evilz99

iTrader: (74)

Crappy crap addage...

PBA

From a machinists and a designers standpoint, the Beast is not an impressive piece. It was an easy way to solve a problem, but not the best way. I have heard of complaints (but not common though) with a 3rd gear vibration when the Beast was installed, due to its not being balanced. They could have at least balanced the shell. The right approach would have been to make the area on the sunshell where the sun gear attaches itself, a little thicker, and "heat treat that area" for longevity. The rest of the shell did not have to be made thicker and heavier, as there was nothing to be gained here by doing this. The Sonnax shell appears to be a nice piece, expensive though, and to have solved the above problems, including where the sunshell contacts the reverse/input drum has been heat treated, as done in the late 2004R shell. The problem of the bearing in the planetary going away is rare from what I have seen, but at least it is addressed here. Since this part is relatively new, we will see how it works out, but it does look promising.

WS.SIX

iTrader: (3)

Eye-opening thread. Thanks.

Leeroyws6

iTrader: (4)

i think people just like the name"beast" because it sounds tough and agressive vs "sonnax" maybe sonnax should have given their superior shell an aggressive name like "sonnax slayer shell" or "sonnax supershell" or the "sonnax dragon" or something. i bet you $100 it would sell more units.

mrvedit

Since the Sonnax Smart Shell kit (with bearing!) is $76 and The Beast (without bearing) is $50, IMHO people should pick what they thinks will work better without regard to the small price difference. I see new-style OEM sun shells (for 2003 and later) for use with bearings selling for just $22, but those are probably not GM units. I think the GM units sell for about $45. This is a critical part; don't cheap out on it.

jrpimp00

iTrader: (17)

I have a vibration in 3rd and have checked/changed almost everything connected to the trans and been through my rear end. Someone else mentioned that it could be the beast sunshell. My trans is 2.5 years old and was built by a sponser on here. It has vibrated since day one and has gotten worse since.

My question for you guys is what else would need to be changed to run the GM sunshell , or is it a straight swap?

mrvedit

The ATSG Update manual says that the new GM sunshell cannot be used by itself, but will retro-fit to any previous 4L60E "when used as a service package". I think you have to change the reaction carrier shaft, and add the thrust bearing. IMHO, I would switch to the Sonnax Smart Shell which will retro fit to any previous 4L60E and supposedly also reduce the strain on the rear planetary's inner bearing. Still, changing to the newer reaction carrier shaft with the torrington style thrust bearing is also a good idea. I think that can be combined with the Sonnax Smart shell. I'm working on a detailed post now with all these options and many measurements; hopefully it will be up tomorrow. Again, I'm no trans expert and my info should be confirmed.

PBA

The two oem GM sunshells are indentical in dimensions. One uses the thrust bearing and the other uses the thrust washer. The thrust bearing can be used in any shell. The thrust washer must use a shell that has the four alignment tab holes in it to hold the thrust washer in place. The output hub must be the right one to match the thrust washer or bearing shell to be used. You can machine the output hub to except the bearing if desired.

mrvedit

To expand on that a bit, the newer 2003+ heat treated GM sun shell does not have the four tab holes and only works with the thrust bearing. Technically the "output hub" is called the Reaction Carrier Shaft which is underneath the front planetary set and above the sun shell.



This is a picture of the new Reaction Carrier Shaft (on left with torrington bearing) and the older one which uses the four-tab thrust washer. (Note this is upside down from how they are installed when building the trans.)

It appears that the older one could be machined, but the new one is available on ebay and probably directly from the dealer. The same Internal Ring Gear is used with both and easily swapped.

keith20mm

When using The Beast in 4l60E, since the steel is thicker, how would I go about getting back some input shaft end play, once the input and pump are assembled?

I find there is zero input shaft free play when using the Beast, and this is the reaction carrier shaft with the Torrington bearing.

I tried to use the thinnest production selectable washer behind the front Torrington (that the stator rests upon), and still there is no input shaft end play.

I reverted to the production GM sun shell, put it all back together with the original #69 selectable washer, and, Voila, correct input shaft end play.

So the difference is definitely the Beast sun shell thickness, which is moving the entire input section forward so much that there is no longer any input shaft play.

What to do????

vorteciroc

It is uncommon to have low or no front section end-play in this unit.
These units stock almost always have excessive end-play.

The most common cause of low end-play is due to a mis-build or after-market parts not taken into account.
The reaction sun-shell is part of the rear section. The rear section can and will effect the front end-play.

Re-check both the rear section stack outside the case and the rear and front sections combined.
You will most likely find a mis-build. You may even find that not all the 3-4 clutches or reverse input clutches are engaged.

Update us with the rear section end-play and the front after rebuild, ETC...

keith20mm

Regarding the no input shaft clearance...

I removed the entire input section, ring/planet, and snap ring, removed production shell, and removed OE plastic washer on the roller clutch inner race.

I applied TransGel to rear of The Beast and stuck the provided plastic washer onto rear face of The Beast, and installed The Beast, and the snap ring.

Reinstalled the ring and planet.

I removed the input drum, Torrington, and the selectable washer, installed just the Torrington, put drum back onto input housing, reinstalled the input section, put the gasket back on, and the pump, and installed 2 pump screws, verifying plenty of end play when finger tightened... no band.

I then installed remaining bolts, and torqued them to spec.

Next, I measured the total end play, with no selectable washer installed.

I took that distance, less 0.020" (0.016" minimum + 0.004"), and surface ground my #67 production washer to that thickness, holding the washer on magnetic chuck, spraying coolant while taking the washer down by a couple of thousandths per face pass side to side.

Then I cleaned the washer, removed the input section, lifted off the drum, put the washer under the Torrington, realigned the drum, and re-seated the input section into the body, verified that the drum was about 1/16" below the pump mound face, and seated the pump, checked clearance, and put in 2 bolts as before, fingered them down, and still nice clearance, so installed the other screws.

End play is now fine.

Now, I have one sniggling questionl... That plastic washer supplied with The Beast, it is pegged into the rear face of The Beast, and facing onto the roller clutch inner race. This means the inner face face is now the running face against the washer, whereas, with the OE washer tabbed into the roller clutch inner race, the running face is the rear face of The Beast against the OE plastic washer forward face.

Considering the finish difference between The Beast (or any shell, for that matter), is much finer than the face of the roller clutch’s inner race.

Is the plastic washer likely to be worn away running against the roller clutch inner race?

Thanks for your commentary above, vorteciroc, the clutch plates were all splined properly, and the lack of end play was definitely due to the selectable washer and added thickness of THe Beast.

vorteciroc

You are most welcome.
Congrats on completion and for taking the time to sort this out properly.

I believe you stated that, a few thousandths (0.002" - 0.003") were removed from both sides of the selective washer.
I can honestly say, that I have found the need to do something like this incredibly rare (especially with a #67 selective).
I nearly always end up tightening end-play throughout the entire transmission with selective shims from Sonnax.

I stopped building these transmissions with "The Beast" shell about 8 years ago, and switched to the Sonnax part.
I have heard "The Beast" shell has suffered even worse in quality since then... however I believe the thrust washer to be the same.
The plastic thrust washer included with "The Beast" reaction sun-shell tends to hold up fine.
That particular thrust location usually does not see major stress relative to other thrust surfaces within the transmission.
Sonnax adding a torrington thrust bearing in that location is nice, but completely unnecessary.
The THM350 transmission, that all of this is based on actually would see relatively more stress in that location and would benefit from the torrington bearing.

bbond105

If I am understanding you correctly, you are saying that you have a thrust washer on the low roller clutch inter race facing out/up and a thrust washer on the back side of the sun shell facing in/down toward the low roller clutch inter race and are using the two thrust washer together. I have never used a Beast Sun Shell but I don’t think you should be using the thrust washer on the back side of the sun shell. That washer if not using a bearing should go on the inside of the sun shell facing out/up.