Help, 4L60E input shaft end play question
05-13-2012, 01:04 AM
#1
Help, 4L60E input shaft end play question I purchased my trans from a forum sponsor. Due to an oversight on their part, it was shipped with an LT1 front pump, not the LS style which locates the bolt-on bell housing.
They sent me a new pump which I installed. It is quite easy.
Instructions stated that I should be able to turn the input shaft by hand after the pump is bolted down. Well, I can, but barely. Unfortunately, I didn't check this before I did the replacement.
So put the old pump back into check. Same story.
Get them on the phone, he says I should have a bit of in and out (end) play in the shaft. I don't. Then he says that is ok, as long as it turns.
So I check the trans I just removed. Yes it's hard, but I can turn it by hand. It has some end play. I'd guess about .010"
So looking at the manual, I see there is a selectable thrust washer under a torrington bearing down in the trans. The end of the pump mates with it. I can see it with the pump out.
The thrust washer behind the pump isn't the issue, removing it makes no difference.
So my question is, am I ok with no end play and a difficult to turn input shaft? My gut feel says no.
Car is a C5 Corvette, and trust me, R and R of the trans is a big job on the garage floor.
Need some help here from you builders.
For what it's worth, the input shaft has 1/8" of end play with the pump out.
I have rebuilt TH400's before with great success, but never been in the 4L60.
Help!
Ron
They sent me a new pump which I installed. It is quite easy.
Instructions stated that I should be able to turn the input shaft by hand after the pump is bolted down. Well, I can, but barely. Unfortunately, I didn't check this before I did the replacement.
So put the old pump back into check. Same story.
Get them on the phone, he says I should have a bit of in and out (end) play in the shaft. I don't. Then he says that is ok, as long as it turns.
So I check the trans I just removed. Yes it's hard, but I can turn it by hand. It has some end play. I'd guess about .010"
So looking at the manual, I see there is a selectable thrust washer under a torrington bearing down in the trans. The end of the pump mates with it. I can see it with the pump out.
The thrust washer behind the pump isn't the issue, removing it makes no difference.
So my question is, am I ok with no end play and a difficult to turn input shaft? My gut feel says no.
Car is a C5 Corvette, and trust me, R and R of the trans is a big job on the garage floor.
Need some help here from you builders.
For what it's worth, the input shaft has 1/8" of end play with the pump out.
I have rebuilt TH400's before with great success, but never been in the 4L60.
Help!
Ron
Last edited by RonSSNova; 05-13-2012 at 02:20 AM.
05-13-2012, 04:17 PM
#4
Moderator
Have your tried turning the input shaft with the pump out.?
Snug, but I can certainly turn it by hand without tools. Putting the pump back should not make it any tighter. If the input shaft is still super tight with the pump out, then you have other problems.
With the pump removed, your input shaft has infinite end play.
What is holding it in is the band. With the servo removed, the band might be loose enough to pull out the entire input drum with the reverse drum on top.
(Careful: This might be MUCH more than you want to do as re-assembly can be tricky.)
The reverse drum easily lifts off giving you access to the torrington bearing with the selective washer underneath it.
Putting it all back can be a bitch because you have to simultaneously engage the 3/4 clutch plates, the input sun gear into the planetary and the reverse drum into the sun shell. Having the band in will make this more difficult yet.
Therefore, to set the selective washer, I first remove the 3/4 clutch, assemble everything to check end play and then open up again to install my final selective washer.
You might not want to do all this.
Therefore, here is a crazy idea - instead of changing the selective washer, perhaps you could just install two or even three gaskets between the pump and the case. I would wait for an expert to tell you whether that is a reasonable idea.
Snug, but I can certainly turn it by hand without tools. Putting the pump back should not make it any tighter. If the input shaft is still super tight with the pump out, then you have other problems.
With the pump removed, your input shaft has infinite end play.
What is holding it in is the band. With the servo removed, the band might be loose enough to pull out the entire input drum with the reverse drum on top.
(Careful: This might be MUCH more than you want to do as re-assembly can be tricky.)
The reverse drum easily lifts off giving you access to the torrington bearing with the selective washer underneath it.
Putting it all back can be a bitch because you have to simultaneously engage the 3/4 clutch plates, the input sun gear into the planetary and the reverse drum into the sun shell. Having the band in will make this more difficult yet.
Therefore, to set the selective washer, I first remove the 3/4 clutch, assemble everything to check end play and then open up again to install my final selective washer.
You might not want to do all this.
Therefore, here is a crazy idea - instead of changing the selective washer, perhaps you could just install two or even three gaskets between the pump and the case. I would wait for an expert to tell you whether that is a reasonable idea.
05-13-2012, 05:02 PM
#5
Hey, thanks.
Input shaft turns fine with the pump out. It turns fine with the pump in but no bolts. Bolt it down and it binds up.
Put the original pump in (the wrong one it was delivered with) and all is fine.
Thought about more gaskets, but that is a band aid. Also would increase clearance between the pump (big plastic thrust washer) and the drum.
That washer is .060" thickand is not shown as selectable.
I imagine most would never have this issue unless the trans was set up like mine with the wrong pump.
I am waiting for the company I purchased from to help me out here. I have a warranty.
I have looked at various rebuild pictorials, and I see where the selective thrust washer and torrington are and how to get to them. What I will need are the correct parts, and an ok to do the work myself. I understand the difficulty.
Thinking about boxing this all back up and returning and losing 3 weeks on my project is driving me nuts.
Like I said, I have done my own TH400's over the years. So I know how to work on automatics. This was rather unexpected.
I have no desire to drag the supplier through the mud here. I just want them to take care of me. Ya know? And of course agree that I found the issue.
And, thanks for responding. and yes, that is way more work than I wanted to do. I believe that is waht I paid them to do.
Ron
Input shaft turns fine with the pump out. It turns fine with the pump in but no bolts. Bolt it down and it binds up.
Put the original pump in (the wrong one it was delivered with) and all is fine.
Thought about more gaskets, but that is a band aid. Also would increase clearance between the pump (big plastic thrust washer) and the drum.
That washer is .060" thickand is not shown as selectable.
I imagine most would never have this issue unless the trans was set up like mine with the wrong pump.
I am waiting for the company I purchased from to help me out here. I have a warranty.
I have looked at various rebuild pictorials, and I see where the selective thrust washer and torrington are and how to get to them. What I will need are the correct parts, and an ok to do the work myself. I understand the difficulty.
Thinking about boxing this all back up and returning and losing 3 weeks on my project is driving me nuts.
Like I said, I have done my own TH400's over the years. So I know how to work on automatics. This was rather unexpected.
I have no desire to drag the supplier through the mud here. I just want them to take care of me. Ya know? And of course agree that I found the issue.
And, thanks for responding. and yes, that is way more work than I wanted to do. I believe that is waht I paid them to do.
Ron
05-13-2012, 07:09 PM
#6
Moderator
Clearly you are binding up.
I just wanted to document what it will take to fix it and point it is non-trivial.
Since your trans supplier should be warranting it, here is my suggestion:
Get them to OK having you take the trans to a local shop for repair and then reimburse you. It would barely take me an hour to fix this and a pro probably less. So you should be talking less than $100. A lot quicker and everyone will save on shipping costs.
I just wanted to document what it will take to fix it and point it is non-trivial.
Since your trans supplier should be warranting it, here is my suggestion:
Get them to OK having you take the trans to a local shop for repair and then reimburse you. It would barely take me an hour to fix this and a pro probably less. So you should be talking less than $100. A lot quicker and everyone will save on shipping costs.
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05-14-2012, 09:38 AM
#8
You probably crushed the overrunning clutch there are toolroom all the way in the bottom of the forward drum, they're the two smallest clutches, then you have forward clutches, then you have 3-4 clutches on the top of the drum. If you did not damage the overrun clutches then go with a thinner input drum washer,let know me know what number you have. Here are some pictures of the washer on the input drum the bearing rides on top of it.
Last edited by maddoglou454; 05-14-2012 at 09:50 AM.
05-14-2012, 12:29 PM
#9
I am happy to say my vendor has agreed with my findings and new thrust washers are on the way overnight delivery. So how about that for service on a Sunday! Late!
They are taking care of me, and that's all I hoped for. Mistakes happen. I have made a few myself!
And thanks Mrvedit for the helpful PM's. Made a new intenet friend along the way.
Happy motoring folks!
Ron
They are taking care of me, and that's all I hoped for. Mistakes happen. I have made a few myself!
And thanks Mrvedit for the helpful PM's. Made a new intenet friend along the way.
Happy motoring folks!
Ron
