Titanium Alloy for a block?
05-31-2008, 01:00 AM
#1
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Titanium Alloy for a block? in the search of near perfect material for a engine block to be made from, it struck me that (of course besides the cost ) is there any reason NOT to use titanium alloy as a material in a block?
would that be the best and strongest material?
or is a CGI (compact graphite iron)
or billet aluminum better/stronger?
thats for the info fellas
would that be the best and strongest material?
or is a CGI (compact graphite iron)
or billet aluminum better/stronger?
thats for the info fellas
05-31-2008, 02:08 AM
#2
6AL4V, its the most common, I imagine its readily available and probably the cheaper of the alloys. Strongest would probably be some metal matrix composites that may or may not exist yet 
05-31-2008, 04:55 PM
#3
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u think the 6AL4V (Titanium + 6% Aluminum + 4% Vanadium) would be far stronger than the CGI or Billet Aluminum?
how well does that titanium alloy stand up to heat such as an internal combustion engine like ours?
how well does that titanium alloy stand up to heat such as an internal combustion engine like ours?
06-01-2008, 05:08 PM
#6
Top fuel uses billet aluminum blocks sans water jackets. They seem to hold up pretty well to an aluminum rod coming apart and smashing itself to pieces.
If you decided to make a titanium block it would still have to have steel liners. The only time I see a custom block like that to be advantageous is if you're using it as a stressed member. Like, if you were building a formula style car with the engine in the back, you could use the block there to be "stressed" (if designed for it) so you could bolt your suspension to the motor saving weight.
If you decided to make a titanium block it would still have to have steel liners. The only time I see a custom block like that to be advantageous is if you're using it as a stressed member. Like, if you were building a formula style car with the engine in the back, you could use the block there to be "stressed" (if designed for it) so you could bolt your suspension to the motor saving weight.
06-01-2008, 10:25 PM
#7
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Top fuel uses billet aluminum blocks sans water jackets. They seem to hold up pretty well to an aluminum rod coming apart and smashing itself to pieces.
If you decided to make a titanium block it would still have to have steel liners. The only time I see a custom block like that to be advantageous is if you're using it as a stressed member. Like, if you were building a formula style car with the engine in the back, you could use the block there to be "stressed" (if designed for it) so you could bolt your suspension to the motor saving weight.
If you decided to make a titanium block it would still have to have steel liners. The only time I see a custom block like that to be advantageous is if you're using it as a stressed member. Like, if you were building a formula style car with the engine in the back, you could use the block there to be "stressed" (if designed for it) so you could bolt your suspension to the motor saving weight.
well i thought top fuel blocks only last about 5 passes or so?
wouldnt titanium last a whole lot longer?
steel liners? you mean as sleeves in the block?
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06-02-2008, 12:15 PM
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06-02-2008, 01:00 PM
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06-02-2008, 05:16 PM
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The F-22 uses a hot isostatically pressed (HIPed) titanium casting as the primary structural member of the wing box.
Rolled 6Al4V has about the same strength as high strength steel, but is about 1/3 lighter. Not sure how strong cast Ti is.
Aluminum blocks are plenty good the way cars are put together nowadays. BMW is even using magnesium cast around an aluminum structure in some of their blocks. That's with alusil aluminum bores.
Ti, AIUI, does have a tendency to gall so it might not be the best for a bore liner, but if the hone and oil retention were right, it might be just fine. There are also ceramic coatings which can be used as bore wear surfaces.
Because of block deformation, extremely high output engines can make more power with iron blocks than aluminum blocks. In most cases the extra power is not worth the weight penalty. A titanium block might change that balance.
Rolled 6Al4V has about the same strength as high strength steel, but is about 1/3 lighter. Not sure how strong cast Ti is.
Aluminum blocks are plenty good the way cars are put together nowadays. BMW is even using magnesium cast around an aluminum structure in some of their blocks. That's with alusil aluminum bores.
Ti, AIUI, does have a tendency to gall so it might not be the best for a bore liner, but if the hone and oil retention were right, it might be just fine. There are also ceramic coatings which can be used as bore wear surfaces.
Because of block deformation, extremely high output engines can make more power with iron blocks than aluminum blocks. In most cases the extra power is not worth the weight penalty. A titanium block might change that balance.
06-03-2008, 12:05 AM
#16
The F-22 uses a hot isostatically pressed (HIPed) titanium casting as the primary structural member of the wing box.
Rolled 6Al4V has about the same strength as high strength steel, but is about 1/3 lighter. Not sure how strong cast Ti is.
Aluminum blocks are plenty good the way cars are put together nowadays. BMW is even using magnesium cast around an aluminum structure in some of their blocks. That's with alusil aluminum bores.
Ti, AIUI, does have a tendency to gall so it might not be the best for a bore liner, but if the hone and oil retention were right, it might be just fine. There are also ceramic coatings which can be used as bore wear surfaces.
Because of block deformation, extremely high output engines can make more power with iron blocks than aluminum blocks. In most cases the extra power is not worth the weight penalty. A titanium block might change that balance.
Rolled 6Al4V has about the same strength as high strength steel, but is about 1/3 lighter. Not sure how strong cast Ti is.
Aluminum blocks are plenty good the way cars are put together nowadays. BMW is even using magnesium cast around an aluminum structure in some of their blocks. That's with alusil aluminum bores.
Ti, AIUI, does have a tendency to gall so it might not be the best for a bore liner, but if the hone and oil retention were right, it might be just fine. There are also ceramic coatings which can be used as bore wear surfaces.
Because of block deformation, extremely high output engines can make more power with iron blocks than aluminum blocks. In most cases the extra power is not worth the weight penalty. A titanium block might change that balance.
I too was concerned about the galling, I think a steel liner would still have to be used. Its also possible to use one of those ceramic coatings you were talking about. When I was on UTA's Formula SAE team we were testing titanium rotors as a way to reduce unsprung mass. We had HORRIFIC galling until we started using some of those ceramic coatings. I just don't think that kind of coating would be adequate to sustained steel piston ring wear.
Gangbang - the CGI cast iron has a higher melting point than both aluminum or titanium. Especially in the presence of high nickel content.
06-03-2008, 01:38 AM
#17
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so cgi takes the heat vote
but how well do u guys think titanium pistons might hold under top fuel conditions?
the titanium valves from the Z06 have done great so far.
but how well do u guys think titanium pistons might hold under top fuel conditions?
the titanium valves from the Z06 have done great so far.
06-03-2008, 02:09 AM
#18
I got a chance a year ago to talk to a certain top fuel team (will remain nameless so I don't embarrass them) for a few hours. So, naturally I started asking questions.
Me - "Who on the team designed the chassis?"
Team - "We actually had ________ Chassis Shop do it."
Me - "Who designed the wing that yall are using?"
Team - "There's only 2 wing manufacturers, we picked the one that was available at the time."
Me - "Which one's better for downforce/drag ratio?"
Team - "The other one, but we can't get it"
Me - "Have you done any analysis on it?"
Team - "No, not really, everyone either uses one or the other"
I could go on, basically wound up getting a few hours to just ask questions and they seemed willing to answer. I don't want to make them sound dumb or anything, infact they're quite the opposite. But I get the feeling that they don't always know why something works when they make a change. 40 years of evolution and expiramenting has IMO helped them out imensely.
06-03-2008, 05:55 AM
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While lighter than steel/iron, Ti is a good bit heavier than aluminum. Ti pistons would increase recip mass a lot, which would in turn require stronger rods, reduce responsiveness and max RPM, etc.
06-03-2008, 11:47 AM
#20
Just because its heavier than aluminum doesn't mean it will weigh any more. If its significantly stronger (in this case it is) you can make the casting/forging MUCH thinner. You might actually wind up with something that weighs less.