Titanium Alloy for a block?
06-06-2008, 12:01 AM
#22
I like this topic! 
just a thought.... but doesnt the metal have to be able to expand and contract (ie pistons)? Hense the use of iron and aluminum. With Ti, does it expand and contract the same? Can it handle being heated and cooled as any times. Were still looking for longevity, not just performance here.
For some reason i thought Ti was more brittle, thus not as able to handle heating and cooling (but maytbe that for more extreme tempatures). Again, this could be resolved with using another metal as an insert and piston. Also bringing up the question, how hot is the bottom side of the piston? cool enough that the rod could be Ti?
Im no expert... and im sure ive just made more ?'s then answers...
just a thought.... but doesnt the metal have to be able to expand and contract (ie pistons)? Hense the use of iron and aluminum. With Ti, does it expand and contract the same? Can it handle being heated and cooled as any times. Were still looking for longevity, not just performance here.
For some reason i thought Ti was more brittle, thus not as able to handle heating and cooling (but maytbe that for more extreme tempatures). Again, this could be resolved with using another metal as an insert and piston. Also bringing up the question, how hot is the bottom side of the piston? cool enough that the rod could be Ti?
Im no expert... and im sure ive just made more ?'s then answers...
06-06-2008, 06:48 AM
#23
Ti retains so much heat and holds it for a long time. I wouldnt want to have a ti piston due to detonation. same thing with the block. I would have to have such a huge cooling system to maintain itself it would reduce the benifits of weight savings.
06-06-2008, 12:07 PM
#24
I like this topic!
just a thought.... but doesnt the metal have to be able to expand and contract (ie pistons)? Hense the use of iron and aluminum. With Ti, does it expand and contract the same? Can it handle being heated and cooled as any times. Were still looking for longevity, not just performance here.
For some reason i thought Ti was more brittle, thus not as able to handle heating and cooling (but maytbe that for more extreme tempatures). Again, this could be resolved with using another metal as an insert and piston. Also bringing up the question, how hot is the bottom side of the piston? cool enough that the rod could be Ti?
Im no expert... and im sure ive just made more ?'s then answers...
just a thought.... but doesnt the metal have to be able to expand and contract (ie pistons)? Hense the use of iron and aluminum. With Ti, does it expand and contract the same? Can it handle being heated and cooled as any times. Were still looking for longevity, not just performance here.
For some reason i thought Ti was more brittle, thus not as able to handle heating and cooling (but maytbe that for more extreme tempatures). Again, this could be resolved with using another metal as an insert and piston. Also bringing up the question, how hot is the bottom side of the piston? cool enough that the rod could be Ti?
Im no expert... and im sure ive just made more ?'s then answers...
A substance can't take longer to dissipate heat than it takes to absorb the heat. If it takes a long time to cool back down then it will take a long amount of time to warm back up, respectively. You will notice a difference in time though because of differing amounts of work being done. To keep everything happy you'd have to have a cooling system adequate for keeping up with the work being done.... but wait.... they already do that.
06-10-2008, 06:56 PM
#26
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Ti does have the highest strength/weight ratio of any structural material, buuuut....
All too often, the shape of a part matters as much or more to its strength than the material does. For instance, the stiffness of a panel is proportional to something like the 4th power of its thickness. Therefore, if the panel is made thicker without being made heavier, its strength will increase tremendously with no increase in weight... Thus was born foam and honey-comb cored composite sandwhich panels. Aluminum panels can be both stiffer and stronger than an equivalent weight of steel, by a big margin.
So I think that titanium pistons would end up being a good bit heavier than aluminum pistons. They would also hold more heat. Ti can take a LOT higher temps than aluminum, but well tuned engines don't generate temps that aluminum can't handle anyway...
06-10-2008, 10:15 PM
#27
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Don't overstate the problem. If it were that bad, GM wouldn't be able to put Ti rods into production in the LS7 (and the LS9?). The F-22 wouldn't be able to use a Ti casting for the wing box, etc.
06-11-2008, 02:40 AM
#28
The Dark Side of Wil some very good points there mate! 
a Ti block would be great, but i think other areas of the engine should be looked at first. for example the heads. for years the HIGH BHP gusy have had problems with lifting heads and blowing water. as tuning has got better and with people doing 6bolt conversion things have got better but there is still a problem.
what im getting at is it is easy to make the big bits strong, you normaly just use more material or a diffrent one, but what about the little bits? these are noramlly the weak areas.
what im getting at is whats the point in having a Ti block that can take 5000bhp and 50++PSI if you are still running stock heads and lifting them at 20psi????
Just my thoughts
Chris.
a Ti block would be great, but i think other areas of the engine should be looked at first. for example the heads. for years the HIGH BHP gusy have had problems with lifting heads and blowing water. as tuning has got better and with people doing 6bolt conversion things have got better but there is still a problem.
what im getting at is it is easy to make the big bits strong, you normaly just use more material or a diffrent one, but what about the little bits? these are noramlly the weak areas.
what im getting at is whats the point in having a Ti block that can take 5000bhp and 50++PSI if you are still running stock heads and lifting them at 20psi????
Just my thoughts
Chris.
06-12-2008, 12:59 AM
#29
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Thread Starter
The Dark Side of Wil some very good points there mate!
a Ti block would be great, but i think other areas of the engine should be looked at first. for example the heads. for years the HIGH BHP gusy have had problems with lifting heads and blowing water. as tuning has got better and with people doing 6bolt conversion things have got better but there is still a problem.
what im getting at is it is easy to make the big bits strong, you normaly just use more material or a diffrent one, but what about the little bits? these are noramlly the weak areas.
what im getting at is whats the point in having a Ti block that can take 5000bhp and 50++PSI if you are still running stock heads and lifting them at 20psi????
Just my thoughts
Chris.
a Ti block would be great, but i think other areas of the engine should be looked at first. for example the heads. for years the HIGH BHP gusy have had problems with lifting heads and blowing water. as tuning has got better and with people doing 6bolt conversion things have got better but there is still a problem.
what im getting at is it is easy to make the big bits strong, you normaly just use more material or a diffrent one, but what about the little bits? these are noramlly the weak areas.
what im getting at is whats the point in having a Ti block that can take 5000bhp and 50++PSI if you are still running stock heads and lifting them at 20psi????
Just my thoughts
Chris.
well thats my thoughts exactly but i prolly meant to say a full titanium block including heads, pistons, rods, crank etc.
i would like to see how well a ti piston holds under a top fuel engine's pressure.
06-13-2008, 05:55 AM
#30
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In order for that to be the case, Ti would have to show a benefit commensurate with its cost. They already tear the engine down between runs and replace parts. Longevity doesn't help them win races. Extra weight doesn't help them win races.
For the work that goes into their cylinder heads, Ti cylinder heads would probably be the best bet. Current aluminum heads start to melt between the valves and between the exhaust valve and the spark plug after a couple of runs. Ti would last a lot longer in that app.
Not sure pistons would matter, as they have to replace the bottom end bearings and rings frequently (not sure if those are every run, although they probably are).
For the work that goes into their cylinder heads, Ti cylinder heads would probably be the best bet. Current aluminum heads start to melt between the valves and between the exhaust valve and the spark plug after a couple of runs. Ti would last a lot longer in that app.
Not sure pistons would matter, as they have to replace the bottom end bearings and rings frequently (not sure if those are every run, although they probably are).
