4L80E FMV Transgo-3 with Aftermarket hard parts - Help Please-
11-22-2008, 08:03 AM
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4L80E FMV Transgo-3 with Aftermarket hard parts - Help Please- Hi
Sorry for the super long post in advance , but i have a major problem on my hands
I have recently had a 4L80E built by a US shop (not a sponsor) but highly recommended by people on this forum , and shipped to me in Australia.
It was installed last week and to my horror shock the auto is playing up in more then one way and my original builder is baffled at the symptoms.
Due to large shipping cost to the US and back it is not an option to send it back.
The Auto was tested in a car before it was shipped and worked fine.
Drive around the block, I was told.
I was also told by the US shop that it has done a few 4L80E stick shifts before with no problems.
I have given the box to a local trany shop to rip apart and hopefully with the help of the original US shop and people on this forum the mystery can be solved.
It is an early model box with the Transgo-3 stick shift with the Vacuum mod and check valve , all from Transgo.
It has Alto red and Kolene Steels
The hard parts are from CK Performance.
Billet input and output shafts
Billet rollerized clutch hub
Super Comp Direct Drum and Oversize 36 Sprag
Engine braking was enabled for all gears.
The Symptoms are as follows:
(1)
When the car is cold and for the first 5 minutes of driving, it shifts into 2nd good and holds the gear even under boost.
But after that period, it starts to play up and it seem to fall out of 2nd gear and release to neutral when the load gets close to about 10 on the vacuum side of the gauge.
When i back of, it pops back into gear.
At this stage engine braking has also disappeared.
If i disconnect the vacuum hose and give it full line pressure it makes it much worse.
Again 2nd works fine when cold but after a few minutes of driving, it starts to delay the 1st to 2nd shift by a few seconds and will only shift under 0% TPS.
Eventually it doesn't shift at all into 2nd and when i give it some gas, it free revs to about 3200 rpm , (ruffly the same rpm as the converter), and finds first gear, even tho the shifter is manually in 2nd.
It also has another problem that is there all the time.
(2)
When i engage 1st gear, it feels like it goes into reverse and it makes the car rock backwards for a split second before it goes into 1st and rocks forward into gear.
It makes the back wheels lock up every time even at super slow speeds.
On the hoist when i run through the gears from 4th down with 0% TPS the wheels spin free constant in all gears but when i engage 1st they come to a stop and then spin forward again.
The car rolls forward on its own in forward gears on the road.
1st gear feels too tight almost like a clutch gearbox and engine breaking is way too severe too use , It's like something is holding the car back and requers a bit more TPS then i would think.
I have not booted it with a WOT in any of the gears cause the box has only been driven around the block a few times.
I have put a pressure gauge on the box and it shows around 100 to 150+ psi with the vacuum hose connected and around 190 -210 psi with out the hose.
It shows around 300 psi in reverse without the hose connected.
To make things worse , the pump is a bit loud when cold but is still noticeable after the box heats up.
(3)
It also has GM straight cut gears supplied that are so super loud ,
1st gear sounds like going up the street in reverse.
I was told that i will not be able to hear first gear but it is so bad that i will not put them back in the box.
(4)
To top things off, the car has a massive vibration that gets worse with RPM.
It vibrates in park as well as when driving.
I have checked for a solid mount and all is fine ,
I disconnected the converter from the flex plate and pushed it back 4mm and the vibration went away.
So is this not a converter issue as well or could it be an input shaft issue?
The converter is a top dollar big HP with lock up from Midwest converters and the flex plate from Meziere.
I was not able to get the lock up working due to bad wire in the box that i found, once the pan was removed.
I would be so so great full if people had any experience with these symptoms and could give me any suggestions.
My local shop to start with, will trace back the Transgo steps and see if anything is unusual.
Sorry for the long post, but i have spent mega dollars on these parts and another 50% on top to get the stuff shipped to me, I can't believe this is happening.
Thanks for any help in advance.
Sorry for the super long post in advance , but i have a major problem on my hands
I have recently had a 4L80E built by a US shop (not a sponsor) but highly recommended by people on this forum , and shipped to me in Australia.
It was installed last week and to my horror shock the auto is playing up in more then one way and my original builder is baffled at the symptoms.
Due to large shipping cost to the US and back it is not an option to send it back.
The Auto was tested in a car before it was shipped and worked fine.
Drive around the block, I was told.
I was also told by the US shop that it has done a few 4L80E stick shifts before with no problems.
I have given the box to a local trany shop to rip apart and hopefully with the help of the original US shop and people on this forum the mystery can be solved.
It is an early model box with the Transgo-3 stick shift with the Vacuum mod and check valve , all from Transgo.
It has Alto red and Kolene Steels
The hard parts are from CK Performance.
Billet input and output shafts
Billet rollerized clutch hub
Super Comp Direct Drum and Oversize 36 Sprag
Engine braking was enabled for all gears.
The Symptoms are as follows:
(1)
When the car is cold and for the first 5 minutes of driving, it shifts into 2nd good and holds the gear even under boost.
But after that period, it starts to play up and it seem to fall out of 2nd gear and release to neutral when the load gets close to about 10 on the vacuum side of the gauge.
When i back of, it pops back into gear.
At this stage engine braking has also disappeared.
If i disconnect the vacuum hose and give it full line pressure it makes it much worse.
Again 2nd works fine when cold but after a few minutes of driving, it starts to delay the 1st to 2nd shift by a few seconds and will only shift under 0% TPS.
Eventually it doesn't shift at all into 2nd and when i give it some gas, it free revs to about 3200 rpm , (ruffly the same rpm as the converter), and finds first gear, even tho the shifter is manually in 2nd.
It also has another problem that is there all the time.
(2)
When i engage 1st gear, it feels like it goes into reverse and it makes the car rock backwards for a split second before it goes into 1st and rocks forward into gear.
It makes the back wheels lock up every time even at super slow speeds.
On the hoist when i run through the gears from 4th down with 0% TPS the wheels spin free constant in all gears but when i engage 1st they come to a stop and then spin forward again.
The car rolls forward on its own in forward gears on the road.
1st gear feels too tight almost like a clutch gearbox and engine breaking is way too severe too use , It's like something is holding the car back and requers a bit more TPS then i would think.
I have not booted it with a WOT in any of the gears cause the box has only been driven around the block a few times.
I have put a pressure gauge on the box and it shows around 100 to 150+ psi with the vacuum hose connected and around 190 -210 psi with out the hose.
It shows around 300 psi in reverse without the hose connected.
To make things worse , the pump is a bit loud when cold but is still noticeable after the box heats up.
(3)
It also has GM straight cut gears supplied that are so super loud ,
1st gear sounds like going up the street in reverse.
I was told that i will not be able to hear first gear but it is so bad that i will not put them back in the box.
(4)
To top things off, the car has a massive vibration that gets worse with RPM.
It vibrates in park as well as when driving.
I have checked for a solid mount and all is fine ,
I disconnected the converter from the flex plate and pushed it back 4mm and the vibration went away.
So is this not a converter issue as well or could it be an input shaft issue?
The converter is a top dollar big HP with lock up from Midwest converters and the flex plate from Meziere.
I was not able to get the lock up working due to bad wire in the box that i found, once the pan was removed.
I would be so so great full if people had any experience with these symptoms and could give me any suggestions.
My local shop to start with, will trace back the Transgo steps and see if anything is unusual.
Sorry for the long post, but i have spent mega dollars on these parts and another 50% on top to get the stuff shipped to me, I can't believe this is happening.
Thanks for any help in advance.
Last edited by Stelth; 04-04-2009 at 12:03 PM.
11-22-2008, 09:32 AM
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This is like the 3rd thread I have read with issues with the CK name being attached. Just a few questions here. What year is this 80? Did CK build this trans or did you just buy the parts from them? Sounds like they did. Just want to clarify this. Did you get any directions with this trans on how it should be driven? I ask this because with a manual VB transmission you should never be downshifting the unit/box into low gear while rolling or even 2nd for that matter. This could be why you see the tires stop when you go to low gear. Your line pressure seems a bit high at idle but depending on the vacuum reading with the modulator this could be why it is as high as it is. Large cam shafts will cause this. The straight cut gear set you have for the planets will be very loud and there is no way around that unless you change them to the regular cut gears. As far as the lockup not working you would think that it would have been tested in the builders test vehicle. Sounds like the testing of this trans was a joke before it was shipped to you. The pump noise and vibration you have is not a good sign. I would bet that either there is an issue with the converter or the pump. The flywheel you have is a very nice piece and have never heard of an issue with one. Did the converter bolt up to it without a problem? Were the bolt holes large enough to bolt the two pieces together? Did you modify it in any way? If all was good then the only other thing to look at is to make sure it spins true with very little run out. Use a lathe to do this. The issue with second gear sounds like an issue with the center support screw or a faulty intermediate sprag/drum. You should have had a pressure gauge on the vehicle when it does what it does. If pressure maintained then I would suspect that there is an issue with the intermediate sprag not holding or improperly installed. If the pressure falls off you have a leak in the system somewhere. Either in the valve body to case, valve body itself, or in the center support to case. Also make sure your shifter and the detents in the transmission line up very good. The issues you are having might be due to the manual valve being a little off caused by the shifter and the assembly. Good luck with this and I will check back to see what progress you have made. SD
11-22-2008, 10:15 AM
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Hi SD
thanks for your help !
The box was not built by CK.
I don't want to name the shop at this stage.
It is a 95-96 box the one with both trany lines up the front.
It was my suggestion to use the CK parts cause they sounded good on paper.
What other stuff have you heard?
Down shifting to second feels ok and not too ruff when it is working.
I was told that engine braking was ok for me to do.
I will see if engine braking can be eliminated for first gear.
Do you think that engine braking has something to do with the auto activating reverse when pulling first?
Engine is a stock LS1 with a Procharger.
The builder told me that he gave me the auto with shifts set on the hardest and i could tone it down if i wanted to by, shortening a rod.
I explained that it is a super quiet street car inside the cab except under WOT , and would not want straight cut gears if they where in any way noticeable.
First gear has to be about the loudest noise i have ever heard in a car at low rpm and ear piercing at high rpm , so it makes me think.
Definitely going to put standard gears in.
The pressure remained constant when 2nd gear played up so it does sound like it could be a drum type of issue.
But how could it be ok and hold power when cold and why would it be worse with more line pressure afterward?
The converter and flex plate bolted together perfect with 3 arp bolts.
I have spoken to the converter shop and they said that they balanced it perfect.
I will have to get it re checked, but if it balances ok could there be something internal like the lock up clutch causing the vibration?
Or could the pump be noisy and also causing the vibration even tho it is producing high pressure ?
Could the CK input shaft be out and causing a vibration even tho it does it in park as well ?
I don't know much about autos but learning quick at this stage, so i am just tossing ideas around.
The selector rod and shaft was checked several times and all was good.
It finds second great when cold.
1st to second shift when it works , shifts almost instant 2nd to 3rd feels like a slight delay but 3rd to 4th is as instant as an on/off switch.
I wish all my shifts could be like 3rd to 4th shif, as it feels super quick.
Thanks for your help SD !
thanks for your help !
The box was not built by CK.
I don't want to name the shop at this stage.
It is a 95-96 box the one with both trany lines up the front.
It was my suggestion to use the CK parts cause they sounded good on paper.
What other stuff have you heard?
Down shifting to second feels ok and not too ruff when it is working.
I was told that engine braking was ok for me to do.
I will see if engine braking can be eliminated for first gear.
Do you think that engine braking has something to do with the auto activating reverse when pulling first?
Engine is a stock LS1 with a Procharger.
The builder told me that he gave me the auto with shifts set on the hardest and i could tone it down if i wanted to by, shortening a rod.
I explained that it is a super quiet street car inside the cab except under WOT , and would not want straight cut gears if they where in any way noticeable.
First gear has to be about the loudest noise i have ever heard in a car at low rpm and ear piercing at high rpm , so it makes me think.
Definitely going to put standard gears in.
The pressure remained constant when 2nd gear played up so it does sound like it could be a drum type of issue.
But how could it be ok and hold power when cold and why would it be worse with more line pressure afterward?
The converter and flex plate bolted together perfect with 3 arp bolts.
I have spoken to the converter shop and they said that they balanced it perfect.
I will have to get it re checked, but if it balances ok could there be something internal like the lock up clutch causing the vibration?
Or could the pump be noisy and also causing the vibration even tho it is producing high pressure ?
Could the CK input shaft be out and causing a vibration even tho it does it in park as well ?
I don't know much about autos but learning quick at this stage, so i am just tossing ideas around.
The selector rod and shaft was checked several times and all was good.
It finds second great when cold.
1st to second shift when it works , shifts almost instant 2nd to 3rd feels like a slight delay but 3rd to 4th is as instant as an on/off switch.
I wish all my shifts could be like 3rd to 4th shif, as it feels super quick.
Thanks for your help SD !
Last edited by Stelth; 11-22-2008 at 12:47 PM.
11-22-2008, 10:18 AM
#4
From the sound of it CK did not build the trans. We use CK parts often and have never had any issues with any of them, All have been excellent pieces.
But it does sound like there are multiple internal issues and valve body issues as well.
I doubt the trans was driven or dynoed before shipment because this many issues should have shown up.
Sounds like you already have the "BOX" out and at the shop . I would just wait till they tear it down if you can get some pictures of anything damaged they may help.
As already mentioned the center support bolt would be a good possible candidate if they are over tightened they can snap off when the trans warms causing a whole host of cross leak issues . Same with the OD support screw..
I wish I could add more but really the best think at this point is to tear down and inspect which it appears what you are already doing.
Good luck and keep us posted with what you find inside.
But it does sound like there are multiple internal issues and valve body issues as well.
I doubt the trans was driven or dynoed before shipment because this many issues should have shown up.
Sounds like you already have the "BOX" out and at the shop . I would just wait till they tear it down if you can get some pictures of anything damaged they may help.
As already mentioned the center support bolt would be a good possible candidate if they are over tightened they can snap off when the trans warms causing a whole host of cross leak issues . Same with the OD support screw..
I wish I could add more but really the best think at this point is to tear down and inspect which it appears what you are already doing.
Good luck and keep us posted with what you find inside.
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11-22-2008, 10:33 AM
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From the sound of it CK did not build the trans.
But it does sound like there are multiple internal issues and valve body issues as well.
I doubt the trans was driven or dynoed before shipment because this many issues should have shown up.
Sounds like you already have the "BOX" out and at the shop . I would just wait till they tear it down if you can get some pictures of anything damaged they may help.
As already mentioned the center support bolt would be a good possible candidate if they are over tightened they can snap off when the trans warms causing a whole host of cross leak issues . Same with the OD support screw..
I wish I could add more but really the best think at this point is to tear down and inspect which it appears what you are already doing.
Good luck and keep us posted with what you find inside.
But it does sound like there are multiple internal issues and valve body issues as well.
I doubt the trans was driven or dynoed before shipment because this many issues should have shown up.
Sounds like you already have the "BOX" out and at the shop . I would just wait till they tear it down if you can get some pictures of anything damaged they may help.
As already mentioned the center support bolt would be a good possible candidate if they are over tightened they can snap off when the trans warms causing a whole host of cross leak issues . Same with the OD support screw..
I wish I could add more but really the best think at this point is to tear down and inspect which it appears what you are already doing.
Good luck and keep us posted with what you find inside.
Thanks for your help, i am confident with all the great minds on here the problems will be solved.
I do seem to have many problems here and not just one.
If i drive the box for the first 5 minutes it seem to shift and hold 2nd well even under 5 psi of boost, so if the trany shop did drive around the block , they would not of seen that problem in that short time.
Why such a small test drive? it doesn't make sense.
Also the fact that my converter was not used in the test and the vibration was not noticed , could the problem end up being the converter?
But still does not explain the straight cut gear noise not noticed , when i asked if it was loud on the test drive , and also does not explain the first gear binding not noticed either.
I have it back out and it will be teared down mid next week.
cheers
Last edited by Stelth; 04-04-2009 at 12:05 PM.
11-22-2008, 10:41 AM
#6
Pictures would be good and while anythings possible sounds like more than a converter issue though that may be there too.
But as mentioned the straight cut gears WILL BE NOISY its just there nature.
Not sure about the driving to me a dyno test or test drive should be at least 30 minutes. A drive like you mentioned would not even get it to operating temp and would tell nothing really.
I hate your having problems and once you get it apart post pics and I am sure myself and everyone here will do all they can to help you.
But as mentioned the straight cut gears WILL BE NOISY its just there nature.
Not sure about the driving to me a dyno test or test drive should be at least 30 minutes. A drive like you mentioned would not even get it to operating temp and would tell nothing really.
I hate your having problems and once you get it apart post pics and I am sure myself and everyone here will do all they can to help you.
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11-22-2008, 10:51 AM
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Pictures would be good and while anythings possible sounds like more than a converter issue though that may be there too.
But as mentioned the straight cut gears WILL BE NOISY its just there nature.
Not sure about the driving to me a dyno test or test drive should be at least 30 minutes. A drive like you mentioned would not even get it to operating temp and would tell nothing really.
I hate your having problems and once you get it apart post pics and I am sure myself and everyone here will do all they can to help you.
But as mentioned the straight cut gears WILL BE NOISY its just there nature.
Not sure about the driving to me a dyno test or test drive should be at least 30 minutes. A drive like you mentioned would not even get it to operating temp and would tell nothing really.
I hate your having problems and once you get it apart post pics and I am sure myself and everyone here will do all they can to help you.
It is like almost 4am Sunday and I have been on the net all night researching and looking for answers.
Do you use the CK parts i mentioned in your top box?
Have you used a 4L80E Transgo-3 kit with success ?
cheers
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11-22-2008, 10:56 AM
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11-22-2008, 01:14 PM
#10
did you get the ck valve that will release the vacume-the mod will always see the vacume on it if there is no place for it to be released-i think transgo has the one to release the vacume-i have a transgo MVB kit im getting ready to install in my 4l80e, never thought about the free wheeling thing, if its supposed to or not-i know from reading the insts. there is a lot that can go wrong if not done correct-there is pump mods to be done along with the other stuff, hopefully they were done
11-22-2008, 03:58 PM
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I refuse to get involved with this one as I didnt build the transmission.It is unfortunate you are having bad luck.We make a our own reverse pattern and forward pattern full manual valve bodies with transmission brakes and are not interested or familiar with studying transgos choice of oil circuits for their product.Shopdog,there are no posts here attached to me negative with 4l80e.We have 4 cnc machines and build the best internal components and valve bodies for the 4l80e bar none.Reads our 4l80e build sheet and get you facts straight before dragging me into someone elses misfortune.
Last edited by Ragtop 99; 12-27-2008 at 03:53 PM. Reason: non-sponsor contact information posting
11-22-2008, 06:51 PM
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Hi Chris
Could the direct drum have been installed wrong to cause some of the problems?
Or do you think it is all caused by the Transgo VB?
If I install your VB do you think it willl fix my problems?
Can you P.M me your prices for the FMV ?
The auto was built by a shop that has done a few quick high profile cars on this forum.
cheers
Could the direct drum have been installed wrong to cause some of the problems?
Or do you think it is all caused by the Transgo VB?
If I install your VB do you think it willl fix my problems?
Can you P.M me your prices for the FMV ?
The auto was built by a shop that has done a few quick high profile cars on this forum.
cheers
11-23-2008, 01:11 AM
#13
The 4L80E VB has a checkball in it to seperate the low/reverse circuits. Be sure the checkball is free.
2nd gear issue sounds more like a sealing ring issue to me, although you would usually see a pressure drop.
Before you disassemble it, put air pressure on the mainline port with the manual valve in the 2nd gear position and see where it's leaking.
The TransGo -3 valve body moves some circuits around to give the full manual feature, one circuit is a hole drilled from the low position of the manual valve that jumps outside the VB under their plate, back into the 1-2 shift valve cavity, to force the shift valve to the 1st gear position. Be sure those holes are properly drilled and check the manual valve placement before you diassemble it within the hole so you can see if it's bleeding off fluid there and letting the 1-2 shift valve move back to the 2nd position (default).
Check the low/reverse servo piston for cracks or a bad seal also.
CK makes the best parts out there.
2nd gear issue sounds more like a sealing ring issue to me, although you would usually see a pressure drop.
Before you disassemble it, put air pressure on the mainline port with the manual valve in the 2nd gear position and see where it's leaking.
The TransGo -3 valve body moves some circuits around to give the full manual feature, one circuit is a hole drilled from the low position of the manual valve that jumps outside the VB under their plate, back into the 1-2 shift valve cavity, to force the shift valve to the 1st gear position. Be sure those holes are properly drilled and check the manual valve placement before you diassemble it within the hole so you can see if it's bleeding off fluid there and letting the 1-2 shift valve move back to the 2nd position (default).
Check the low/reverse servo piston for cracks or a bad seal also.
CK makes the best parts out there.
11-23-2008, 03:53 AM
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The 4L80E VB has a checkball in it to seperate the low/reverse circuits. Be sure the checkball is free.
2nd gear issue sounds more like a sealing ring issue to me, although you would usually see a pressure drop.
Before you disassemble it, put air pressure on the mainline port with the manual valve in the 2nd gear position and see where it's leaking.
The TransGo -3 valve body moves some circuits around to give the full manual feature, one circuit is a hole drilled from the low position of the manual valve that jumps outside the VB under their plate, back into the 1-2 shift valve cavity, to force the shift valve to the 1st gear position. Be sure those holes are properly drilled and check the manual valve placement before you diassemble it within the hole so you can see if it's bleeding off fluid there and letting the 1-2 shift valve move back to the 2nd position (default).
Check the low/reverse servo piston for cracks or a bad seal also.
CK makes the best parts out there.
2nd gear issue sounds more like a sealing ring issue to me, although you would usually see a pressure drop.
Before you disassemble it, put air pressure on the mainline port with the manual valve in the 2nd gear position and see where it's leaking.
The TransGo -3 valve body moves some circuits around to give the full manual feature, one circuit is a hole drilled from the low position of the manual valve that jumps outside the VB under their plate, back into the 1-2 shift valve cavity, to force the shift valve to the 1st gear position. Be sure those holes are properly drilled and check the manual valve placement before you diassemble it within the hole so you can see if it's bleeding off fluid there and letting the 1-2 shift valve move back to the 2nd position (default).
Check the low/reverse servo piston for cracks or a bad seal also.
CK makes the best parts out there.
Don't you do a MVB ?
I would be interested if we can't get the Transgo working.
I will run checks and report back.
cheers
11-23-2008, 05:34 PM
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did you get the ck valve that will release the vacume-the mod will always see the vacume on it if there is no place for it to be released-i think transgo has the one to release the vacume-i have a transgo MVB kit im getting ready to install in my 4l80e, never thought about the free wheeling thing, if its supposed to or not-i know from reading the insts. there is a lot that can go wrong if not done correct-there is pump mods to be done along with the other stuff, hopefully they were done
The shop has several quick customer cars on here.
cheers
11-24-2008, 06:46 PM
#16
The mods done to the pump in the -3 kit...
Don't do them. Drilling the hole through the passage is the "full time lube" mod and the only time it should be done is in a heavy towing application, doesn't need to be done in a drag application or street application.
Don't do them. Drilling the hole through the passage is the "full time lube" mod and the only time it should be done is in a heavy towing application, doesn't need to be done in a drag application or street application.
11-24-2008, 07:03 PM
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Sorry i am a bit confused about the first part.
Are you saying not to do the mods on the pump as it says in the Transgo-3 instructions?
If they have been done , how would it be reversed?
Excuse my ignorance, i will pass all this information on to my local shop.
cheers
11-24-2008, 08:17 PM
#19
The only comment I can make is the downshift to 1st. If your moving at all, don't shift down to 1st. Its one harsh ****. I only shift into 1st at a complete stop. That problem seems normal. Sorry for your bad luck on the rest.
11-24-2008, 08:48 PM
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cheers