10% Ethanol?
Thread Starter
TECH Resident
Joined: Dec 2004
Posts: 881
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10% Ethanol? So I filled up today an noticed that Sunoco 94 was now Sunoco 93. The I noticed it was 10% ethanol.
Now for the questions:
Are there issues with engine life, rings, valve guides, valves seats, etc. when using ethanol?
Won't this result in a mileage drop?
Isn't ethanol supposed to raise octane? Has Sunoco really started using a lower octane gasoline?
Are other manufacturers doing it?
Will it stop at 10%
Thanks,
David
Now for the questions:
Are there issues with engine life, rings, valve guides, valves seats, etc. when using ethanol?
Won't this result in a mileage drop?
Isn't ethanol supposed to raise octane? Has Sunoco really started using a lower octane gasoline?
Are other manufacturers doing it?
Will it stop at 10%
Thanks,
David
Does the State of NJ require ethanol now? Or is this random?
10% Ethanol gas has been here in the Midwest for several years. It should have no adverse effect on the engine parts, but if you go past the 10% (or past the factory recommendation) you may run into problems. Virtually ALL gas in MN and surrounding states (Iowa is even higher) have ethanol based gas. I'm fortunate enough to have a Shell gas station nearby that sells non-ethanol premium and 100 octane unleaded.
Will mileage drop?
Yes, usually by a couple of mpg's. But it does burn cleaner.
Will it stop at 10%?
Unlikely. MN is trying to push for a higher percent of ethanol, but the auto manufacturers are lobbying hard against it because they are saying too much will cause problems. It's more a polictical issue now because states with a high percent of agriculture like MN look to benefit by increasing the ethanol content. Look for this issue to be pushed to the forefront in the next couple of years.
I would try to use Shell Gas. They are one of the few "top tier" gasolines out there which is actually recommended by GM, BMW and some others. I recently switched to Shell for my 98 TA and it does seem to run better overall.
10% Ethanol gas has been here in the Midwest for several years. It should have no adverse effect on the engine parts, but if you go past the 10% (or past the factory recommendation) you may run into problems. Virtually ALL gas in MN and surrounding states (Iowa is even higher) have ethanol based gas. I'm fortunate enough to have a Shell gas station nearby that sells non-ethanol premium and 100 octane unleaded.
Will mileage drop?
Yes, usually by a couple of mpg's. But it does burn cleaner.
Will it stop at 10%?
Unlikely. MN is trying to push for a higher percent of ethanol, but the auto manufacturers are lobbying hard against it because they are saying too much will cause problems. It's more a polictical issue now because states with a high percent of agriculture like MN look to benefit by increasing the ethanol content. Look for this issue to be pushed to the forefront in the next couple of years.
I would try to use Shell Gas. They are one of the few "top tier" gasolines out there which is actually recommended by GM, BMW and some others. I recently switched to Shell for my 98 TA and it does seem to run better overall.
On The Tree
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 148
Likes: 0
I think there were issues with some rubber components and aluminum. Alcohols attack rubber hoses and seals....silicone hoses and seals are typically the replacement. They also corrode the aluminum in carbs from what i have seen so i can only imagine what they do to alum. FI parts. You could anodize or coat the alum. parts to help there. The corrosion is a white powered.
Ethanol is similar to methanol....so once you get to a higher percentage of ethanol you can bump up compression(higher octane rating) to help get back some efficiency.
Why the big push to 85%(E85)?....my guess would be that we actually can't produce enough E85 to supply the demand that is being generated....so the price of E85 will be about $6.00 a gallon while the oil companies get gas to $5.00 a gallon. That way we can pad big oil's pockets, and subsidize the corn growers while they build more ethanol plants and figure out how to get more ethanol from the corn they are already growing.....sounds logical right?
Why not 50% or 30% first? Who knows.
Ethanol is similar to methanol....so once you get to a higher percentage of ethanol you can bump up compression(higher octane rating) to help get back some efficiency.
Why the big push to 85%(E85)?....my guess would be that we actually can't produce enough E85 to supply the demand that is being generated....so the price of E85 will be about $6.00 a gallon while the oil companies get gas to $5.00 a gallon. That way we can pad big oil's pockets, and subsidize the corn growers while they build more ethanol plants and figure out how to get more ethanol from the corn they are already growing.....sounds logical right?
Why not 50% or 30% first? Who knows.
TECH Apprentice
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 320
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From: Norwalk, CT
Ethanol has caused all sorts of driveability problems in BMW's, including fuel pumps locking up after as little as 300mi! They will be releasing new software for
customers who complain about driveability problems (hesitation, stalling, rough running...). I know that ethanol does eat at rubber/plastic/steel and that vehicles that are not E85 compatible are at risk.
Even though ethanol content is only at 10% it still effects the above materials-some manufacturers more then others. It is really causing me a lot of problems at work, not to mention headaches for the customer
customers who complain about driveability problems (hesitation, stalling, rough running...). I know that ethanol does eat at rubber/plastic/steel and that vehicles that are not E85 compatible are at risk.
Even though ethanol content is only at 10% it still effects the above materials-some manufacturers more then others. It is really causing me a lot of problems at work, not to mention headaches for the customer
this is old news in NYS, i've seen stickers for 10% ethanol for sometime now, never thought twice about it, and never had any problems in my 98 formula with it... i'm not so much worried about it as i am worried about getting gas in canada... thats a no-no
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Other than having to change your tune slightly if your a perfectionist and a MAYBE a slight drop in mileage you wont even notice a difference running 10% ethanol. I havent. In fact I recently went on a 500 mile roundtrip and noticed absolutely NO mileage effects....
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I had heard (but have not substantiated) that all cars can run on 10%, but when it gets higher than 10% that some cars have trouble.
It does decrease fuel mileage, but also decreases dependence on foreign oil.
Sigh.
Here in Indiana, it is pretty easy to find premium that is 100% fossil fuel, but almost all lower grades are 10%.
It does decrease fuel mileage, but also decreases dependence on foreign oil.
Sigh.
Here in Indiana, it is pretty easy to find premium that is 100% fossil fuel, but almost all lower grades are 10%.
Tech Resident
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 5,117
Likes: 3
From: Philly
want the short answer? ethanol is bad for your car, it's bad for your mpg, it's bad for your wallet, it's great for oil companies since you see the pump more.
ethanol is cleaner burning. yea right. someone should mention that it being "cleaner burning" gets offset when you have to burn more gas because of the less fuel economy you're getting. all it results in is less money for you and more for the oil companies and the government.
ethanol is cleaner burning. yea right. someone should mention that it being "cleaner burning" gets offset when you have to burn more gas because of the less fuel economy you're getting. all it results in is less money for you and more for the oil companies and the government.
Wow that was a very ignorant statement choco. Ethanol is the future. It is cleaner burning. In fact, production of it alone is cleaner, (will be) cheaper, and more beneficial to the US. My father's company has developed a technique to extract the ethanol from the corn, then use the waste to power an electric generator making the entire plant self sustaining. It is not a conspiracy by the oil companies and the government. It is a plan they have setup to keep the entire world from ending when the oil runs out.
I ran E85 in my camaro with all stock fuel system, except larger injectors, for 7-8 months, and put 15,000 miles on it. Still running great when I stored it.
I payed 1.40$ for ethanol when gas was 3.00$. Farmers throw away massive amounts of corn that the government has to pay for anyways. Why not use it for fuel.
Oh yeah it burns cleaner, its octane rating is 106 vs 93, latenet heat of vaporization is 3 times greater than gas, so it cools the intake charge 3 times better than gas. So it was a huge benfit to me. No carbon deposits.
Allowed me to remove my intercooler, and run crazy boost.
Engines designed to use it, can get nearly the same miles/gal as gas engines.
I payed 1.40$ for ethanol when gas was 3.00$. Farmers throw away massive amounts of corn that the government has to pay for anyways. Why not use it for fuel.
Oh yeah it burns cleaner, its octane rating is 106 vs 93, latenet heat of vaporization is 3 times greater than gas, so it cools the intake charge 3 times better than gas. So it was a huge benfit to me. No carbon deposits.
Allowed me to remove my intercooler, and run crazy boost.
Engines designed to use it, can get nearly the same miles/gal as gas engines.
Tech Resident
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 5,117
Likes: 3
From: Philly
Originally Posted by SVT THIS
Wow that was a very ignorant statement choco. Ethanol is the future. It is cleaner burning. In fact, production of it alone is cleaner, (will be) cheaper, and more beneficial to the US. My father's company has developed a technique to extract the ethanol from the corn, then use the waste to power an electric generator making the entire plant self sustaining. It is not a conspiracy by the oil companies and the government. It is a plan they have setup to keep the entire world from ending when the oil runs out.
there should be separate pumps that have ethanol in it and separate pumps with ethanol free gas. our cars were not made for ethanol. i believe i've heard it's even in the manuals. it's bad for rubber parts, it kills our fuel mileage and it just plain wasn't made for our cars.
ignorance is the government forcing us to use ethanol in our cars when they weren't designed to run anything but standard unleaded gasoline. i know what ethanol is made of. i'm familiar with biofuels. it's just a bunch of **** for us to be forced to run fuel that was never made for our cars and does more harm than good to them.
Originally Posted by SVT THIS
We are not forced to run ethanol fuel. You can go to a non ethanol station. Where I live (Oklahoma) we have more non-ethanol stations than ethanol stations.
Tech Resident
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 5,117
Likes: 3
From: Philly
Originally Posted by '02 SLP#686
You cannot find a station that does not run the mix here in MA
Originally Posted by SVT THIS
We are not forced to run ethanol fuel. You can go to a non ethanol station. Where I live (Oklahoma) we have more non-ethanol stations than ethanol stations.
Originally Posted by ChocoTaco369
i'm not arguing that ethanol is the future. what it should be is OPTIONAL.
there should be separate pumps that have ethanol in it and separate pumps with ethanol free gas. our cars were not made for ethanol. i believe i've heard it's even in the manuals. it's bad for rubber parts, it kills our fuel mileage and it just plain wasn't made for our cars.
ignorance is the government forcing us to use ethanol in our cars when they weren't designed to run anything but standard unleaded gasoline. i know what ethanol is made of. i'm familiar with biofuels. it's just a bunch of **** for us to be forced to run fuel that was never made for our cars and does more harm than good to them.
there should be separate pumps that have ethanol in it and separate pumps with ethanol free gas. our cars were not made for ethanol. i believe i've heard it's even in the manuals. it's bad for rubber parts, it kills our fuel mileage and it just plain wasn't made for our cars.
ignorance is the government forcing us to use ethanol in our cars when they weren't designed to run anything but standard unleaded gasoline. i know what ethanol is made of. i'm familiar with biofuels. it's just a bunch of **** for us to be forced to run fuel that was never made for our cars and does more harm than good to them.
Ethanol is actually a very good fuel, but the vehicle needs to be set up properly in order to tak advantage of it. Running a regular gas engine on 10% ethanol will see no benefits, besides maybe a slightly cleaner fuel system. In fact, you will lose some power as well as a couple MPG. Not benficial at all.
However, if your vehicle is set up to run purely on Ethanol or E85, then there are actual benefits. Not only is it cheaper to buy, but it keeps the fuel system spotless, burns cleanly, and is a renewable source of energy. The problem is most people don't have vehicles that are set up to run ethanol. You need a special fuel system setup with metal lines as well as different ECU programming and Air/Fuel parameters. The compression ratio and timing can also be raised/advanced due to Ethanol's higher octane rating (106), which counters the fact that it contains less energy per unit than gasoline.
Bottom line is a properly set up Ethanol system will run just as well as a gasoline based system - the problem is, people think Ethanol is useless because it doesn't provide any benefits on regular gas engines. Obviously its not going to, as they aren't designed to run on it.
Someone correct me if I'm mistaken, but isn't it true that a vehicle that burns pure Ethanol doesn't require catalytic converters?? If thats the case, it also wouldn't need a downstream O2 sensor, nor would it need EGR, A.I.R., EVAP canisters, or all the other emmissions bullshit that we need to have in order to make gasoline engines burn cleanly. That sounds pretty damn good to me
However, if your vehicle is set up to run purely on Ethanol or E85, then there are actual benefits. Not only is it cheaper to buy, but it keeps the fuel system spotless, burns cleanly, and is a renewable source of energy. The problem is most people don't have vehicles that are set up to run ethanol. You need a special fuel system setup with metal lines as well as different ECU programming and Air/Fuel parameters. The compression ratio and timing can also be raised/advanced due to Ethanol's higher octane rating (106), which counters the fact that it contains less energy per unit than gasoline.
Bottom line is a properly set up Ethanol system will run just as well as a gasoline based system - the problem is, people think Ethanol is useless because it doesn't provide any benefits on regular gas engines. Obviously its not going to, as they aren't designed to run on it.
Someone correct me if I'm mistaken, but isn't it true that a vehicle that burns pure Ethanol doesn't require catalytic converters?? If thats the case, it also wouldn't need a downstream O2 sensor, nor would it need EGR, A.I.R., EVAP canisters, or all the other emmissions bullshit that we need to have in order to make gasoline engines burn cleanly. That sounds pretty damn good to me