probarbly more, that I havent heard of yet.
The only thing is the bellhousing, that need to be adapted, or purched correctly.
If you make this build, it will be awsome.
12-11-2008, 03:25 AM
#163
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If you just going to raise the k member up but want to keep the engine ruffly in the same stop with out cutting things up to much, getting a dry sump oil pan may be a good bet. You could raise the k-member a 1" or more, with out moving the engine up as much. you could also redesign the k-member then, making it wide and flat for another 1" or so i would guess.
This would be cheaper then cutting glass and making bulges on things.
http://www.drysump.com/pan1a.htm
good luck with your project
This would be cheaper then cutting glass and making bulges on things.
http://www.drysump.com/pan1a.htm
good luck with your project
12-11-2008, 04:21 AM
#164
I must agree with Eroc, the transmission used in Pantera, it ideal for a mid engine conversion.
The transmission is a widley available ZF transmission, a bit expensive new, but not to bad used.
The transmission has been used in DeTomaso Pantera family, GT40, and early Lambos. And probarbly more, that I havent heard of yet.
The only thing is the bellhousing, that need to be adapted, or purched correctly.
If you make this build, it will be awsome.
The transmission is a widley available ZF transmission, a bit expensive new, but not to bad used.
The transmission has been used in DeTomaso Pantera family, GT40, and early Lambos. And probarbly more, that I havent heard of yet.
The only thing is the bellhousing, that need to be adapted, or purched correctly.
If you make this build, it will be awsome.
Besides the ZF, there is the similar Porsche G50 and 915 plus a few from Audi, ect... They would be fine if you want to push the rear tires to the back of the car.
I kind of like the rear wheels where they are. That's just my opinion. So I'd go with a transverse mount like the Fiero. Slap a G6 6 speed manual or the Getrag built 5 speed later Fieros had and then get the adapter and clutch from V8 Archie. Forget using that pos LS4 auto.
For the time being, though, I'm going to try and keep the engine up front to make my super low car.
Last edited by JasonWW; 12-11-2008 at 04:52 AM.
12-11-2008, 04:31 AM
#165
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The ZF gearbox has the shaft output closer to the engine than any other, almost right after the bellhousing. If you take a closer look at the picture above, you see what I mean.
12-11-2008, 04:32 AM
#166
If you just going to raise the k member up but want to keep the engine ruffly in the same stop with out cutting things up to much, getting a dry sump oil pan may be a good bet. You could raise the k-member a 1" or more, with out moving the engine up as much. you could also redesign the k-member then, making it wide and flat for another 1" or so i would guess.
This would be cheaper then cutting glass and making bulges on things.
http://www.drysump.com/pan1a.htm
good luck with your project
This would be cheaper then cutting glass and making bulges on things.
http://www.drysump.com/pan1a.htm
good luck with your project
2. You can raise the engine 5" before you have to cut any glass.
3. The transmission has to come up too.
4. Don't forget that the steering rack is almost touching the oil pan. The rack needs to go up along with the engine and k-member. If you change the rack position in relation to the lower control arms, you'll get wicked bumpsteer.
Thanks for the support, though. I need it.
Last edited by JasonWW; 12-11-2008 at 04:54 AM.
12-11-2008, 03:47 PM
#168
Jason,,
I think your out of your mind,,,,, but a little insanitfy isn;t always bad.
I don't know if you ever saw the thread in the hybrid section... Mr Kinsler built himself a real hot rod....
https://ls1tech.com/forums/conversio...treet-car.html
I suspect you could do something like this and then just drape the body.
Or do what I did and get a GTM.
Good Luck
I think your out of your mind,,,,, but a little insanitfy isn;t always bad.
I don't know if you ever saw the thread in the hybrid section... Mr Kinsler built himself a real hot rod....
https://ls1tech.com/forums/conversio...treet-car.html
I suspect you could do something like this and then just drape the body.
Or do what I did and get a GTM.
Good Luck
12-11-2008, 05:00 PM
#169
I have pictures of that car for my tube frame stuff.
I don't know why people think you can drop a unibody body onto a tube frame. It's not that simple. If you want the door gaps to be right, keep the stock center console, seats, dash, etc... Then you have to build the frame within the existing body.
It's not like building a truck or a muscle car where the body and suspension are built seperately and then put together.
Besides, this post would probably fit my unibody thread better than this one.
Maybe if I have a bit more money for my next project I'll take a stock TA and only do the mid engine conversion.
I don't know why people think you can drop a unibody body onto a tube frame. It's not that simple. If you want the door gaps to be right, keep the stock center console, seats, dash, etc... Then you have to build the frame within the existing body.
It's not like building a truck or a muscle car where the body and suspension are built seperately and then put together.
Besides, this post would probably fit my unibody thread better than this one.
Maybe if I have a bit more money for my next project I'll take a stock TA and only do the mid engine conversion.
Last edited by JasonWW; 12-11-2008 at 05:12 PM.
12-12-2008, 08:49 AM
#170
Geez, now you guys got me thinking about the midengine setup again. There seems to be just enough room for the transverse mount without altering the wheelbase or having to move the seats forward. It's pretty tight, but should fit.
Reasons:
1. Cool factor is very high.
2. Never been done to this model of car (I think).
3. Solves my exhaust routing issues.
4. I can put my subwoofer box under the hood.
5. I don't have any clear way to mod the AC unit to clear the higher tunnel.
6. I can keep both my windshield wipers.
7. Brand new G6 6 speeds are very cheap and appear stronger than their ratings.
8. Cool factor is very high.
The one downside is that V8 Archie is the only company I know that makes the LS1 to G6 adapter. They didn't respond to my last 2 emails so I don't know if I can buy the adaptor seperate from their Fiero swap kit. That kit runs $3500, in case you were wondering.
The adapter is about a 2" thick chunk of aluminum that mates the bolt patterns together. Fairly simple. The starter mounts where the oil filter would fit because the output shaft runs along the passenger side of the block.
They say the adapter plate, starter mount, starter, flywheel and clutch have very tight tolerances and these parts have to be test fitted together before they can ship it put. Since that's all I really need, I hope they offer it without all the fiero specific parts. I haven't found that info yet.
Reasons:
1. Cool factor is very high.
2. Never been done to this model of car (I think).
3. Solves my exhaust routing issues.
4. I can put my subwoofer box under the hood.
5. I don't have any clear way to mod the AC unit to clear the higher tunnel.
6. I can keep both my windshield wipers.
7. Brand new G6 6 speeds are very cheap and appear stronger than their ratings.
8. Cool factor is very high.
The one downside is that V8 Archie is the only company I know that makes the LS1 to G6 adapter. They didn't respond to my last 2 emails so I don't know if I can buy the adaptor seperate from their Fiero swap kit. That kit runs $3500, in case you were wondering.
The adapter is about a 2" thick chunk of aluminum that mates the bolt patterns together. Fairly simple. The starter mounts where the oil filter would fit because the output shaft runs along the passenger side of the block.
They say the adapter plate, starter mount, starter, flywheel and clutch have very tight tolerances and these parts have to be test fitted together before they can ship it put. Since that's all I really need, I hope they offer it without all the fiero specific parts. I haven't found that info yet.
Last edited by JasonWW; 12-12-2008 at 09:29 AM.
12-12-2008, 11:31 AM
#171
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If you are in need of an adapter, why not call the artists formerly known as SixSpeedInc? I know the people are somewhere working, but for someone else. But they did a sweet adapter for 3800sII RWD to T56 for a member here for way less than that.
12-12-2008, 01:03 PM
#172
Besides just connecting the 2 together, I think you have to extend the input shaft as well. That trans, the F40, doesn't have a removable bell housing. I could probably make or have made the adapter, but I'm still not sure what clutch pieces would work. I remember Archie saying he had the clutch custom built from Centerforce.
I haven't really dug into the details of it yet. I'll post up when I get more details and some actual costs for just getting the engine and trans to work together.
I haven't really dug into the details of it yet. I'll post up when I get more details and some actual costs for just getting the engine and trans to work together.
Last edited by JasonWW; 12-12-2008 at 01:13 PM.
12-12-2008, 11:11 PM
#173
BTW, GM made a very tiny change in a couple of the gear ratios for the G6 trans starting in 07 along with them being made I'm a different location. So all the 6 speeds your seeing on eBay for $400 are the 05 and 06 built units that GM considers surplus.
Last edited by JasonWW; 12-12-2008 at 11:20 PM.
12-14-2008, 09:14 PM
#174
I've been meaning to post this for a while. Lamborghini Miura Drivetrain. Transverse V12 with the gearbox and block molded together. The gearbox is under the engine. This design caused the center of gravity to be a bit high.
Last edited by JasonWW; 12-14-2008 at 10:04 PM.
12-14-2008, 09:15 PM
#175
Lamborghini Countach Drivetrain. Longitudinal V12. It used a small diameter clutch because the driveshaft went right under it and through the oil pan.
Here you can see the input shaft on the top and the output shaft on the bottom
Notice the small clutch diameter.
The differential.
The driveshaft running along the top of the picture.
Here you can see the input shaft on the top and the output shaft on the bottom
Notice the small clutch diameter.
The differential.
The driveshaft running along the top of the picture.
Last edited by JasonWW; 12-14-2008 at 10:08 PM.
12-15-2008, 01:36 AM
#176
Hey Eroc, I'm looking at a version that is a bit less extreme than yours in post 36. I don't think I'm going to have to move the wheels that far back, but a bit more than I did in my drawings. I'd like to keep the bumper shape as well so it looks like a TA.
The other thing is that the front wheels will need to stay where they are, but I CAN shorten the front overhang so it matches the shorter rear overhang.
The other thing is that the front wheels will need to stay where they are, but I CAN shorten the front overhang so it matches the shorter rear overhang.
Last edited by JasonWW; 12-15-2008 at 01:45 AM.
12-15-2008, 01:58 AM
#178
This is what makes the most sense to me from a financial standpoint. The longitudinal mounting and the rear axle to engine distance is similar to using a ZF or Porsche gearbox. I can't afford those, so this is something I can actually put together. Understand?
The buggy is using the Countach layout, but with the engine high enough for the driveshaft to under the pan instead of through it. I may be able to attach a transfer case directly to the T56 and run a driveshaft low and on the passenger side to the 8.8 diff. This will get rid of the upper driveshaft and shorten the lower 2 piece unit. It looks like the case will be under the passengers knees, but I'm not sure. I'll post an updated pic soon.
You may not like this transfer case idea, but it's either that or I go back to a front engine design. The only other slim chance is if anyone can find me a ZF or Porsche transmission for under $2,000.
Here's a rally car that actually uses my idea of an AWD setup with the engine in the back with the trans facing forward and then a transfer case up in the front. The rear driveshaft then goes back under the engine to a diff that powers the rear wheels.
I know someone suggested having the driveshaft go under the engine, but there's no room for it. I'd have to go on the side.
What's really bugging me is that I have a perfectly good T56 which can handle all the power I can make along with a fresh LS7 clutch and I kind of hate to swap it for something lesser. I'm going to see if I can squeeze the engine in like this without moving the rear wheels too far back. Like so.
I know someone suggested having the driveshaft go under the engine, but there's no room for it. I'd have to go on the side.
What's really bugging me is that I have a perfectly good T56 which can handle all the power I can make along with a fresh LS7 clutch and I kind of hate to swap it for something lesser. I'm going to see if I can squeeze the engine in like this without moving the rear wheels too far back. Like so.
You may not like this transfer case idea, but it's either that or I go back to a front engine design. The only other slim chance is if anyone can find me a ZF or Porsche transmission for under $2,000.
Last edited by JasonWW; 12-15-2008 at 05:11 AM.
12-15-2008, 07:25 AM
#179
Let me just say something, when your trying to build something crazy and unique you tend to hit a lot of obstacles. Since money can pretty much overcome any obstacle, let's say that all my obstacles relate to money. Therefore when one road hits a point where it's going to cost too much to fix, then I back up and take another road. The result looks like i'm always changing my mind, but there is always a reason for it.
So now then, I looking deeper into the mid-engine design again for several reasons which I wrote in my mid-engine thread.
The only real way to not alter the wheelbase is to mount the engine sideways (transverse). It will just barely will fit.
The only acceptable transmission is the new G6 6speed manual. After all the Internet searching I've done and then talking to my own trans specialist, I just don't think it's going to hold up to the roughly 450hp I plan to make. Cryo treating the unit plus the cost of the adapter is going to push the cost way out there beyond what I see as practical. Plus there is no LSD for it.
So I'm looking at one of my older ideas. A longitudinal mount with the trans facing the front of the car and then a gearbox (transfer case) to redirect the power next to the oil pan and then to a diff mounted right in front of the harmonic balancer.
I know the T56 trans will hold up to the power. I know the Ford 8.8 IRS diff will hold up as well as has an LSD. All for very little money. There's no adapter and no clutch parts to buy. All I really need to buy is the transfer case. I think I can attach it to the transmission and have the output be low and on the passengers side which is typical of most units.
Now this is all good from a money perspective, but it also means I'm going to have to move the rear wheels back quite a lot. So how do I do that? I'm thinking of making a one piece fiberglass tilting rear cover just like the Lamborghini Miura. Now how do you do that?
I know if I can get it to fiberglass, I can reshape the rear fenders to move the wheel openings further back. Can I just cover my complete black car with a protective layer of something and then lay fiberglass over it to create a plug? Then go in and smooth out the plug like the seperation lines between the fender and bumper, add in the mold of the rear tail lights and filler panel, etc...?
Or should I make a mold of each piece seperate and then make a single plug?
Or make a seperate plug for each piece and then mold all the finished pieces together?
Then what do you do up front? I really don't think the front wheels can be moved back any more than they are now. The brake booster is the biggest obstacle there. What I can do is shorten the nose so the short front overhang with match the short rear overhang. I'll try to do a pic and see what it comes out like.
Any advice on the fiberglass stuff would sure help.
So now then, I looking deeper into the mid-engine design again for several reasons which I wrote in my mid-engine thread.
The only real way to not alter the wheelbase is to mount the engine sideways (transverse). It will just barely will fit.
The only acceptable transmission is the new G6 6speed manual. After all the Internet searching I've done and then talking to my own trans specialist, I just don't think it's going to hold up to the roughly 450hp I plan to make. Cryo treating the unit plus the cost of the adapter is going to push the cost way out there beyond what I see as practical. Plus there is no LSD for it.
So I'm looking at one of my older ideas. A longitudinal mount with the trans facing the front of the car and then a gearbox (transfer case) to redirect the power next to the oil pan and then to a diff mounted right in front of the harmonic balancer.
I know the T56 trans will hold up to the power. I know the Ford 8.8 IRS diff will hold up as well as has an LSD. All for very little money. There's no adapter and no clutch parts to buy. All I really need to buy is the transfer case. I think I can attach it to the transmission and have the output be low and on the passengers side which is typical of most units.
Now this is all good from a money perspective, but it also means I'm going to have to move the rear wheels back quite a lot. So how do I do that? I'm thinking of making a one piece fiberglass tilting rear cover just like the Lamborghini Miura. Now how do you do that?
I know if I can get it to fiberglass, I can reshape the rear fenders to move the wheel openings further back. Can I just cover my complete black car with a protective layer of something and then lay fiberglass over it to create a plug? Then go in and smooth out the plug like the seperation lines between the fender and bumper, add in the mold of the rear tail lights and filler panel, etc...?
Or should I make a mold of each piece seperate and then make a single plug?
Or make a seperate plug for each piece and then mold all the finished pieces together?
Then what do you do up front? I really don't think the front wheels can be moved back any more than they are now. The brake booster is the biggest obstacle there. What I can do is shorten the nose so the short front overhang with match the short rear overhang. I'll try to do a pic and see what it comes out like.
Any advice on the fiberglass stuff would sure help.
Last edited by JasonWW; 12-15-2008 at 07:34 AM.