Malihoochie

Dart331 said he'd coat a piston for you to test! youre the one not stepping up.
All 16 of the Pro Stock field every race weekend run coatings - in a class as close as that, the stupid don't make the grade. Now quit wasting bandwidth on your ignorant ideas.

white2001s10

iTrader: (4)

You'd be surprised how much stupid is out there.
He can send it here:
Piston test
418 Missouri Street bld 4157
Scott AFB, Illinois 62225

I'll test it and send it back, but it will go back uncoated as there's no other way to do a control test using the same piston.

I'm not going to hold my breath.

Malihoochie

Test it & send it back? He offered to coat a piston top for you - I don't think he's offering to buy you a piston.

By the way my father retired from the USAF as a colonel, he says the air force as well as the private sector (Pan-Am), has used ceramic coatings since the mid '70's. At Davis-Montham the A-10's make use of many coated turbine parts. He was in on many tests concerning coatings in both jet and diesel apps. So much for the military not doing their own testing.

white2001s10

iTrader: (4)

Incorrect again. I specified TB coating on pistons, not other coatings, not TB coatings on other parts. My ENTIRE point in the conversation has been about TB coating on pistons ONLY. A-10's don't have pistons. The military does not coat anything themselves besides with paint. It's contracted out.


Buy a piston? WTF? I said I'd test it and send it back, not that I wanted to keep a piston. I don't see any big deal. It could be any spare/used/damaged forged piston. Why add the extra trip and shipping?

Malihoochie

- Your words.

Malihoochie

- Dart331strokers' words

He said to send him a piston. Not that he'd front you one.

white2001s10

iTrader: (4)

That took some effort to dig that up.
I'll give you that I should have said "TB coating of pistons" in that post so it wouldn't be quoted against me later. Jet engines and rocket nozzles are off topic as far as my posts are concerned though. They are still contracted out like I said.

He also didn't say he'd coat one for free either, and since I already have some from two competitors, then I guess that's what I'll test.

Ninesecsnake

Thanks for the info Dart331!

KVU

iTrader: (1)

I'll send dart331 a piston for coating. Since he has been in the business for decades, he must first tell me the exact test procedure to verify his coating works. Just putting it in my engine and staying attached to the piston is not good enough. I live in the real world. WHere is the real world RESULTS???

Malihoochie

- YOUR opinion of YOURSELF


- the rest of the worlds opinion of dealing w/ you/him

I'm sure 331 would have a piston coated for you/him - stick it in your engine, stick your torch on it, or just stick it. He said he'd get one coated for you and he can get that done. What you do with it after that doesn't bother Dart at all.
Real world results are all around you - me, Dart331, or anyone pointing them out to you has done nothing to convince you so why bother naming more? Why don't you two build & campain a car or go kart etc. in a competetive class where the competetion is basically using the same parts - coatings will almost always be found in the winners motors.

white2001s10

iTrader: (4)

Don't bother. Naming people who have opinions who favor yours proves nothing. So far you haven't added not even a hint of positive data to support their or your opinion that the TB coating does anything on a piston.
Why continue your pushing?
We're asking valid questions. Why don't you provide valid data?

This forum isn't here to give you a convenient way to insult people.

Malihoochie

Call ANY major engine builder - you pick who, ask them to prove it to you. WTF! Call Dow - Corning. You two come off as some far out extremeists that should spend some time "in the real world" , pick up a wrench and quit pretending your so wise.

white2001s10

iTrader: (4)

I think you are misjudging. I've spent my share in the real world too.

I would give you credit to know better on this type of matter. If you wanted to know if a GM vehicle was best or had the best record, would you call a GM dealer? I sure as hell hope not.

I have made several phone calls, but still come up short on valid test data. The best (or worst I might say) answer was simply that a customer cannot do a valid test to show the TB works on a piston.
When the weather improves I will make a great effort to perform more testing which may include in vehicle testing, even though that adds a great many variables. I'll do my best to reduce these.

What I'm looking for in particular is a way to quantify and qualify the extent of which a TB coating may work in operation. This information could be quite useful to me. What I got from my initial testing was a complete failure of the TB coating to make any change in straight insulating ability as applied on a piston.
I understand that TB coatings are said to work very well on parts like exhaust and turbo housings, and be easily tested to do so. I need to find out if a discrepancy exists, or the extent of the discrepancy between exhaust and a piston & hopefully why. It may come down to the maker of the TB product. Perhaps the product that I tested does not work, where another product may work.
You seem to be taking offense to the simple asking of valid questions like "show me the data"

ArcticZ28

iTrader: (14)

LOL, I can't believe this thread is still going. Just let it die.

Malihoochie

Of course I take offense, every time someone says check here, call "X", etc. you scream bias. I would like you to "find" the proof you seek - but I think you are asking for something that is out of YOUR reach to prove. The best budget test I can think of is to build a briggs & stratton and dyno it w/ & w/o a coated piston. Holding a propane torch to the piston face for a minute does not simulate what occurs in a motor - although I can see the basic idea behind it.
Not meant as a slam - but because this thread has dragged on for 6 pages, and you have been steadfast against anything that has been offered up as proof or as a suggestion, I do begin to ask myself the question of: who is the fool? The fool, or the fool arguing with the fool?

z-ya

iTrader: (1)

I started using coatings in the early 80's with a heat barrier coating called henium.Stuff
went on at a thickness of .013 so dimentions had to account for it's thickness.We were
using it on a small displacment 2 stroke roadrace yamaha and were having seizure issues on brainerds long front straight turn 1 combo.After applying the coating to the
piston,chamber and exhaust port ,then the seizures stopped. A side benfit was slighly
leaner jetting allowed and a smidgen more lead on the timing.I have been using coatings ever since with good sucess.

gun5l1ng3r

I have to put my two cents in here...

I have to agree with white2001s10.
I still have not seen any scientific test data showing the benefits of TB coatings. I think that is all he is asking for and I have not seen any so far. TB coatings may work in 'real' world applications and all he is asking for is some scientific data backing up the 'real' world experiences.

Dart331Stroker

I havent seen anything that says that the teflon on my frying pan works, but when I fry an egg on it and then when I tilt the pan to slide it off onto my plate it works.. Maybe I should cal TFal and ask them about it.

You guys all have failed to pay any attention to anything said on here, it has been mentioned that like Tfal, Dart, Polydyn, Calico, none of us make the chemicals used, they are made by the same people who make it for Tfal, NASA, US Government. They did the research you want the scientific proof or information contact DOW Chemical Directly, see if they ware willing to give you proof.

Testing the piston top: I have some more information, people on here have mentioned polished vs. coated. It was mentioned that the coated pistons could have carbon deposits, wrong, the coated tops done by us are done with a coating that is moly teflon based, oil and carbon dont stick to it.

Polished wont work as the heat in the piston will bake the oils on the top and this hurts the performance.

Again we did "real world" testing. Not some lab experiment, we believe in the testing done by the makers and developers of the products.

It amazes me that someone without the resources to use this, and run this doesnt or wont believe people who do. Personally then you shouldnt buy anything ever made for the performance car market, as none of it is scientifically proven, it is all done in the "real world". Heck some of our heads flow less dry air than our competitors heads, but flow more wet air than our competitors heads, can you scientifically prove to me which one will make more power and why.

I bet I could and I know why but it would kill all the people who use heads because they flow ex amount of air dry...

We could argue this until the pigs come home. You want to test your theory send me a piston that matchs the other two pistons, I will coat the top, you then must run this piston in an environment that duplicates and engine, not a blow torch with direct heat. Pistons dont have direct heat directly and constantly applied. Remember oil splashs on the back of pistons, fuel gets dispersed into the chambers which cools the chamber, and aluminum itself will dissipate heat. Really I would test the engine with four coated on one bank and four non coated on the other and then come up with your observation. However again that is real world, and we have already done this...The proof is in the performance.

its funny really throughout this whole site you guys want dyno numbers, flow numbers, and chassis dyno numbers and track et numbers for proof, and we have done this, many of racers professional and non professional have done this and here is one instance where someone needs more.... GO figure..

John
Dart Machinery Ltd....

P.S. The tool and die industry and automakers have also been doing coatings for thermal resistance for years on machinery to increase tooling life, and bearing life. You know how they tested it, in the real world making parts, using it in the machines. This extra cost item has saved them millions of dollars........

.35$

white2001s10

iTrader: (4)

Thank you for that information John. I am seriously considering everything you have said here.
I am aware that friction coatings work, and that ceramics and other insulators work in the real world. A ceramic of significant thickness should work very well as an insulator on a piston top. My doubt comes in because of the required effective thickness of coating being able to survive in operation. Everything I've heard, and read, including the instructions with came with the Techline coatings specifies a very thin coating. My coating survived my testing no problem, but did not insulate. I tried it much thicker, but still no effect. I realize maybe Techline just doesn't work, where other brands may.

What thickness do you have your TB coating applied to piston tops?
Is this coating supposed to be insulating as in slowing the heat transfer into the piston? or is it there to do something else like reject carbon?

I realize that I may also be misunderstanding how the coating works in a running engine. If it cannot be proven outside the engine, then that is hard to swallow. It is also hard to imagine how the company developed something to work in an environment that is apparently impossible to duplicate for testing.

I am seriously considering a test in a running engine like you say with one bank coated. I have a pile of test equipment that should show something if there is a change.

Pro Stock John

iTrader: (34)

Seems like you could coat pistons on one bank, and not the other, and then compare the EGT's on the engine dyno?

/liteweight contributor