Locking converter at wot
03-26-2009, 11:30 AM
#21
Think about this.
A torque converter wet clutch can not perform the same task as a manual
Dry clutch though people are asking it to do so.
The torque holding load of the wet single or multi plate clutch can not match the dry clutch single or multi plate that are used behind the LS based engines.
They will hold for a short time but will fail as to the extreme heat that they must absorb under load at WOT lock up.
Multi plate designs have thin plates that will warp and cause surface hot spots with time, this warpage and spotting of the plates will cause clutch drag in the converter and lead to the demise of the unit (they hold fine after lock up as no heat is generated) but so will a single plate clutch at this point
A torque converter wet clutch can not perform the same task as a manual
Dry clutch though people are asking it to do so.
The torque holding load of the wet single or multi plate clutch can not match the dry clutch single or multi plate that are used behind the LS based engines.
They will hold for a short time but will fail as to the extreme heat that they must absorb under load at WOT lock up.
Multi plate designs have thin plates that will warp and cause surface hot spots with time, this warpage and spotting of the plates will cause clutch drag in the converter and lead to the demise of the unit (they hold fine after lock up as no heat is generated) but so will a single plate clutch at this point
03-26-2009, 03:06 PM
#22
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Think about this.
A torque converter wet clutch can not perform the same task as a manual
Dry clutch though people are asking it to do so.
The torque holding load of the wet single or multi plate clutch can not match the dry clutch single or multi plate that are used behind the LS based engines.
They will hold for a short time but will fail as to the extreme heat that they must absorb under load at WOT lock up.
Multi plate designs have thin plates that will warp and cause surface hot spots with time, this warpage and spotting of the plates will cause clutch drag in the converter and lead to the demise of the unit (they hold fine after lock up as no heat is generated) but so will a single plate clutch at this point
A torque converter wet clutch can not perform the same task as a manual
Dry clutch though people are asking it to do so.
The torque holding load of the wet single or multi plate clutch can not match the dry clutch single or multi plate that are used behind the LS based engines.
They will hold for a short time but will fail as to the extreme heat that they must absorb under load at WOT lock up.
Multi plate designs have thin plates that will warp and cause surface hot spots with time, this warpage and spotting of the plates will cause clutch drag in the converter and lead to the demise of the unit (they hold fine after lock up as no heat is generated) but so will a single plate clutch at this point
I know whoever I spoke to on the phone at Yank told me their converter only has about a 5% loss compared to about 15-20% with others like TCI. I am not sure what the Circle d is as far as efficiency is concerned though.
Last edited by Stephen Griner; 03-26-2009 at 03:39 PM.
03-26-2009, 03:46 PM
#23
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Like Circle D stated you can lock up a multi disc. i have percision that has been rebuilt by Circle D and it works fine. I use a window switch that locks and un locks the converter in 3rd and 4th. I see a 1-2 mile an hour gain but not hardly any gain in ET. It extends the power band about 500rpm in each gear. You better have a built tranny to handle it.
03-26-2009, 05:02 PM
#24
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I'm glad I bought my yank. I would rather have a company tell me the truth and not have me mess the stall or even the tranny up so I have to spend more money on fixing the converter or trans. Thanks Yank. You've got my business for life.
03-27-2009, 04:59 PM
#25
It is not a really a matter of truth vs lies, it is a difference of opinion. I did not give up on the idea of WOT lock up. I decided I was going to make a clutch pack strong enough to hold. I definitely had some trial and error, learned a lot along the way. But in the end I feel very confident when I say " We dare you to break it!"
Single disk converter have there place, but so do Multi disk.
Chris
Single disk converter have there place, but so do Multi disk.
Chris
03-27-2009, 05:04 PM
#26
So locking up the clutch on a single disc is just as bad as on a multi disc under WOT? I intend on buying a yank or circle d converter when I get the cash(leaning real hard towards the yank SS4000), however in the mean time I was thinking of locking this one I have at WOT in third gear to see if that makes any difference at the track, like one or two passes. ??? I would like to see IF I can get my 5/6 mph back that I lost.
I know whoever I spoke to on the phone at Yank told me their converter only has about a 5% loss compared to about 15-20% with others like TCI. I am not sure what the Circle d is as far as efficiency is concerned though.
I know whoever I spoke to on the phone at Yank told me their converter only has about a 5% loss compared to about 15-20% with others like TCI. I am not sure what the Circle d is as far as efficiency is concerned though.
Chris
03-27-2009, 09:11 PM
#27
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Ok, I am slow so if anyone can help me out with some of this I would appreciate it.
I just got a 700r4 from a friend who had a Monster Stage 2 700r4 to put in my 73 Camaro behind my 383.
I am very new to overdrive autos so I don't know a damn thing about them.
When would locking the converter be useful? When or when not to do so.
The car will be at the drag strip about 50% of its life wo I want good performance but I don't want to wreck the tranny either.
So if anyone could school me on these things I would really appreciate it.
I just got a 700r4 from a friend who had a Monster Stage 2 700r4 to put in my 73 Camaro behind my 383.
I am very new to overdrive autos so I don't know a damn thing about them.
When would locking the converter be useful? When or when not to do so.
The car will be at the drag strip about 50% of its life wo I want good performance but I don't want to wreck the tranny either.
So if anyone could school me on these things I would really appreciate it.
03-28-2009, 09:54 AM
#28
So locking up the clutch on a single disc is just as bad as on a multi disc under WOT? I intend on buying a yank or circle d converter when I get the cash(leaning real hard towards the yank SS4000), however in the mean time I was thinking of locking this one I have at WOT in third gear to see if that makes any difference at the track, like one or two passes. ??? I would like to see IF I can get my 5/6 mph back that I lost.
I know whoever I spoke to on the phone at Yank told me their converter only has about a 5% loss compared to about 15-20% with others like TCI. I am not sure what the Circle d is as far as efficiency is concerned though.
I know whoever I spoke to on the phone at Yank told me their converter only has about a 5% loss compared to about 15-20% with others like TCI. I am not sure what the Circle d is as far as efficiency is concerned though.
If the correct converter is installed for the setup there is no need to lock it.
Look at the top drag cars running converters and they are not of lock up design NHRA stockers are a good example of this.
If you are lossing 5-6 MPH you have the incorrect converter!
I have drag raced around 40 years and started testing lock ups in the mid 80's and to this day have not found any correctly set up N/A cars that have lowered ET by lock up.
The small MPH if any is not worth the effort and possible failures.
03-28-2009, 12:16 PM
#30
Think about this.
A torque converter wet clutch can not perform the same task as a manual
Dry clutch though people are asking it to do so.
The torque holding load of the wet single or multi plate clutch can not match the dry clutch single or multi plate that are used behind the LS based engines.
They will hold for a short time but will fail as to the extreme heat that they must absorb under load at WOT lock up.
Multi plate designs have thin plates that will warp and cause surface hot spots with time, this warpage and spotting of the plates will cause clutch drag in the converter and lead to the demise of the unit (they hold fine after lock up as no heat is generated) but so will a single plate clutch at this point
A torque converter wet clutch can not perform the same task as a manual
Dry clutch though people are asking it to do so.
The torque holding load of the wet single or multi plate clutch can not match the dry clutch single or multi plate that are used behind the LS based engines.
They will hold for a short time but will fail as to the extreme heat that they must absorb under load at WOT lock up.
Multi plate designs have thin plates that will warp and cause surface hot spots with time, this warpage and spotting of the plates will cause clutch drag in the converter and lead to the demise of the unit (they hold fine after lock up as no heat is generated) but so will a single plate clutch at this point
You guys must not be in the cummins specific diesel market.....
converter locked through WOT shifts, holding 1000++ ft lbs
I'd put the To. holding capacity of my Goerend 3disk up against about any dry clutch
Hyd.>>> spring pressure
I have no doubt a well built CircleD or any well designed multi plate converter would hold whatever you wanted locked behind a LS based engine...... as long tranny has a good lockup circuit
03-28-2009, 01:06 PM
#31
If the correct converter is installed for the setup there is no need to lock it.
Look at the top drag cars running converters and they are not of lock up design NHRA stockers are a good example of this.
If you are lossing 5-6 MPH you have the incorrect converter!
I have drag raced around 40 years and started testing lock ups in the mid 80's and to this day have not found any correctly set up N/A cars that have lowered ET by lock up.
The small MPH if any is not worth the effort and possible failures.
Look at the top drag cars running converters and they are not of lock up design NHRA stockers are a good example of this.
If you are lossing 5-6 MPH you have the incorrect converter!
I have drag raced around 40 years and started testing lock ups in the mid 80's and to this day have not found any correctly set up N/A cars that have lowered ET by lock up.
The small MPH if any is not worth the effort and possible failures.
Chris
03-28-2009, 01:10 PM
#32
You guys must not be in the cummins specific diesel market.....
converter locked through WOT shifts, holding 1000++ ft lbs
I'd put the To. holding capacity of my Goerend 3disk up against about any dry clutch
Hyd.>>> spring pressure
I have no doubt a well built CircleD or any well designed multi plate converter would hold whatever you wanted locked behind a LS based engine...... as long tranny has a good lockup circuit
converter locked through WOT shifts, holding 1000++ ft lbs
I'd put the To. holding capacity of my Goerend 3disk up against about any dry clutch
Hyd.>>> spring pressure
I have no doubt a well built CircleD or any well designed multi plate converter would hold whatever you wanted locked behind a LS based engine...... as long tranny has a good lockup circuit
Chris
03-28-2009, 01:20 PM
#33
I have always been against locking the converter in a n/a car, tried it a couple times and it was not worth it for me and went back to running it unlocked through the traps...
circle d, are there advantages in et to be had by locking the converter in a big nitrous set up? or are you against that?
circle d, are there advantages in et to be had by locking the converter in a big nitrous set up? or are you against that?
03-28-2009, 05:15 PM
#34
Yank built its first Multi plate Billet Diesel converter 1990 so your not telling us anything new here as to converter design and fuction.
We just like non Diesel race and street cars better so we took that direction for the company.
03-28-2009, 05:43 PM
#35
While I can see a whole host of reasons not to lock during a shift I dont see any reason why a multi disc would not hold. Looking at the clutch area of even the billet single disc and then adding a few of them would far exceed most any clutch set in the transmission in friction area, Certainly the 3-4 set but even the forward set would be left looking small in comparison. And they hold the full force of the car every day.
I dont see any reason why a multi disc would not hold. Looking at the clutch area of even the billet single disc and then adding a few of them would far exceed most any clutch set in the transmission in friction area, Certainly the 3-4 set but even the forward set would be left looking small in comparison. And they hold the full force of the car every day.
__________________
03-28-2009, 06:58 PM
#36
You are not even talking about the same thing here a diesel converter is much larger dia. and the clutch plates are large and thick, they have a low stall speed and extension point with not much RPM to absorb a lock up only a few hundred RPM.
Yank built its first Multi plate Billet Diesel converter 1990 so your not telling us anything new here as to converter design and fuction.
We just like non Diesel race and street cars better so we took that direction for the company.
Yank built its first Multi plate Billet Diesel converter 1990 so your not telling us anything new here as to converter design and fuction.
We just like non Diesel race and street cars better so we took that direction for the company.
I am not saying you guys don't know what you are talking about..... I know you build one of the top converters out there, as I have one
And the converter for a 47rh/re is hardly huge.... no bigger than a 4l80 converter
Anyway, All i am trying to say is that if a larger multi disk converter can handle WOT lockup on a much larger vehicle with a ton more TO........ then a smaller multidisk converter (of equal quality) should have no issues with a much lighter vehicle and less TO
Just giving my 2 cents
03-28-2009, 07:13 PM
#37
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Forget locking a converter in an N/A setup it's a waste. As stated above if you have the correct converter in an N/A setup there is no need to lock it. To date I have yet to lock any converter except on the dyno pulls (probably about 20 times over it's life) and the lockup clutch was pretty burnt up from it.
03-28-2009, 07:14 PM
#38
Why would you want WOT lockup with an NA car anyway? You should be hunting ET's, not trap speeds.
Many times NA cars ET better with a big sloppy unlocked stall then a lockup, even if they do lose a mph or two up top.
If you are losing 6mph then you have the wrong stall for your combo, the tranny is going, the stall is slipping, or a mix of all three.
Save the trap speed racing for crotch rockets and turbo'd manuals.
Many times NA cars ET better with a big sloppy unlocked stall then a lockup, even if they do lose a mph or two up top.
If you are losing 6mph then you have the wrong stall for your combo, the tranny is going, the stall is slipping, or a mix of all three.
Save the trap speed racing for crotch rockets and turbo'd manuals.
