Is E85 Really a Good Deal for Performance?
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From: Wichita, Ks
Is E85 Really a Good Deal for Performance? Some magazines have touted E85 for its higher octane numbers. However, the energy content of Ethanol is less than gasoline. It takes more E85 to produce a given number of BTU's than with gas. The Ethanol derived from corn also requires a lot of government subsidies in order to make the price anywhere near competitive with gasoline. If the subsidies were pulled, Ethanol would not be very affordable.
But forgetting the sustainability and economic issues related to E85, do you think that it has any real advantage in a performance application?
Steve
But forgetting the sustainability and economic issues related to E85, do you think that it has any real advantage in a performance application?
Steve
I keep thinking about changing my truck over to E85. In my case I need 93 octane to run my truck at 12-15 psi, if I run E85 I could run the boost up to increase power. The downside is I would need more fuel to do the same work, but the fuel is about .50 cheaper per gallon so that may be a wash.
To take full advantage of the E85 I would need to up my comp ratio, it is currently only 8.2-1 which is low it seems for E85. I would also need a bigger turbo to take full advantage!!!
It does have me thinking!
Kurt
To take full advantage of the E85 I would need to up my comp ratio, it is currently only 8.2-1 which is low it seems for E85. I would also need a bigger turbo to take full advantage!!!
It does have me thinking!
Kurt
Teching In
Joined: Dec 2006
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From: Crown Point, IN
Yes E85 is a great performance fuel.
Since the gasoline engine performance is MASS AIR limited you must look at the benefits per unit of air. As a summary, you will be able to extract slightly more energy for the same airflow rate with E85
E85 is slightly more dense than gasoline yet has less energy content per mass.
Cons to E85 in an automotive application are:
1. High corrosion resistant fuel system required
2. Much higher flowrate of fuel required
3. Lower Fuel economy (low BSFC values comapred to gasoline)
4. Cold start problems (lower vapor pressure)
5. Electrically conductive.. (not good)
Pro's to E85 in an automotive application
1. Higher octane rating (great for higher compression, boosted vehicles) approx 100-105
2. Air Fuel ratio. We all know E85 has less energy content per mass.. BUT you can combust more mass of fuel with the same mass of air. Stoich of Gas = 14.7:1, Stoich of E85 = 9.7:1.. And peak power on both comes from richer than stoich mixtures.
3. Cheaper than running race gas
Since the gasoline engine performance is MASS AIR limited you must look at the benefits per unit of air. As a summary, you will be able to extract slightly more energy for the same airflow rate with E85
E85 is slightly more dense than gasoline yet has less energy content per mass.
Cons to E85 in an automotive application are:
1. High corrosion resistant fuel system required
2. Much higher flowrate of fuel required
3. Lower Fuel economy (low BSFC values comapred to gasoline)
4. Cold start problems (lower vapor pressure)
5. Electrically conductive.. (not good)
Pro's to E85 in an automotive application
1. Higher octane rating (great for higher compression, boosted vehicles) approx 100-105
2. Air Fuel ratio. We all know E85 has less energy content per mass.. BUT you can combust more mass of fuel with the same mass of air. Stoich of Gas = 14.7:1, Stoich of E85 = 9.7:1.. And peak power on both comes from richer than stoich mixtures.
3. Cheaper than running race gas
6 & 8 Second Club
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From: Illinois, RT 66 dragway area
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Yes, it's a great idea and value.
It has ~107 octane for $1.90ish, it does use 2x more fuel, but it's 85% or more made in America, and 108 octane race fuel costs more than $4.00 around here.
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Yes, it's a great idea and value.
It has ~107 octane for $1.90ish, it does use 2x more fuel, but it's 85% or more made in America, and 108 octane race fuel costs more than $4.00 around here.
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Staging Lane
Joined: Aug 2004
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yup- it works great. N/A guys have minimal gains hp wise, but it is generally way cheaper than premium and the inside of your engine is quite a bit cleaner (alot less carbon build up, emissions significantly lower, etc.) It may or may not be the answer, but it sure is a great premium fuel substitute. We've done quite a few (500+ as we speak) and have had no detrimental effects. www.runE85.com
just made 647 to the tire on an '05 goat w/ a 402 and 8 psi D1sc last week...
for forced induction guys it is worth 15-25+ more than premium just changing to good fuel & tune...
FYI- pure E85 is 105 octane, blended to 70% in the "winter" months depending on where you are located... it carries a 101 octane rating...
just made 647 to the tire on an '05 goat w/ a 402 and 8 psi D1sc last week...
for forced induction guys it is worth 15-25+ more than premium just changing to good fuel & tune...
FYI- pure E85 is 105 octane, blended to 70% in the "winter" months depending on where you are located... it carries a 101 octane rating...
Registered User
Joined: Apr 2007
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You may find the follwowing artilces interesting:
http://www.o2-technology.com/tech/E8...ynoResults.pdf
http://www.o2-technology.com/tech/Lambda.pdf
http://www.o2-technology.com/tech/Ni...lChemistry.pdf
Enjoy,
Brent Dyer
O2 Technology
http://www.o2-technology.com/tech/E8...ynoResults.pdf
http://www.o2-technology.com/tech/Lambda.pdf
http://www.o2-technology.com/tech/Ni...lChemistry.pdf
Enjoy,
Brent Dyer
O2 Technology
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TECH Resident
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Originally Posted by Steve Bryant
But forgetting the sustainability and economic issues related to E85, do you think that it has any real advantage in a performance application?
Steve
Steve
While true that E85 requires approx 30% more fuel than a compareable gasoline tuneup on the same exact engine the increase in octane rating allows a forced induction engine to produce more usable power across the rpm band safely. The vaporization of E85 will improve the VE% of both N/A and FI engines due to a denser intake charge which also has the effect of decreasing the occurance of preignition from high charge temps.
Now if the engine is built for exclusive E85 use then some of the efficiency lost from the fuel can be regianed with more aggressive compression ratios and ignition timing, or smaller engines running at a higher boost level.
Now this is just purely speculation but I believe E85 can also be more consistent from tank to tank during a particular season because it does not rely on lighter aromatics to enhance octane and E85 has a very low vapor pressure which of course makes cold start more difficult.
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Staging Lane
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 73
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www.e85fuel.com
I assume you are from New Jersey where supply is limited at this time...
I assume you are from New Jersey where supply is limited at this time...
Last edited by rubbersidedown; Apr 6, 2007 at 10:41 AM.
We have been messing around with E85 and turbos for the last year and have had good results. We haven't lost a fuel pump, o-ring or any fuel related rubber piece in a year, we have two cars that are daily driven. We built a turbo Mustang over the winter with a pretty basic 383 and AFR heads, we put a T6 88mm turbo with E85 and a Snow Performance boost cooler. We made 1017hp with 17psi of boost, with 1.17 correction factor, we live at 6000 feet, the air stinks. We took the car to the track a couple weeks ago and ran 8.54 at 160 with a 1.47 sixty and 133mph in the eight. The converter was too tight and we had too much gear in it. In my opinion the stuff works and cheap too.
On The Tree
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 122
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Originally Posted by O2 Tech
You may find the follwowing artilces interesting:
http://www.o2-technology.com/tech/E8...ynoResults.pdf
http://www.o2-technology.com/tech/Lambda.pdf
http://www.o2-technology.com/tech/Ni...lChemistry.pdf
Enjoy,
Brent Dyer
O2 Technology
http://www.o2-technology.com/tech/E8...ynoResults.pdf
http://www.o2-technology.com/tech/Lambda.pdf
http://www.o2-technology.com/tech/Ni...lChemistry.pdf
Enjoy,
Brent Dyer
O2 Technology
The reason the subsidies are needed is because of the lack of refining/shipping/pipeline capabilities.
Brazil is a good example of gov't subsidies being used for a period of time in order for the infrastructure to catch up. They no longer need to subsidize ethanol production and have eliminated the need for ALL foreign oil.
Brazil is a good example of gov't subsidies being used for a period of time in order for the infrastructure to catch up. They no longer need to subsidize ethanol production and have eliminated the need for ALL foreign oil.
6 & 8 Second Club
Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 2,284
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From: Illinois, RT 66 dragway area
.
I'm not the expert, but I have a dozen buddies that run alcohol. I also have done a lot of asking and reading on E-100 & E-85. The steel will not like E-85 at all and the aluminum will be close behind.
The Pro-Mod guys that run alcohol & alum tanks store them with gas or drained & rinsed. I don't know anyone that runs steel lines (I believe the hat lines are stainless steel & the direct port are soft lines). They put some race gas in the aluminum tank for transporting to dilute the alcohol.
I believe you will also want to increase the boost some to build the actual compression. One more thing E-85 which will also help cool your intake air temp, can take more boost. That you better check with a real expert, big difference between doing and reading. C-16 is very good fuel.
If I saved them, I have several stories & tech articles also about racing with E-85 & E-100. I will post if I find them. I for one always use Bio-diesel when I run accross it and have been bugging my wife to trade in her '05 for a '07 which is a E-85 ready car.
I'm all for anything to give money to american farmers & NOT the foreign countries that take our money, aid & military protection and treat us and consider us like crap.
.
I'm not the expert, but I have a dozen buddies that run alcohol. I also have done a lot of asking and reading on E-100 & E-85. The steel will not like E-85 at all and the aluminum will be close behind.
The Pro-Mod guys that run alcohol & alum tanks store them with gas or drained & rinsed. I don't know anyone that runs steel lines (I believe the hat lines are stainless steel & the direct port are soft lines). They put some race gas in the aluminum tank for transporting to dilute the alcohol.
I believe you will also want to increase the boost some to build the actual compression. One more thing E-85 which will also help cool your intake air temp, can take more boost. That you better check with a real expert, big difference between doing and reading. C-16 is very good fuel.
If I saved them, I have several stories & tech articles also about racing with E-85 & E-100. I will post if I find them. I for one always use Bio-diesel when I run accross it and have been bugging my wife to trade in her '05 for a '07 which is a E-85 ready car.
I'm all for anything to give money to american farmers & NOT the foreign countries that take our money, aid & military protection and treat us and consider us like crap.
.
mrdragster1970 is correct about mixing a small amount of gas with the alcohol. It goes a long way in protecting your fuel system from the corrosive affects of alcohol. In my case I run Methanol in a twin turbo street strip car which is even more corrosive than Ethanol with no adverse effects to date (other than some swelling rubber components, which will be replaced soon).