Wet Sanded some of the WS6 today
08-20-2009, 02:37 PM
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Factory paint on F-bodys is generally thin,all factory paint is thinner than say a repaint would be.Humans vs machine if you will. I wouldn't wet sand ANY car with out proper clear readings from a Paint depth gauge. You might not of sanded thru the clear but you very well could have compromised the life of the paint. Wet sanding really should be left to the pro's.
08-20-2009, 02:39 PM
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Just keep in mind there is only two coats of clear on these cars. You might want to use some Dawn dishwashing soap to help Lubricate the panel when you wet sand. Also I would recommend using a sanding block, this will help you keep it flat. DO NOT get near the corners or any radius you can take off tooo much tooo fast. I always have use on of those window washer Squeegees that have the sponge on one side and the squeegee on the other side. Use the sponge side to wet the panel and wipe the water off with the squeegee, you can then see how much orange peel you are removing. You need to stop sanding when most of the orange peel is flat.
Becarefull and good luck
Bill
Becarefull and good luck
Bill
08-20-2009, 02:49 PM
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Just keep in mind there is only two coats of clear on these cars. You might want to use some Dawn dishwashing soap to help Lubricate the panel when you wet sand. Also I would recommend using a sanding block, this will help you keep it flat. DO NOT get near the corners or any radius you can take off tooo much tooo fast. I always have use on of those window washer Squeegees that have the sponge on one side and the squeegee on the other side. Use the sponge side to wet the panel and wipe the water off with the squeegee, you can then see how much orange peel you are removing. You need to stop sanding when most of the orange peel is flat.
Becarefull and good luck
Bill
Becarefull and good luck
Bill
Thanks bud I may go pick one of them up, I see it like this if I do **** my paint up its a lesson learned and I will have to repaint, the car will be resprayed sometime in my life as I have ZERO plans of getting rid of it. its a learning experience and I think I am doing really well pics in 2 mins
08-20-2009, 10:06 PM
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Everything I have been told was to sand in an overlapping circular motion, just as you are doing, letting the paper do the work. Long lines makes it easier to have gouging.
Some add a little dishsoap (to help the paper not stick) in a bucket of water and soak the paper and remember to keep rinsing with the same mixture in a squeeze bottle as your sanding to remove debri that can scratch the paint.
I have done 3 of my GM vehicles and never sanded through the clear, just keep in mind that you do not want to do a lot of compounding later on in life, so keep the paint nice.
I know it's tempting to sand right to the gaps and edges but remember that the buffer is quick to cut the clear down in those areas so I tend to stay a little further away than what I see in the pics.
It looks like you are doing very well. After the buff hit it with a swirl remover and your favorite wax/polish and you will be very happy!
08-20-2009, 10:48 PM
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[QUOTE=DriftR;12103283]I believe this statement needs to be qualified by others. ^
Body shops might tell you to do it that way, but not a true detailer. Here's part of a good article by a reputable source.Please give attn to #5. It's the way i've always done it.
Wet-Sanding (Colour Sanding)
A sound understanding of the proper technique and the correct process will produce excellent results even with a mediocre product. A quality product used without the proper surface preparation or application technique will never obtain a satisfactory result. Using the proper methodology (surface preparation, using a quality product, along with the correct application technique) will ensure an excellent result.
Skill Level / Experience
Some methods described may be beyond the capabilities of the average detailer or enthusiast; in this case we strongly encourage the reader to consult a professional detailer or body shop concerning the matters discussed herein.
Liability
The writer assumes no responsibility, expressed or implied, due to misuse or misinterpretation of the information or methods used, or for any vehicle damage or injury that may occur due to the suggestions and information offered.
Product Quality and Technique
Proceed with this in mind; the products you use constitute a very small factor in the equation. Methodology and technique constitute 95%; the reasoning behind the choice of quality products is to eliminate any limiting factors, thus enabling you to place emphasis on technique used.
The paint sections / panels that are difficult and involve risk are usually those that are close to the edges of a panel (as this is where the paint is usually thinnest) or highly contoured areas. Flat areas like the trunk, hood or roof involve minimal risk.
Orange peel - it is possible to wet-sand orange peel, but if you try to eliminate it completely you risk severely compromising the paint thickness. Wet-sanding levels the paint (and removes orange peel, harsh acidic or alkaline marks, etc) it removes approximately 0.025- 0.003 Mils (a Mil is 1/1000th of an inch) of paint from the vehicle using 2000 -grit finishing paper, Be aware that a clear coat has a thickness of 1.5 – 2.0 Mils, removing more that 0.3 – 0.5 Mils of clear coat may cause premature paint film failure. As a point of reference a sheet of Saran wrap measures 0.95 Mils
A digital paint thickness gauge will allow you to measure the film thickness of the paint system which includes the e-coat, primer, base coat (colour) and clear coat, total thickness is usually 4.0 – 6.0 Mils. Check the paint system both before and after wet sanding and this will tell you how much paint has been removed.
For these reasons all car manufacturers now specify that the paint thickness be measured in 0.1mil, or 1/1000th of an inch before and after any wet sanding or buffing. The following are the maximum allowable clear coat reductions the major USA car manufacturers will allow; Chrysler- 0.5 mils, Ford – 0.3 mils, GM – 0.5 mils
Paint thickness gauge - PosiTest DFT Combo; Measures paint on any metal, including steel and aluminium, a popular choice given many cars have both steel and aluminium. It automatically recognizes the material and takes a measurement- Paint Gages, Paint Meters, Mil Gages for measuring Paint Thickness on Automotive Cars, Trucks and Vehicles.
Sanding Prep- wash paint surface thoroughly to remove any surface contamination, fill a spray bottle with paint cleaner/ degreaser (DuPont PrepSol II™ to remove old wax and soluble contaminates, spray onto a 100% cotton micro fibre towel (DF Towels - DF Concours products) and clean the surface. If you don’t wipe the surface before you sand you will not remove the contaminants, you will force (sand) them into the paint surface
Methodology
1.Put a drop or two of Woolite® liquid in a clean bucket and fill it with clean water.
2.You will need 6-inch x 4-inch sheets of Nikkens™ 2000, 2500 and 3000 - grit finishing paper (1000 and 1500 grit is also available, but they are usually used on single stage paint systems, you can start with any grade of finishing paper according to the condition of your paint film surface, but as always use the least abrasive first) next cut or tear three or four pieces of the finishing papers in half and place them in the bucket also.
3.Leave them in the bucket of water for about 20 -30 minutes to soften their edges. Keep the surface wet at all times and sand in short strokes, applying light to moderate pressure with your hand or block held flat.. After going over the finish with 2000- proceed to 2500- and then switch to 3000-grit finishing paper and sand once more.
4.While you're waiting for the paper to soften, wash your vehicle too completely to remove any grit or dust, and then gently dry it with clean terry cloth towels. Next, take a tack rag and wipe over the paint surfaces one final time to make sure the paint is absolutely clean.
A small particle of grit can make deep scratches in even the hardest finish. If you're working outdoors, wet down the surrounding area to keep dust under control, and keep a garden hose running with a trickle of water on the surface at all times.
5.Wrap a piece of the softened Nikkens™ 2000 - grit finishing paper (or whatever grade your paint surface requires) around a Unigrit Sanding Block (see also alternative products) if you're going to be working broad, flat surfaces. Otherwise, you can just fold the sandpaper in thirds. Keep wetting the surface of the vehicle in the area where you're sanding and keep it wet while you work. Place your hand flat on the sanding block / finishing paper at all times and start sanding in short, crisscross strokes. Avoid applying excessive pressure, keep the sanding block flat or you’ll gouge the paint surface and never sand with just your fingertips, as you'll create grooves if you do.
6.Only move the finishing paper and block about 4 - inches back and forth, if you do make a scratch, it will be a short one and easier to buff out. Using shorter, quicker strokes requires about the same amount of time as the longer sweeps most people are used to. Besides, you shouldn't worry about time and have a lot of patient when color-sanding.
7.A clean rubber squeegee (3M™ Wetordry™ Rubber Squeegee, P/N 05517, 2 -inches x 4 -inches) is the best tool for checking your progress. Swipe the squeegee across the sanded surface periodically to clear it of water. Only when you have the surface completely free of any suggestion of orange peel or imperfections are you ready for the next step.
8.Proceed to the next level of grit and repeat the process until all the coarser scratches are eliminated and finish with 3000 - grit finishing paper in order to remove all of the very fine scratches, only when the paint has a consistently level, smooth, satin finish should you continue to the polishing stage.
Always start with the least abrasive combination, i.e. a machine polish and the least aggressive foam / wool pad. If that combination doesn't remove the imperfections, using the same machine polish and change to a more aggressive pad, if the surface imperfections remain, then step-up the abrasive polish and use the least next level (abrasive)only when the paint has a consistently level, smooth, satin finish should you continue to the polishing stage.
Final polishing (Menzerna Final Polish II) with a grey / black foam pad, speed 1500 RPM
Bi-directional sanding- if you are sanding in a \\\ pattern with the 2000, then sand in a /// pattern with the 2500, once all your lines are opposite then you know you have completely covered the area. (See also Polishing, Spit Shining, Colour, Depth and Clarity, Legal Stuff,
Wet Sanding / Polishing)
1. Aluminium Oxide exhibits a high degree of friability. This means that when heat and pressure are applied it fragments. This is highly desirable because when it creates new sharp edges, this self-renewing property allows aluminium oxide to last longer than most other finish papers.
2. Finishing paper quality - cheaper paper will induce deeper sanding scratches, which will be more difficult to remove
Alternative products - Water-fed Soft Block –
Reference source- Eastwood Technical Library - Eastwood Company Home Page
Glasurit, Advice on Paint and Paintwork Defects - Glasurit
Colour Sanding and Polishing - Welcome to System One APS., System Ones products official web site for all your System One needs, the fastest way to polish paint.
Information resource-
Automotive Detailing Inside & Out; a Knowledge Base for the Perfectionist– by Jon Miller
© TOGWT ™ Ltd Copyright 2002-2008, all rights reserved
Detailing Articles
This is one of is one of a series of unbiased and informative, knowledge based, subject specific articles, which are dedicated to the automotive detailing enthusiast or professional detailer in search of development and further education
Copyright Protection and intellectual property rights-© This work is registered with the UK Copyright Service that supports international copyright protection by securing independent evidence that will help prove originality and ownership in any future claims or disputes.
All original material is copyright, unless otherwise state (1) it may be copied and distributed for non-commercial purposes only provided that you retain all copyright and other proprietary notices contained in the original material, (2) the information is copied in full with no changes unless prior written agreement is obtained from TOGWT, and a reference to © TOGWT ™ is included, any unauthorized use of these materials may violate copyrights and/or trademarks
Body shops might tell you to do it that way, but not a true detailer. Here's part of a good article by a reputable source.Please give attn to #5. It's the way i've always done it.
Wet-Sanding (Colour Sanding)
A sound understanding of the proper technique and the correct process will produce excellent results even with a mediocre product. A quality product used without the proper surface preparation or application technique will never obtain a satisfactory result. Using the proper methodology (surface preparation, using a quality product, along with the correct application technique) will ensure an excellent result.
Skill Level / Experience
Some methods described may be beyond the capabilities of the average detailer or enthusiast; in this case we strongly encourage the reader to consult a professional detailer or body shop concerning the matters discussed herein.
Liability
The writer assumes no responsibility, expressed or implied, due to misuse or misinterpretation of the information or methods used, or for any vehicle damage or injury that may occur due to the suggestions and information offered.
Product Quality and Technique
Proceed with this in mind; the products you use constitute a very small factor in the equation. Methodology and technique constitute 95%; the reasoning behind the choice of quality products is to eliminate any limiting factors, thus enabling you to place emphasis on technique used.
The paint sections / panels that are difficult and involve risk are usually those that are close to the edges of a panel (as this is where the paint is usually thinnest) or highly contoured areas. Flat areas like the trunk, hood or roof involve minimal risk.
Orange peel - it is possible to wet-sand orange peel, but if you try to eliminate it completely you risk severely compromising the paint thickness. Wet-sanding levels the paint (and removes orange peel, harsh acidic or alkaline marks, etc) it removes approximately 0.025- 0.003 Mils (a Mil is 1/1000th of an inch) of paint from the vehicle using 2000 -grit finishing paper, Be aware that a clear coat has a thickness of 1.5 – 2.0 Mils, removing more that 0.3 – 0.5 Mils of clear coat may cause premature paint film failure. As a point of reference a sheet of Saran wrap measures 0.95 Mils
A digital paint thickness gauge will allow you to measure the film thickness of the paint system which includes the e-coat, primer, base coat (colour) and clear coat, total thickness is usually 4.0 – 6.0 Mils. Check the paint system both before and after wet sanding and this will tell you how much paint has been removed.
For these reasons all car manufacturers now specify that the paint thickness be measured in 0.1mil, or 1/1000th of an inch before and after any wet sanding or buffing. The following are the maximum allowable clear coat reductions the major USA car manufacturers will allow; Chrysler- 0.5 mils, Ford – 0.3 mils, GM – 0.5 mils
Paint thickness gauge - PosiTest DFT Combo; Measures paint on any metal, including steel and aluminium, a popular choice given many cars have both steel and aluminium. It automatically recognizes the material and takes a measurement- Paint Gages, Paint Meters, Mil Gages for measuring Paint Thickness on Automotive Cars, Trucks and Vehicles.
Sanding Prep- wash paint surface thoroughly to remove any surface contamination, fill a spray bottle with paint cleaner/ degreaser (DuPont PrepSol II™ to remove old wax and soluble contaminates, spray onto a 100% cotton micro fibre towel (DF Towels - DF Concours products) and clean the surface. If you don’t wipe the surface before you sand you will not remove the contaminants, you will force (sand) them into the paint surface
Methodology
1.Put a drop or two of Woolite® liquid in a clean bucket and fill it with clean water.
2.You will need 6-inch x 4-inch sheets of Nikkens™ 2000, 2500 and 3000 - grit finishing paper (1000 and 1500 grit is also available, but they are usually used on single stage paint systems, you can start with any grade of finishing paper according to the condition of your paint film surface, but as always use the least abrasive first) next cut or tear three or four pieces of the finishing papers in half and place them in the bucket also.
3.Leave them in the bucket of water for about 20 -30 minutes to soften their edges. Keep the surface wet at all times and sand in short strokes, applying light to moderate pressure with your hand or block held flat.. After going over the finish with 2000- proceed to 2500- and then switch to 3000-grit finishing paper and sand once more.
4.While you're waiting for the paper to soften, wash your vehicle too completely to remove any grit or dust, and then gently dry it with clean terry cloth towels. Next, take a tack rag and wipe over the paint surfaces one final time to make sure the paint is absolutely clean.
A small particle of grit can make deep scratches in even the hardest finish. If you're working outdoors, wet down the surrounding area to keep dust under control, and keep a garden hose running with a trickle of water on the surface at all times.
5.Wrap a piece of the softened Nikkens™ 2000 - grit finishing paper (or whatever grade your paint surface requires) around a Unigrit Sanding Block (see also alternative products) if you're going to be working broad, flat surfaces. Otherwise, you can just fold the sandpaper in thirds. Keep wetting the surface of the vehicle in the area where you're sanding and keep it wet while you work. Place your hand flat on the sanding block / finishing paper at all times and start sanding in short, crisscross strokes. Avoid applying excessive pressure, keep the sanding block flat or you’ll gouge the paint surface and never sand with just your fingertips, as you'll create grooves if you do.
6.Only move the finishing paper and block about 4 - inches back and forth, if you do make a scratch, it will be a short one and easier to buff out. Using shorter, quicker strokes requires about the same amount of time as the longer sweeps most people are used to. Besides, you shouldn't worry about time and have a lot of patient when color-sanding.
7.A clean rubber squeegee (3M™ Wetordry™ Rubber Squeegee, P/N 05517, 2 -inches x 4 -inches) is the best tool for checking your progress. Swipe the squeegee across the sanded surface periodically to clear it of water. Only when you have the surface completely free of any suggestion of orange peel or imperfections are you ready for the next step.
8.Proceed to the next level of grit and repeat the process until all the coarser scratches are eliminated and finish with 3000 - grit finishing paper in order to remove all of the very fine scratches, only when the paint has a consistently level, smooth, satin finish should you continue to the polishing stage.
Always start with the least abrasive combination, i.e. a machine polish and the least aggressive foam / wool pad. If that combination doesn't remove the imperfections, using the same machine polish and change to a more aggressive pad, if the surface imperfections remain, then step-up the abrasive polish and use the least next level (abrasive)only when the paint has a consistently level, smooth, satin finish should you continue to the polishing stage.
Final polishing (Menzerna Final Polish II) with a grey / black foam pad, speed 1500 RPM
Bi-directional sanding- if you are sanding in a \\\ pattern with the 2000, then sand in a /// pattern with the 2500, once all your lines are opposite then you know you have completely covered the area. (See also Polishing, Spit Shining, Colour, Depth and Clarity, Legal Stuff,
Wet Sanding / Polishing)
1. Aluminium Oxide exhibits a high degree of friability. This means that when heat and pressure are applied it fragments. This is highly desirable because when it creates new sharp edges, this self-renewing property allows aluminium oxide to last longer than most other finish papers.
2. Finishing paper quality - cheaper paper will induce deeper sanding scratches, which will be more difficult to remove
Alternative products - Water-fed Soft Block –
Reference source- Eastwood Technical Library - Eastwood Company Home Page
Glasurit, Advice on Paint and Paintwork Defects - Glasurit
Colour Sanding and Polishing - Welcome to System One APS., System Ones products official web site for all your System One needs, the fastest way to polish paint.
Information resource-
Automotive Detailing Inside & Out; a Knowledge Base for the Perfectionist– by Jon Miller
© TOGWT ™ Ltd Copyright 2002-2008, all rights reserved
Detailing Articles
This is one of is one of a series of unbiased and informative, knowledge based, subject specific articles, which are dedicated to the automotive detailing enthusiast or professional detailer in search of development and further education
Copyright Protection and intellectual property rights-© This work is registered with the UK Copyright Service that supports international copyright protection by securing independent evidence that will help prove originality and ownership in any future claims or disputes.
All original material is copyright, unless otherwise state (1) it may be copied and distributed for non-commercial purposes only provided that you retain all copyright and other proprietary notices contained in the original material, (2) the information is copied in full with no changes unless prior written agreement is obtained from TOGWT, and a reference to © TOGWT ™ is included, any unauthorized use of these materials may violate copyrights and/or trademarks
08-21-2009, 08:31 AM
#33
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Agreed with sstg. not to knock on anybody, or any methods, but I've never been told to wet sand in a circular motion.. always criss cross or back and forth then up and down (same concept as the criss cross method).
looks very nice so far!
are you doing this with just your hand? or are you using a sanding block?
looks very nice so far!
are you doing this with just your hand? or are you using a sanding block?
08-21-2009, 09:20 AM
#34
Agreed with sstg. not to knock on anybody, or any methods, but I've never been told to wet sand in a circular motion.. always criss cross or back and forth then up and down (same concept as the criss cross method).
looks very nice so far!
are you doing this with just your hand? or are you using a sanding block?
looks very nice so far!
are you doing this with just your hand? or are you using a sanding block?
08-21-2009, 06:16 PM
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08-21-2009, 07:55 PM
#38
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Agreed with sstg. not to knock on anybody, or any methods, but I've never been told to wet sand in a circular motion.. always criss cross or back and forth then up and down (same concept as the criss cross method).
looks very nice so far!
are you doing this with just your hand? or are you using a sanding block?
looks very nice so far!
are you doing this with just your hand? or are you using a sanding block?
Very Good, short criss cross strokes... "sstg" Thanks for passing on the information, learn something new every day. I believe the full write up post will help the OP the most. Just as in my case, a little information is not always the best thing. I also would not sand without the foam block and totally forgot to mention it in my post as well.
Ahh... the benifits of LS1tech, gotta love it!
Last edited by DriftR; 08-22-2009 at 08:38 PM.
08-22-2009, 04:22 AM
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Well, I gotta say....for all the pokes folks took at you in the beginning....Looks like a Bad-*** job so far!
I can say that on one of my F-Bodies that the clear is so thin from the factory that the **** is peeling off behind the rear wheels and that's just from a little too much aggressive cleaning when the rubber sticks there after a day at the track.
Congrats on the Excellent job so far !!
I can say that on one of my F-Bodies that the clear is so thin from the factory that the **** is peeling off behind the rear wheels and that's just from a little too much aggressive cleaning when the rubber sticks there after a day at the track.
Congrats on the Excellent job so far !!
08-22-2009, 04:33 AM
#40
Haha I love how everyone get's all uptight about you wetsanding the car, then they see the pictures and it "looks so nice!" 
Looks great dude, I love that before/after shot where you can see the orange peel. I've wetsanded my fender before when I covered up a bad gouge/chip.. (obviously I had to fill it with paint) just gotta take your time. Now you can't see it at all
Looks great dude, I love that before/after shot where you can see the orange peel. I've wetsanded my fender before when I covered up a bad gouge/chip.. (obviously I had to fill it with paint) just gotta take your time. Now you can't see it at all