10% Ethanol?
Volumetric energy density of some fuels compared to gasoline:
Fuel type MJ/l BTU/imp gal BTU/US gal Research octane
number (RON)
Diesel 40.9 176,000 147,000 251
Gasoline 32.0 150,000 125,000 91–98
Gasohol (10% ethanol + 90% gasoline) 28.06 145,200 120,900 93/94
LPG 22.16 114,660 95,475 115
Ethanol 19.59 101,360 84,400 129
Methanol 14.57 75,420 62,800 123
Fuel type MJ/l BTU/imp gal BTU/US gal Research octane
number (RON)
Diesel 40.9 176,000 147,000 251
Gasoline 32.0 150,000 125,000 91–98
Gasohol (10% ethanol + 90% gasoline) 28.06 145,200 120,900 93/94
LPG 22.16 114,660 95,475 115
Ethanol 19.59 101,360 84,400 129
Methanol 14.57 75,420 62,800 123
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From: Baltimore, MD.
Originally Posted by cantdrv65
Volumetric energy density of some fuels compared to gasoline:
Fuel type MJ/l BTU/imp gal BTU/US gal Research octane
number (RON)
Diesel 40.9 176,000 147,000 251
Gasoline 32.0 150,000 125,000 91–98
Gasohol (10% ethanol + 90% gasoline) 28.06 145,200 120,900 93/94
LPG 22.16 114,660 95,475 115
Ethanol 19.59 101,360 84,400 129
Methanol 14.57 75,420 62,800 123
Fuel type MJ/l BTU/imp gal BTU/US gal Research octane
number (RON)
Diesel 40.9 176,000 147,000 251
Gasoline 32.0 150,000 125,000 91–98
Gasohol (10% ethanol + 90% gasoline) 28.06 145,200 120,900 93/94
LPG 22.16 114,660 95,475 115
Ethanol 19.59 101,360 84,400 129
Methanol 14.57 75,420 62,800 123
Comparing the energy density is good. However, it does miss the chemistry portion of the equation.
For example:
On the surface, Methanol looks lousy. 62,800 BTU/gal is about half of gasoline. But, the ratio required makes it better from a power standpoint (Stoich for gasoline ~ 14.7, stoich for methanol ~ 6:1, meaning you put more fuel in for the same amount of air) because you net more energy in the cylinder. But from a fuel economy standpoint, you're also going to use better than twice as much....Not the best deal if its the same price per gallon....
'JustDreamin'
As far as ethanol goes, if you go straight ethanol, you can gain much of your lost efficiency by increasing your compression ratio. Usually you lose about 20% of your fuel economy going to ethanol, but like I said above, much of it can be regained.
With 10%Ethanol (I believe it is mainly for a summer-blend only) there is not much you can do, since there really is no Octane gain. Or you could get your license to make ethanol, and run E95 for less than $2 a gallon with 116 Octane.....
With 10%Ethanol (I believe it is mainly for a summer-blend only) there is not much you can do, since there really is no Octane gain. Or you could get your license to make ethanol, and run E95 for less than $2 a gallon with 116 Octane.....
Originally Posted by DavidNJ
And talking about facts, you claim that changing your tune (without any other changes) allowed you to use E10 with no power or mileage differences. That should reflect a problem in your measurements. While you may equal max power, your fuel system would have to be on a higher duty cycle. If you didn't see a mileage drop, something else has changed or your test wasn't comparable. It simply has less energy. Mileage has to be worse.
Originally Posted by RPM WS6
What, in your experiance, should one expect to find?
Just curious, because I've lived/driven in the chicago area my whole life. All the cars I own have been driven on E10 for nearly their entire lives, as we've had E10 gas here for many, many years.
My point? I've never had any fuel system corroision or failure issues on any of these cars. Frankly I don't see E10 causing any real harm long term to any fuel system built from the mid-'90s forward. Is that your conclusion as well?
Also, correct me if I'm wrong (I'm no chemical engineer), but isn't it correct that Ethanol itself is not what causes corroision of older fuel system components, but rather when water/mositure gets into a fuel system that, combined with Ethanol content, will cause the potential corroision issues? If that is correct, the simple solution seems to be the use of a fuel system agent that displaces water in the system. Many fuel system treatments provide this benefit.
Thoughts?
Just curious, because I've lived/driven in the chicago area my whole life. All the cars I own have been driven on E10 for nearly their entire lives, as we've had E10 gas here for many, many years.
My point? I've never had any fuel system corroision or failure issues on any of these cars. Frankly I don't see E10 causing any real harm long term to any fuel system built from the mid-'90s forward. Is that your conclusion as well?
Also, correct me if I'm wrong (I'm no chemical engineer), but isn't it correct that Ethanol itself is not what causes corroision of older fuel system components, but rather when water/mositure gets into a fuel system that, combined with Ethanol content, will cause the potential corroision issues? If that is correct, the simple solution seems to be the use of a fuel system agent that displaces water in the system. Many fuel system treatments provide this benefit.
Thoughts?
Originally Posted by ChocoTaco369
sure i do. it cuts fuel economy, it eats rubber hoses and gaskets because our engines were not made to run ethanol and we see no price breaks. so what's the point? don't even give me some clean air **** because most people on this site don't even run cats and rip their emissions systems out of their car.
ask yourself this question: what is better for our cars, ethanol based gas or normal gas? i already know what the answer is.
ethanol should not be mandatory in fuels. gas stations should have both ethanol pumps and non-ethanol pumps. for cars that were designed to run it (like a prius), you'd go to the ethanol pumps for best results. for cars like us, we'd go to the normal pumps. i don't like being forced to run fuel that my car wasn't desgined to run on. that's my problem with ethanol.
ask yourself this question: what is better for our cars, ethanol based gas or normal gas? i already know what the answer is.
ethanol should not be mandatory in fuels. gas stations should have both ethanol pumps and non-ethanol pumps. for cars that were designed to run it (like a prius), you'd go to the ethanol pumps for best results. for cars like us, we'd go to the normal pumps. i don't like being forced to run fuel that my car wasn't desgined to run on. that's my problem with ethanol.
go out to the mid west.. pull apart some older cars... they've been running the stuff for YEARS... without failure. without problems. without **** falling apart.
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yes MTBE as an additive in gasoline causes the mixture to have about 5,000 more BTUs than a 10% ethanol or gasohol in my post.... Not much. That isnt going to amount to more than a 1 mpg drop in mileage. As I posted, in my own experience it has amounted to a non-issue. Not even noticable in my case.....
Last edited by cantdrv65; Aug 1, 2006 at 01:00 AM.
Originally Posted by JustDreamin
Comparing the energy density is good. However, it does miss the chemistry portion of the equation.
For example:
On the surface, Methanol looks lousy. 62,800 BTU/gal is about half of gasoline. But, the ratio required makes it better from a power standpoint (Stoich for gasoline ~ 14.7, stoich for methanol ~ 6:1, meaning you put more fuel in for the same amount of air) because you net more energy in the cylinder. But from a fuel economy standpoint, you're also going to use better than twice as much....Not the best deal if its the same price per gallon....
'JustDreamin'
For example:
On the surface, Methanol looks lousy. 62,800 BTU/gal is about half of gasoline. But, the ratio required makes it better from a power standpoint (Stoich for gasoline ~ 14.7, stoich for methanol ~ 6:1, meaning you put more fuel in for the same amount of air) because you net more energy in the cylinder. But from a fuel economy standpoint, you're also going to use better than twice as much....Not the best deal if its the same price per gallon....
'JustDreamin'
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Originally Posted by dlandsvZ28
The question most should ask and don't is this?
Is the cost to produce one gallon of ethanol (corn as the source) and sell it at a profit cheaper than the same cost to produce one gallon of gasoline?
The cost to produce ethanol is subsidized by the government (our tax dollars) so the true cost of ethanol at the pump doesn't take into account the tax dollars in subsidies that are not reflected in the cost of one gallon of ethanol distributed in 10 gallons of gasoline (at a 10 percent mix).
Ethanol as a substitute for gasoline is a hoax advanced by our government.
We will never ever be able to grow enough corn to produce enough ethanol necessary for the the daily consumption of gasoline in this country.
And if you start using the land to grow corn for ethanol and instead of for feed for animals (chickens,pork, and beef) the cost of those products will go up.
Strange people we are. We complain about $3 for a gallon of gasoline but nary a complaint about making a visit to McDonalds to shell out nearly $5 for a 1/4 pounder cheese burger.
How many gallons of gasoline do you think went into the cost of production from start to finish (beef and wheat and potatoes) to get you that $5 cheeseburger with fries?
And what will the cost of the cheeseburger be when we start using the land to grow corn for ethanol rather than using it as it is used now to grow feedstocks for either beef or to grow wheat?
Ehtanol and electric cars are a hoax. We should using our resources instead for hydrogen cars (water) as a fuel or other technologies.
Is the cost to produce one gallon of ethanol (corn as the source) and sell it at a profit cheaper than the same cost to produce one gallon of gasoline?
The cost to produce ethanol is subsidized by the government (our tax dollars) so the true cost of ethanol at the pump doesn't take into account the tax dollars in subsidies that are not reflected in the cost of one gallon of ethanol distributed in 10 gallons of gasoline (at a 10 percent mix).
Ethanol as a substitute for gasoline is a hoax advanced by our government.
We will never ever be able to grow enough corn to produce enough ethanol necessary for the the daily consumption of gasoline in this country.
And if you start using the land to grow corn for ethanol and instead of for feed for animals (chickens,pork, and beef) the cost of those products will go up.
Strange people we are. We complain about $3 for a gallon of gasoline but nary a complaint about making a visit to McDonalds to shell out nearly $5 for a 1/4 pounder cheese burger.
How many gallons of gasoline do you think went into the cost of production from start to finish (beef and wheat and potatoes) to get you that $5 cheeseburger with fries?
And what will the cost of the cheeseburger be when we start using the land to grow corn for ethanol rather than using it as it is used now to grow feedstocks for either beef or to grow wheat?
Ehtanol and electric cars are a hoax. We should using our resources instead for hydrogen cars (water) as a fuel or other technologies.
Hoax my ***. I dont know about you, but it gripes my *** that > $1.00 per gallon goes to the back pockets in the Middle East at $2.80 /gallon at the pump.
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Unless HCCI engines actually become a reality, IMHO diesel will dominate. And soon. Since ethanol is not a diesel fuel, game over.
Their was a WSJ article last week. Basically, E85 is more expensive than gas. Diesel, at least in the summer, isn't. Also, diesel has more energy while E85 has less, compounding the cost.
There are some government studies documenting the decline in mileage vs. straight gas. Are you sure MTBE is everywhere?
Their was a WSJ article last week. Basically, E85 is more expensive than gas. Diesel, at least in the summer, isn't. Also, diesel has more energy while E85 has less, compounding the cost.
There are some government studies documenting the decline in mileage vs. straight gas. Are you sure MTBE is everywhere?
Originally Posted by DavidNJ
There are some government studies documenting the decline in mileage vs. straight gas. Are you sure MTBE is everywhere?
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From: killafornia
ive been searching for 10% Eth. at my local pumps and cant find any.not that i want any.but id like to know where it is.even asked the workers inside..i dont speak much middle eastern( well none) but i dont think they knew any thing about this so im still searching..where would this be identifyed at the station..im in california..bay area..is it not big out here yet or what cuz if CALIFORNIA KNOWS how to make us poor theyd do this to us.
Originally Posted by BREAKPARTS
ive been searching for 10% Eth. at my local pumps and cant find any.not that i want any.but id like to know where it is.even asked the workers inside..i dont speak much middle eastern( well none) but i dont think they knew any thing about this so im still searching..where would this be identifyed at the station..im in california..bay area..is it not big out here yet or what cuz if CALIFORNIA KNOWS how to make us poor theyd do this to us.
because the people inside wont know.
and theres no law requiring anyone to post if its in there or not... (not to mention, doing so would be suicidal for that station. lol)
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From: killafornia
I have looked at every sticker,sign ect.at the pump.searched high and low for anything to tell me..no signs of it anywhere.valero,shell,76,chevron,quick stop, and even asked inside...well dosent hurt right.....cuz i was tuned on cheap valero gas not knowing about this ethanol situation. and would like to know if its 10% e or not.how can i find out..others in this poll have said its stated at there pump.
"You do realize that corn is not the only source of ethanol. Eventually the price per gallon will go down. Right now it costs about 7 times more to produce a gallon of ethanol from corn than it does sugar cane."
The problem with ethanol is that it still takes fossil fuels to create it. The mash that is fermented into ethanol has to be heated using mass quantities of natural gas.
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From: Anheuser Busch, Houston Texas
MPFD you are right, but cellulose derived would get around the climate part, and to an extent fertilizer etc. Definately right on with the natural gas problem, that's BTU transfer at it's finest. The upside would be nuclear powered heating, or solar or whatever..that would be descently useful.
LSWaa - correct, but 10% is not mandated everywhere, the % is variable..non attainment zones get higher percentages.
Break - here in Htown every Exxonmobil has a big sticker on every pump that says "contains 10% ethanol." I'll take a pic if you want. And the guys inside will most likley be oblivious to the change. It makes sense that some people won't even mark it, since it is mandatory.
LSWaa - correct, but 10% is not mandated everywhere, the % is variable..non attainment zones get higher percentages.
Break - here in Htown every Exxonmobil has a big sticker on every pump that says "contains 10% ethanol." I'll take a pic if you want. And the guys inside will most likley be oblivious to the change. It makes sense that some people won't even mark it, since it is mandatory.
Originally Posted by MrDude_1
thats my point. the actual MPG change was so insignificant that i coudlnt even measure it. now ive been running the stuff for weeks now... and i still dont have a measurable MPG increase
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no matter what anyone says, it is all POLITICAL based and nothing else, we have treehuggers on one side and others on the other side, run what you want just don't force me to use the crap you think is best. Would you want me to tell YOU what religion or party you should be, i think not. poorer mileage equals more use which equals more polution (even if burning cleaner) and going to e10 or exx won't wean us or anyone else from oil for more years than anyone is alive on this forum. nuff said, don't like my opinion who cares since that is all anything anyone says is their opinion of the facts they have at hand and want to sell, either side makes no difference. 
