Carnaut

First, does someone know the drag co-efficiencies for older Camaros (& Firebirds/TA's) ?

(someone please tell me - I need to know...)

Anyway, here's why I write: My beloved, expensive 4-year project car (71 Camaro) was feloniously stolen & illegally sold by the San Diego Police 19 years ago (Yes, an american Police Dept. actually committed Felony Grand Theft Auto and then covered it up {overt & harrowing police Crimes are not uncommon in San Diego, Ca.) but now I'm confident they may finally settle with me - so I finally hope go out and buy something else and start a new project car. But this is what I'm trying to achieve: {apart from knowing drag co-eff's with various older/newer GM cars...}...

I need recommendations of some fairly inexpensive used older/newer car(s) with good potential; but in attempts to eventually closely match the Autobahn's Ferarris, Porsches, & Lambos, etc. here in Europe where I live now. I was quite successful at this very same contest in Southern California 19 years ago with my 71 'super' Camaro - I was liked, & disliked, by the super-rich 'oil-familys' youngsters who could not out-drive me nor catch me in my Camaro while they drove their super-expensive, impressive exotic Italian iron back then.

But now that 19 years has past I'm not sure if another 70's car has much overall potential against today's exotics. The last time I saw US muscle ripping the Autobahn [here] was when it was popular for a motor-head to have a Banks twin-turbo setup in a 1980's-1990 Trans Am or Firebird (because they supposedly had a favourable drag co-eff's., & Corvette-like handling potential especially with common, easy mods & VR/ZR tyre's). Now, the only American 'muscle'-car I see here is the Corvette - but they are somewhat common, expensive [here], and they only have two seats.

Okay GM brothers, & seasoned enthusiasts: What fairly inexpensive car(s) now can be a good start for me here if I intend to use a power-plant based on the common older iron chevy 400 sb (with mods of course)? Also, can someone please tell me if it is easily possible to use the cheaper-available older iron blocks with the (newer?) cars? And, what about the existing trannys & rear-ends in post-1990's GM cars if one is using 450-550 ft.lbs.tq? - or do I now need to shovel a bunch 'o money for a newer, much more expensive engine casting/block (& tranny?) to easily fit into post-'90's cars? Also, 19 years ago I was just getting ready to graduate from Carburetion to more practical fuel-injection exploration, but due to the trauma & unspeakably painful theft of my pride & joy (Camaro) long ago I never owned another muscle car since. Is EFI nowadays pretty easy & relatively inexpensive to run on my (envisioned) 400sb with low-profile mini-blower (or even without the blower)? Should I stick with a Carb if/when using any (cheaper) under-the-hood Blower?

Also, does anyone know of any similar GM enthusiasts like myself (or informal/formal GM {not-exclusively Corvette} Clubs/Organisations), but here in Europe that I could also meet & talk to?

Lastly for the moment, can an 'experienced' person please constructively critique my envisioned motor-build idea(?); In my next 'sports' car I'd like to easily duplicate/surpass the hp/tq. of a lightly modified 454, but using a 400sb. Yes, I know of the 400's siamese design, & it's 5.65 rod length/rod-angle, etc., however, I built many 400's in the past and I was much happier with them than their 383(350) or 377(350) counter-parts mainly for the increase in inches making up for everything else as long as I didn't rev over 6,000-6500. But(?), are there now (cheap(er) 400sb mods (5.70-6.00" rods, forged crank, etc.) that will make the 400 {or a mild-stroker 420(400)} very usable, reliable & streetable like a 350 or 454, but with the 400sb using (with, or without) a smaller B&M, Weiand, or other 4-71(144cu?) blower? Keep in mind I don't want to spend a ton 'o money just on my engine. In the past I had around 450lbs/tq. for well under $2,000.USD, and I could have simply added a mini-blower (after reducing my compression/r) for another $1,500.USD {used} back then. I think I want to try something similar now here - but I'm wide open for suggestions.

Oh: every gas-station [here] has 98 Octane, and I can also very easily buy newer-generation LL-100 AV 'blue' fuel for the same price (or cheaper). Here, high-compression or high-boost are practical. So; being that gas quality and speed limits are not a problem here - what would you do with a somewhat limited budget over a 2-year period? Thanks!

kidreno_21

You say autobahn, are you in Germany at this time?

I have my SS (see sig) with me in Bavaria and I love it. I am putting about 480rwhp and 470rwtq to the ground. I still have my top speed limiter set at 160 mph, but I could easily surpass it - I just need to find a tuner.

If you want to chat about what you want/would like to do, send me a PM with your German phone number and I'll give you a call in the evening sometime this week. My phone number ends in -5915, so you'll know who's calling.

Also, the 98 octane is equivilant to the US 93 octane and 103 is roughly 95 or 96.

Carnaut

Nice to hear from you !!

Sorry, I'm not usually in DE, but I frequent [it] and Öst often enough, & their autobahns are not too far away for me when I finally acquire a vehicle. I might eventually have a DE handy that I could use during the daytime when up in DE. Sowieso, until then... If you don't mind chatting here for now...

Your englisch seems quite good - are you a Brit or from the States? (Armee?) I lived in Bayern when young, and I still make it up there {Altotting, München, Garmisch...} from Schweiz somewhat often. Hey, I was near Garmisch when Zugspitze had 20+cm/snow on August 15(!), wow, what a cold summer it's been.

So, are you achieving that kind of HP from a smallblock? normally aspirated (& w/out baby bottle)? Your SS must also have a quite favourable drag-coef, unlike most older cars. I once had a 70 Nova with tons 'o tq. & 'highway' gears 2:73's I think - but it's drag co-effs seemed to keep me under 130mph. I couldn't push 4500rpm in top gear even with approx. 450 ft.lbs.tq.

I haven't had a vehicle since I moved back to EU so I haven't tested the octane here. Is the 98 really like the US's 93?? (Schweiz as well?)(ugh!). I thought I had new hope(!). Well, I do have access to LL100 AV for a little less than the same expensive price as your €1.50/Ltr. so-called 98. The last time I used LL 100AV in the States I would pour 5gals of it in my tank, the rest w/92-93 octane and that was fine when using <11:1 c/r or 9lbs./boost if one is using forced induction. And, it didn't start to foul your plugs unless it was used straight 100% over & over again for several months.

Oh, if you ever decide to travel to Schweiz for any reason (famous street parade {wild but civilised/peaceful party}, mtn. biking, backpacking, or skiing, etc.) -the petrol down this way is 1/3rd cheaper than in DE(!). Yes, it's only 1.35CHF (about 95 euro-cent) per Ltr. Germans are down here often buying their petrol, but [we] are often up in DE buying our groceries & furnishings.

Per my original post, But I'm interested to learn if I must have all engine machining done in the U.S. Then, I (think?) I'd like to use the less-expensive older 400sb casting. And if it's easily possible to use with newer cars (Gen III or IV perhaps?), and if the newer car's EFI is easily adaptable for a stouter small block (or if a Carb can more be easily used). But then what about trannys? Example; if I buy a bare-bones/non SS/z28 v-8 Gen III or IV Camaro/Firebird/TA can I simply use it's original drive-train, then simply use bolt-on mods for their suspension, then buy bigger after-market Brake kits for them? I think that's more the direction I might want to go to keep overall costs down- but I'm wide open for suggestions. Regards-

Well, I'm here when you'd like to talk. I'd love to have geärhead friends here.

Regards-

SOMbitch

iTrader: (8)

A 4th gen f-body has a drag coeffecient of .32... Power is easy to make but not always cheap.... Better exhauast and more cam and I am prolly at 510+ EASY. Even more M6.....

I used a gps and my old 346 417rwhp car broke 174mph. I wouldn't think about these speeds w/o handling upgrades. I have koni SA shocks, Strano springs and his 35/22 swaybars and a DA UMI panhard bar. Before this the front got light and floaty at 140mph+....

kidreno_21

So, you're in Switzerland? I am in Bayern, and I am American. I was at the Zugspitz two weeks ago, beautiful. My girlfriend competed in the Zurich half Ironman in June, we drove my SS there and I got a lot of looks. Had a blast on the return trip - averaged 150mph for about an hour.

I bought my LS3 based 416 from Scoggin' Dickey in Texas. They built it to my specification and shipped it to my doorstep. It is a naturally aspirated car, no nitrous or anything else. Pure cubic inches. My heads are slightly small. If I went with a 235 or 245 and a larger cam, I could see 520 to 550 rwhp, but I don't want to spend the money.

I'd stick with the fuel injected cars. These days anyone can learn how to tune these cars or call someone to give advice.

You can't go wrong with an LS based engine. There are an infinite number of ways to build them and there is an application for almost every car. If you go with the LS you really open yourself up to any number of posibilities for any size engine you want to run. You can build a high revving LS7 block with a 4.8L crank, or stroke an LS7 block to a 443 ci. I went with my LS3 block, built it with nitrous piston rings and forged internals with dished pistons to give myself or the next owner the option to go F/I or nitrous. I even have a dual in tank Walbro fuel pump. Fun stuff.

There are guys here that are putting over 600 horse/torque to the ground with a forged LS1 and F/I. The block will hold to 800 or so, and I've heard of some guys hitting a 1000, which I doubt the longevity of these builds. If you want 500 or 600 rwhp, you can do it, you just need to spend the money.

What car are you looking to get in to? I know a guy who is looking to sell his 1999 or 2000 Trans Am for about 14,000 USD. It is a four speed auto, but it is in good condition. From there, you have a solid platform to start with and can swap out the engine and trans at a later date. I believe it is all stock.

Carnaut

Interesting, but sounds(?) a little expensive. How much does it cost to achieve 410-440 ci (w/small block) and 450-550 hp with a 10 year old Camaro/FB/TA? And do those generations of cars have lots of (cheaper?) mods for suspension & brakes? It may sound a little silly but the idea of some of these potential high costs of modern cars' mods sometimes makes me want to built another old camaro with cheaper old equipment like I did 19 years ago. But I certainly won't draw conclusions until I talk to people like you a bit more of course.

Anyway, are you in the army or do you have a job in DE? Are you living in Europe permanently? Let me know the next time you go to Zürich, Kreutzlingen/Konstanz, Winterthur, Bulach, or near Bregenz (Öst), etc. I could probably meet you & talk more in person too. Also, please let me know of any car meets anywhere in southern DE or anywhere else closer that you or others might go to that I could also meet sometime.

I look forward to hearing from you again. Grüße-

kidreno_21

http://sdparts.com/category/ls-gen-i...iv-performance

The above link is for the company where I bought my short block engine assembly. It took me over a year to read, learn, seek advice, and finally decide upon, build and purchase this engine. Had I known I'd be stationed in Germany, I would have went another way, but this engine runs great and I am very happy with it. And with all the modifications and power, I am still able to use the stock fuel lines and fuel rails.

I would like to meet up with you and show you my SS, but I don't know when I'll be able to get down there. Garmisch would be the best place for me to meet up in the next few months, but the spring will allow me to get to Zurich for an extended weekend. I recommend that you search LS1tech and read about the different set ups other guys have and try to figure out your overall goal. Once you decide how you want to use whatever car you end up building, the people you ask questions will be able to help you more effectively.

I am guessing that you want a fairly large displacement engine, run high speeds, over 500 rwtq, and be able to keep it on the road without a feel of the car floating.

If this is the case, I recommend an LS3 or LS7 based engine. They have a larger bore than the LS1, 2 and 6. The reason I recommend the larger bore is that you will get more displacement from them, especially if you increase the stroke (but I would not suggest stroking the LS7, 7 liters is plenty), and with the larger bore, you can use a larger head. You can get a lot of power out of just the stock engine with ported intake, cam, big (ported) heads, and headers.

Suspension, talk to Sam Strano. He is a sponsor on LS1tech and really helped me with my set up and kept me from spending too much money on products I don't need. He also helped me with the braking system on my SS. I have never felt like my car was going to float off while crusing at 160mph. It is just smooth, loud, but smooth.

I have spent a lot of money on my SS, with custom porting, machining, parts, tuning, and just keeping it running. I love this SS.

Like I have said before, an SS Camaro or a Trans Am is a great place to start your build. Whatever you end up getting, take your time, talk to the experts, build it on paper and have someone review it before you do anything.

Let me know if you have any further questions.

98pontiac

best bang for the buck right now is hands down the 98 Camaro... On the cheap cheap side you can get them from 4-5 grand.... Out of the box you are running with most 2010 porches, and bmws, its faster than most other higher end cars.. not fster than a viper or ferrari, but a few grand in parts can take care of that...

Carnaut

Eh, kidreno,

I just got back from mtn. biking near Bad Tolz & Garmisch as it's not too far.

Thanks for your input, but can you give me an idea what kind of $$ are we talking for your HP figures with the newer Gen stuff? I believe it's nice stuff but sounds a bit on the expensive side(?)

Also, just curious, what {car, parts, mods} route would you have taken if you'd had known of your orders to Germany?

Regards-

Carnaut

Hey 98pont!, THAT's the advice I'm looking for buddy!

The last time I was in the US I turned down the opportunity to buy an almost-new, garaged, 19,000 miles, '98 (FB) (in 2003) at an Auction for only $4,700. then (!) Damn, maybe I should have joined the bidding.

but are you sure that Generation of GM has PLENTY of fairly inexpensive mods (engine/heads/suspension/brakes)? And, must you pretty much only use [that] Generation of parts or is it possible to use the old-school engines, etc. to keep costs down if determined necessary?

Regards-

kidreno_21

Carnaut -
If you want to get quotes on horsepower per dollar you just need to click on the sponsor links on the right side of your screen. I have recommended Scoggin' Dickey for a short block already. You can't go wrong with AFR heads if you talk to someone at the shop and tell them your power goals.

I do not know enough about the old school parts to recommend anything, I can only help you with all things LSx related. Like I have said before, if you are going to utilize the F Body platform you open yourself up to hundreds of options.

Hindsight being 20/20, and I had known I was coming to Germany, I would have built my SS with the following parts:
forged LS7 block (SDPC compstar internals) with stock displacement
Ported (by Tony Mamo) AFR 245 heads
Compression Ratio where it is now (11.34:1)
LG Motorsport cam G7x4 with light weight cam kit
Ported (by Tony Mamo) FAST intake manifold (the biggest one out there)
25% under drive pulley (already have)
Suspension as it sits (talk to Sam Strano, he will help you)
A better brake caliper than the Baer OEM replacements I have, something with a six piston up front and four in the rear
I have an upgraded T-56 and 12 bolt Moser rear axle with 3.73, but I'd change my rear gears back to 3.42 or even 3.23 (whatever is stock for the A4 cars) for the high speed cruising at or above 150 mph (260ish kmph)
19 inch wheels, 9.5 inch wide all around
Strano lowering springs
And I am probably missing a few things, but that is just off the top of my head.

And if you're going to spend money on the above all at once or over time, you might as well buy a Corvette. An F Body, as I have seen, with max effort in suspension and a naturally aspirated engine, will not beat or perform as well as a ZO6 Corvette. You will spend thousands to try, but you will save money overall if you just get the vette.

With the different set ups I have done, different heads/cam combos, new engine, upgrade this and that, I could be the owner of a slightly used ZO6 with more performance than what I have now. But I would not have learned anything if I had done that. All the wrench time, decision processes, research, reading and talking to the experts has helped me to get the knowlege I now have. It has been a lot of fun doing this, too.

I am not trying to pursuade you one way or another, but if you want to stick with the sb400, you won't see the fuel efficiency that the LSx plaforms see. With everything I am running, I am able to cruise at 120 mph and still get about 17-19 miles per gallon, and back in the states I was getting 20 to 22 at 75mph. Just another thing to think about.

Other things to consider:
fuel rails
fuel pump
fuel injectors
fuel lines
engine and fuel management tune
clutch and adjustable master cylinder
exhaust system from headers to the y-pipe to the catalytic converter to the muffler to the tips
polyurethane bushings/motor and trans mount
panhard relocation bar
front and rear sway bars
tubular K-member

Carnaut

'eh kidreno,

Sounds like you probably spent a ton 'o money on your car (or your engine/drivetrain alone). don't think I can afford a vette (maybe an older/cheaper one?)

I am not apposed to trying some of the same things as you did because I wouldn't mind having a newer Camaro/FB/TA than the one I had(?) But, 19 years ago I was getting 22mpg+ with an old cheap 400sb and it only cost <$2,000. to build a nice long block with around 450 ft./lbs. tq.

Hmm.. well at least I have some newer ideas now (thanks to you!) Btw, I sent you a pm.

I'm planning on going up to southern Germany somewhere fairly soon to see some bigger/better castle ruins surrounded by fall colours up there somewhere, maybe Heidelberg. Then sometime around the Fall/Winter I'm trying to get to Nürnberg. Let me know if/when you travel anywhere, and when other geärheads might be congregating anywhere.

kidreno_21

Got your PM. I won't be in the area this weekend. There is a beer and whiskey festival in Sweden I am going to hit. Next month I am going to Egypt and then Rome the following weekend. I wish my girlfriend would just let me sit on my *** for one weekend a month and not have to travel in a plane or on a train. Or on a camel, which I guess she has on the schedule for Egypt.

Yeah, I have dumpped some money into my SS, but I am thankful for the learning opportunities I have had because of it.

I only reccommend the LS blocks b/c they are all I know. When you say 400sbc, you may as well be speaking about a twin cam modular engine or a wankel rotory. I just don't pay attention to them.

We will link up some time and get to talk about this stuff. Enjoy your trip!

ZMX

1. Top speed has NOTHING to do with torque.

2. You spent $2,000 19 years ago. That's over $5,000 today. And now you're in Europe. The monstrous American small-block Chevy market does not exist there.

Carnaut

Glad to hear you are getting around well, but I hear 'ya about being able to sit down once in a while. Is your girlfriend German, or from the states?

Btw, all the 400 small block chevy's I built in that past were not particularly special - just a standard 2-bolt main block, single cam, regular overhead valve engine - very similar to a 262-350.

I checked recent prices for parts for an old 400sb rebuild: there are still deals for a complete [high quality/racing] rebuild kit, plus machining, plus a decent pair of rebuilt heads with mild port job= <$2900. for complete long-block as long as i build it all myself (which I greatly prefer) and chose the right machine shops. These parts were quoted to me by my age-old engine parts supplier called P.A.W. in Chatsworth, Ca. How much does it cost to have 450 ft. lbs. tq. realiably from a modern GM block/head castings?

When the time comes to have a (fast) car again I still hope I can find something newer though, similar to what you have.

Have a safe trip on that camel(!)

kidreno_21

When you ask for 450 ft lbs of torque, are you wanting that at the crank or at the wheels? At the crank is easy, (F body anyways) just a good intake, headers, exhaust and maybe a 25% under drive pulley or an electric water pump. At the wheels, all the above plus a big cam and big heads and a FAST intake manifold and Nick Williams throttle body. Port the heads and manifold and you will easily see over 450 rwtq.

If you want to get started soon, just buy an LS1 F body and you can take your time with your build. Start in the order of the parts I listed above - too easy.

I concur with ZMX. Torque does not have as much to do with top end as horsepower does. Remember the old saying - Horsepower is how fast you hit the wall, torque is how far you take the wall with you.

Now that you have done some research on the SBC, contact some of the sponsors on the right side of your screen and see what they can do for you regarding an LS1 and compare the results.

Carnaut

Thanks for your great replies, however, I haven't gotten my monetary settlement from a VERY Criminal Police Dept. in southern California yet, and I'm still in the planning stage.

Just one question at the moment: Just say I went out and bought an F body; how much $$$ to achieve roughly 450 lbs/tq. at the crank with our 'future generation' block/heads(etc.) {torque, not horsepower- [hp] is just sales-kid BS unless were talking 600-700 hp+)

Regards-

kidreno_21

Set of AFR 205 heads - $2390 http://www.airflowresearch.com/index.php?cPath=76_77
LG Motorsports G5x3 Cam kit - $1560.90 http://www.lgmotorsports.com/catalog...oducts_id=1399
FAST intake manifold - $978.50 http://www.fuelairspark.com/Products...en3/intake.asp or http://www.compperformancegroupstore...ory_Code=GMLS1
Nick Williams Throttle Body - $494.99 http://www.thunderracing.com/shop-by...rottle-Bodies/
Textrailia OZ700 Clutch - $970 http://www.westcoastcorvette.com/p-1...lia-oz700.aspx

Quick math says roughly $6500. That is not including tax or shipping. And you can save more if you hold out and scan ebay or look for internet deals. Heck, you might even find an F Body with this set up for sale. That would save you even more.

I have fuel injectors you can have and the G5x3 cam I'll let go for $150. It is used, but it will still work. That will knock off a few dollars for you. This seems like a lot, but this set up will last you for a long time. There are guys on this site who have run with similar set ups, reliably I might add, for over 50,000 miles and maybe even 100,000.

Now that I have done the leg work for you, search this site for F Bodies with similar set ups, ask the guys what they have spent, and research. Too easy.

kidreno_21

https://ls1tech.com/forums/dynamomet...ng-wheels.html

This should assist you in your planning.

ZMX

They're meaningfully different in ways I think you'd like to know about.

http://www.epi-eng.com/piston_engine...and_torque.htm