OldBBody

You guys are right. Its still a tough call for me though... because the only reason I've even contemplated the 60e is because the larger size of the 80e. Some guys have said it will fit in the B-Body... others say the firewall and tunnel will need some work. If the tunnel needs to be mod'd for it to fit.. that is more money that I could spend on something else and I really don't want to go to that extent.

SO... I found this article about how to upgrade the 60e to a 65e. It has a 5 pinion rear planetary, a hardened input shaft and sun shell that increased its durability for a Impala SS with just under 500hp.

There is also a front planetary upgrade mentioned as well.

Do you guys think these 65e upgrades would still make the 60e strong enough???

Honestly... even though a stock 80e would be cheaper overall.... I might be better off if I pick up a 65e out of the salvage yard... at least I wouldn't have to worry about the possible firewall/tunnel work.

http://www.carcraft.com/techarticles...#ixzz1l4GQAqpo


Thanks,

JB

mrvedit

I have a 2010 4L65E with Transgo HD-2 shift kit behind my 500HP LS2. It has survived 1 year, 4000 street miles and 50-60 track runs so far. I still plan to upgrade it with a high rev oil pump spring, the HD-2 kit's high rev springs for the 3/4 spring cage, the latest Rayspestos 3/4 clutch frictions and a few minor Sonnax parts. I talked to several trans builders and those were the only things they could suggest for a 4L65E. Some think the new heat treated GM sun shell is just fine; while others still suggest The Beast. I need to check if the Sonnax Smart Shell fits a 4L65E as I cannot find a definite Yes/No on that.

I am also building/upgrading a 2001 4L60E right now. I found like-new GM/ACDelco 5-gear planetaries for around $150 each. (You need a different reaction gear in the rear too for that.) When done, I will test that in my car while I upgrade the 4L65E.

You won't find many 4L65E in the junk yards. And many of those will be for 4WD which will require at least a different rear housing. I don't know if they also require a different output shaft and therefore a partial rebuild.

With the right parts and some luck a 4L60E/4L65E should work just fine for you. Unfortunately it seems to require some luck. A 4L80E is a surer bet.

OldBBody

Those are all good points. I appreciate the good input.

I PROBABLY won't see 500hp with what I am looking for. I spent a great deal of time really thinking about all the possible outcomes.

Seems the best budget solution would be to lower my expectations a bit and just be happy with whatever power I can pull out of a 5.3 and a beefed up 4L60/65/70e trans.

I did find quite a few 06 Poncho GTO 4L65e trans. with 40-60K miles on them from Car-Part.com for around 900 bucks that were close enough.

If I go to a 6.0.. and I get a 4L80e.. that means A lot of other things will need to be looked at when that monster 6.0 power comes into play... if the trans, tunnel and the trans mount might need modification.. then that could very well mean the drive shaft and rear end will also need attention as well. This is all extra money I'm not interested in spending.

As much as I would like to go all out on this car... I need to keep things into perspective and dial back my overall goals. What I need is a car that runs and drives right. I need to just settle with what I can get out of a mostly stock 5.3 right now.. and this might very well mean that I'll need to use my 1993 4L60 (non-e) temporarily as well.

mrvedit

Another, IMHO, important detail is the year the 4L60E was built as GM upgraded them constantly. When the LS2 engines started coming out in 2002, the 4L65E was created and even the 4L60E was upgraded with a stronger (now heat treated) Sun Shell and other parts.
IMHO, the "all 4L60 are crap" posts are largely due to people trying to use older units in their 400+ HP cars. Also, as I posted on another thread yesterday, I am reading and hearing from good trans builders that the valve body needs repairs after 100K miles, particularly the AFL valve which moves with every load change. Otherwise the line pressure will be low and the clutches will fail. I suspect the valve bodies are not always repaired on older units which again leads to the "all 4L60 are crap" opinions. I'm now comfortable believing that a well build unit can handle 500HP both on the drag strip and on the street. However, as I want to get back into track racing, I'm not sure how well they can handle constant WOT shifting between 3rd and 4th gear. Time will tell.

OldBBody

Man! Scroll down and look at this picture! Whoa momma!

https://ls1tech.com/forums/automatic...027-4l70e.html

OldBBody

Again... all completely valid points. Unfortunately it comes back down to luck though.. I read quite a few articles that flat out say the early 4L60e's were known for failure.

I also read yesterday that the early 4L60e's from the 90's was never built to withstand any more HP then a 4.3 6cyl. or a 305 engine could offer. It seems to make sense... because my 93 Caprice with the TBI350 only had 180hp stock... nowadays 4cyl. engines have 180hp! Its also worth mentioning that my 4L60 went out around 160K. Then I had it rebuilt.. it now only has about 30K on it. So.. the rebuild is pretty fresh on it still...

But again.. the power levels of a 5.3 at (lets just say) around 400 fwhp SHOULDN'T be too much for a later style updated 4L60/65/70 trans. The one that Car Craft magazine built for an Imp SS had just under 500hp. Although I would love to get a bigger badder trans. there are other financial factors to take into consideration.. when upgrading to more power and a bigger trans.. other tings will also need to be brought in to the picture.

I am just going to have to settle with installing a mostly stock 5.3 and the 4L60 (non-e) trans I already have now at first. Then in the future I can make a few slight changes (intake, cam, heads, headers...etc...) to it and hope to get around 350-375hp and 400-425ft-lbs of TQ at the wheels some day. Then maybe at that point I can afford to decide what trans I should build up for the increased power.

bigmac108

If your looking for durablity and abuse the 80 all the way. It takes quite a bit more power to run though! So if your looking to take the car to the track then a built 60 is it for you! Typically the ppl that tear up the 60's are the guys who smack it to the floor going 50, the 60's dont handle hard downshifts or hard engagements. As long as the 60 has a high perform 3-4 pack, shift kit, and hardend sunshell your good. Ive built several 60's for race applications. The only scare with a 60 is if you are running nitrous or turbos. This is becuase they cause a sudden torque that 60's typically cant handle. So it really depends on your application, If your wanting to abuse it go with an 80

Jake's Performance

iTrader: (2)

How so?

Please expain in detail why you THINK a 4L80E takes more power to run.

OldBBody

The 80e is 100lbs more more heavier then the 60/65/70e right? Adding a another 100 lbs to the car is going to make it a bit heavier for the engine to push around right?

Jake's Performance

iTrader: (2)

No it is NOT 100 lbs heavier, nor is it that much larger than a 60e.

It is about 35 lbs heavier than a 60E.

We've seen cars go faster with an 80 swap over the 60, so I want to know where the 4l80E is magically consuming all this HP yet goes faster....

OldBBody

This thread:

https://ls1tech.com/forums/conversio...l80e-size.html

... points to this link:

http://www.gminsidenews.com/index.php?page=trans_guide

...which says:

4L60e/4L65e: 163 lbs.
4L80e/4L85e: 295 lbs.

This makes the 4L80e 132lbs. heavier.

This Hot Rod article:

http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/d.../photo_01.html

...states:

"...the 4L80E is roughly 100 pounds heavier than the TH400, so it’s no lightweight."

jgarza54

iTrader: (4)

I would say, 80 and be done with it. The first time your 60 breaks and have to replace it, you would have spent more on your 60 than you would have on an 80 with modifications.

OldBBody

That is true... but with the 80... I may have to spend more on getting it fit right.. and its heavier so then I am adding more weight to an already heavy car. Plus.. the cost of getting the trans is also higher...

slow67

iTrader: (2)

Do you believe everything Hot Rod spews out?

They HAD to have weighed the 80E with the stock converter, which is WAY heavier than a stock 60E converter, or an aftermarket converter, which most people run.

Jake's Performance

iTrader: (2)

Did you notice in the link you posted that the poster said the 80 fit in the tunnel BETTER than the 4L60E on the C2 vette?

I ship 4L80E's almost every business day of the week, we already shipped two this morning and two more going out on another shipper this afternoon.
I have to give a skid weight for my shipments, and it gets checked.

I'll try to post a pic of an 80E on a scale and 4L60E on a scale. I can tell you the 4L80E in short tail semi-wet (used core) weighs 178 lbs. I've weighed them more than once. You can get weights from anywhere on the internet you want, they are all wrong or not stating what is actually being weighed. I have actually scaled the units AND their internal parts. It seems I am the only one capable of actually using a ******* scale and not quoting BS.
A 4L60E varies slightly but a 3 piece case (LS style) will come in right around 135-140 lbs.
Both without a converter.
You are NOT going to use the stock 14" 70+ lb 80E converter in a performance application. Nor are you going to use the stock 12" 40 lb 4L60E converter.
You are much more likely to use a 32 lb 245mm converter in BOTH units, so the converter weight will be within a pound of the same.

If you are stuck on the 4L60E, you better pick a GOOD builder otherwise you'll be wishing you had gone with a 4L80, and even then you may stil wish you had...
And when it comes time to buy a 4L80E, there is no discount, core value, or sympathy in your failed 4L60E.

OldBBody

So the converter is what causes it to weigh so much?

And I have read all over that regardless of model GM car... they always seem to need to do pound out the tunnel to get it to fit right...

And BTW Jake and Slow67.. I am only showing you what I have found.. no real reason to display such an attitude... you obviously know more then I... so... congrats.

I am here to gain knowledge and an increased level of understanding... if your here to just talk down to me... then please don't bother replying to my thread any further.

Jake's Performance

iTrader: (2)

I'm not talking down to you,
it just seems that the internet lore about what a particular transmission (especially a 4L80E) and how much power is consumed is blindly believed and nobody is willing to actually weigh the **** themselves or even think to do their own footwork and research OR listen to someone who DOES actually know and not just spouting off BS they read on the internet.
The GM weights gets credibility because they are GM weights but nobody seems to understand that is the "module" weight. That's trans, converter, fluid, probably yoke, dipstick, converter cover, exhaust shield, etc.

c0ncEpT

iTrader: (4)

The 60E can be built to take the power for sure. They don't seem to fair as well in heavier vehicles tho.

Lots of very quick vettes at 3200lbs with 60E's.

I would be leaning towards an 80E for your application.

OldBBody

Your right.. I just read that advice that someone had given to someone else here in LS1 tech.. and that is a really really good point...

OldBBody

You know what... did some more reading last night.. and I found a few posts that showed me that this is a hot button issue and now I understand where your coming from. I unknowingly crossed a certain line with you and I apologize. You do know more then me and have had a lot more experience with this very subject... I need to take that seriously. Thanks for the input.