4l60E Transmission difference 6 cyl
12-16-2017, 06:06 PM
#21
Wanna talk about Sonnax's pressure limiting boost valve for a 4L80E? Worn out in 18,000 miles. Sure it wasn't sloppy out of the box, but those nice tight o-rings and whatever didn't prevent it from becoming a paper weight in short time.
12-16-2017, 06:17 PM
#22
No, there are no significant differences; the internals are the same.
The ONLY differences will be in the size of a few holes in the separator plate and perhaps the stiffness of the springs in the 1-2 accumulator. The V6 is thereby "tuned" for softer shifts. The separator plate can have a few holes drilled larger to make the shifts more firm. Better yet would be to install the Transgo HD2 shift kit which gives you the drilling directions, firmer springs and boosts the line pressure so that the frictions and band last longer with higher HP.
My mistake: While the "internals" are the same, there are significant differences in the input shaft, pump and bell housing which make a V6 trans unsuitable.
The ONLY differences will be in the size of a few holes in the separator plate and perhaps the stiffness of the springs in the 1-2 accumulator. The V6 is thereby "tuned" for softer shifts. The separator plate can have a few holes drilled larger to make the shifts more firm. Better yet would be to install the Transgo HD2 shift kit which gives you the drilling directions, firmer springs and boosts the line pressure so that the frictions and band last longer with higher HP.
My mistake: While the "internals" are the same, there are significant differences in the input shaft, pump and bell housing which make a V6 trans unsuitable.
The OP is dealing with a 60 degree V6 which has a different bellhousing, input, stator shaft, minor calibration changes.
Now along comes Waid, didn't post it here but he has a 4.3 V6. Same differences but two different types of bellhousings, inputs, stator shafts, even less calibration differences. The 4.3 V6 transmission can be used on a 4.8 or any other LS type engine using a torque converter pilot spacer and bolting it to the engine with 5 bolts instead of 8.
The 60 degree v6 transmission can't be adapted, the parts need to be swapped.
12-16-2017, 07:14 PM
#23
On The Tree
So I was at the yard today getting couple of wire harness connectors for my swap. I found two 4L60E which were already out of Trailbalzer. At our pick a part, they don't care if you destroy a trany in order get a $5 part out of it! I figure this would be a good opportunity to check it out and practice! I took my phone out and watched the following video and it was piece of cake.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=hHKU0zVcwpQ&t=568s
On both of them, the separator plate had lots of wear from the *****. I assume these were high mile transmission.
For some reason, I could not get the boost valve out after removing he snap ring. It would come out little bit and come to a hard stop.
Any idea?
Also, there are two screen which I believe are called EPC Solenoid Screen. I broke all 4 of them trying to get them out. They were very brittle.
Do these have to come out for the Transgo kit and does the kit comes with new ones?
Waid
www.youtube.com/watch?v=hHKU0zVcwpQ&t=568s
On both of them, the separator plate had lots of wear from the *****. I assume these were high mile transmission.
For some reason, I could not get the boost valve out after removing he snap ring. It would come out little bit and come to a hard stop.
Any idea?
Also, there are two screen which I believe are called EPC Solenoid Screen. I broke all 4 of them trying to get them out. They were very brittle.
Do these have to come out for the Transgo kit and does the kit comes with new ones?
Waid
12-16-2017, 07:25 PM
#24
The boost valve is a tight fit, if it was sideways a little or had junk in it from worn parts that would make it difficult. That goes to show you how tight a worn out valve is and the overkill it might be to get one with o-rings on it. EDIT XXXX I have noticed on most late 90's and newer ones the case is casted a little in the way of pulling the valve out. I use a die grinder at home. Might be able to shave it off with a knife in the yard.
The epc screens don't need to be removed. Age and heat make them brittle. You need to be very careful to get them out in one piece. The transgo kit has you drill a few small holes in the EPC screen. I have spares. Somehow. If I had access to that yard I'd have more I can tell you that.
My local yard started scrapping transmissions instead of selling for cores which I think sucks but they let people take them apart. The upap here I don't know well...yet.
The epc screens don't need to be removed. Age and heat make them brittle. You need to be very careful to get them out in one piece. The transgo kit has you drill a few small holes in the EPC screen. I have spares. Somehow. If I had access to that yard I'd have more I can tell you that.
My local yard started scrapping transmissions instead of selling for cores which I think sucks but they let people take them apart. The upap here I don't know well...yet.
12-20-2017, 05:54 PM
#25
On The Tree
https://ls1tech.com/forums/automatic...y-install.html
Like this ?
12-20-2017, 06:04 PM
#26
I received my HD kit today. Regarding your Accumulator suggestion, I found your picture here:
https://ls1tech.com/forums/automatic...y-install.html
Like this ?
https://ls1tech.com/forums/automatic...y-install.html
Like this ?
12-20-2017, 06:12 PM
#27
On The Tree
2-3 Shift
0.093 Hi-Stall conv or
0.101 full race
However, 1-2 Shift, I don't see 0.070
1-2 Shift
0.082 short and
0.093 full race & Hi-Stall conv.
You want me to keep on small side which is 0.082. Correct?
The S10 V6 4L60E does have little higher stall converter doesn't it?
Waid
12-20-2017, 07:07 PM
#28
On Page 4 Separator Plate for drilling holes I see:
2-3 Shift
0.093 Hi-Stall conv or
0.101 full race
However, 1-2 Shift, I don't see 0.070
1-2 Shift
0.082 short and
0.093 full race & Hi-Stall conv.
You want me to keep on small side which is 0.082. Correct?
The S10 V6 4L60E does have little higher stall converter doesn't it?
Waid
2-3 Shift
0.093 Hi-Stall conv or
0.101 full race
However, 1-2 Shift, I don't see 0.070
1-2 Shift
0.082 short and
0.093 full race & Hi-Stall conv.
You want me to keep on small side which is 0.082. Correct?
The S10 V6 4L60E does have little higher stall converter doesn't it?
Waid
It's very easy to make the 1-2 shift firm or too firm. I'd drill it .082 and if you want it more firm you can remove three bolts for the accumulator and add a washer to firm it up. Thats way easier and cheaper than making a hole in the plate smaller (aka replacing the plate (or peening the hole smaller by hammering a check ball over it).
The HD2 kit in my '99 s10 came out of a transmission I bought used. The hole was drilled .093. I did what transgo recommended in some other kit instructions to peen the hole smaller. It didn't work, I tuned it to make it less firm.
12-20-2017, 07:49 PM
#29
On The Tree
I will drill Shift 1-2 to 0.082.
Forgive my ignorance and lack of valve body knowledge, why drill 2-3 Shift to 0.110 ?
The kit says 0.101 is for full race and you are recommending beyond that.
Thank you
Waid
12-20-2017, 07:49 PM
#30
Moderator
As Jay say, keep the 1-2 shift hole at .082 and start with zero washers in the accumulator.
However drill the 2-3 shift hole to the larger .101 size.
Do you have new EPC screens?
You really should install new ones to ensure you aren't installing partly clogged ones even though HD2 has you drill those tiny holes.
If you have a few days, I can send you new ones; or just ask at a local trans shop.
Why not update your profile with your city and state; that helps hook up (if needed) with a nearby sponsor or pro.
However drill the 2-3 shift hole to the larger .101 size.
Do you have new EPC screens?
You really should install new ones to ensure you aren't installing partly clogged ones even though HD2 has you drill those tiny holes.
If you have a few days, I can send you new ones; or just ask at a local trans shop.
Why not update your profile with your city and state; that helps hook up (if needed) with a nearby sponsor or pro.
12-20-2017, 08:05 PM
#31
On The Tree
Just trying to understand why drill 2-3 to larger size. Is it 0.101 or 0.110 ?
In Indianapolis, there is Transmission Parts distributor called Whatever It Takes Transmission, Inc. and will pick new EPC screens tomorrow!
I am planning to install the kit tomorrow or Friday. Keep in mind I also have the Corvette servo as well.
https://www.wittrans.com/
Last edited by waid786; 12-20-2017 at 08:17 PM.
12-20-2017, 08:21 PM
#32
The reason to go bigger on the 2-3 is because the third gear fluid circuit is long and a lot is happening. It has to push the 2nd gear band off at the same time it applies the 3-4 clutches.
Drilling all (except 1-2) to .093 eliminates the chance for shift timing problems. You can get a cut loose or tie up during the 2-3 shift if the holes, band clearance and 3-4 clutch isn't all within certain specs.
I have papers from TransGo that instruct to drill the 3rd hole to .140, but you have to do other mods to keep shift timing correct, and it eliminates part of the 3rd circuit.
Back when the 700R4 (4L60) was the big thing the hole sizes in the plate were huge with a shift kit. It took people a while to figure out why these numbers didn't work with the 4L60E.
I do have two 4L60E's with the 3rd at .140, band release at .104, 4th at .125, one with a 3400 stall speed and one with a 3600 stall speed. But there are other trans mods. EDIT: AND 2ND ONLY .093
My '99 s10 has the kit installed as instructed and it works great, but I built it and set all clutch and band clearances.
I have two stock 4.3 s10's with the SK kit all holes drilled out to the same specs, plus vette servo with the transgo shim, .500 boost valve, and they shift perfect.
Last edited by Jays_SSZ28; 12-20-2017 at 08:30 PM.
12-20-2017, 08:23 PM
#33
Moderator
I suggested .101, Jay may have suggested .110 and others may suggest up to .125 (1/8").
One reason for the large hole is that no one here ever complains about overly firm 2->3 shifts. Maybe Miss Daisy, but no one here.
But mostly because the 3/4 apply fluid has a complicated route with many potential areas for leakage. The larger hole makes enough fluid available to overcome any small leaks; otherwise small leaks cause slow shifts, even flares, and faster wear of the already-marginal 3/4 clutch.
IIRC, anything bigger than .110 requires the helper spring in the servo (supplied with the HD2 kit) but I don't know the details. Perhaps Clinebarger or one of the other pros can explain it.
One reason for the large hole is that no one here ever complains about overly firm 2->3 shifts. Maybe Miss Daisy, but no one here.
But mostly because the 3/4 apply fluid has a complicated route with many potential areas for leakage. The larger hole makes enough fluid available to overcome any small leaks; otherwise small leaks cause slow shifts, even flares, and faster wear of the already-marginal 3/4 clutch.
IIRC, anything bigger than .110 requires the helper spring in the servo (supplied with the HD2 kit) but I don't know the details. Perhaps Clinebarger or one of the other pros can explain it.
12-20-2017, 08:33 PM
#36
On The Tree
Since I am also installing a Corvette servo, i will drill 2-3 to 0.101. I want to do this once while its out and not keep tinkering with it
I don't know what condition my separator plate is in but I did get a new one just in case.
Here the 4L60E getting ready for the shift kit. My 4.8 with 80's Camro smaller pulley and a Trailblazer serpentine belt is exact fit. Both look little dusty since they have been sitting for a while. I have been working trying to finish my 64 Falcon with Carb 5.0 with T5 & 3.73 8.8!
Waid
I don't know what condition my separator plate is in but I did get a new one just in case.
Here the 4L60E getting ready for the shift kit. My 4.8 with 80's Camro smaller pulley and a Trailblazer serpentine belt is exact fit. Both look little dusty since they have been sitting for a while. I have been working trying to finish my 64 Falcon with Carb 5.0 with T5 & 3.73 8.8!
Waid
Last edited by waid786; 12-20-2017 at 10:28 PM.
12-20-2017, 10:33 PM
#37
On The Tree
What fluid are you using?
I was going to grab some standard Dexron III.
I also bought a Hayden Automotive 678 ATF cooler which is 3/4 inch x 11 inch x 9-1/2 inch.
Waid
I was going to grab some standard Dexron III.
I also bought a Hayden Automotive 678 ATF cooler which is 3/4 inch x 11 inch x 9-1/2 inch.
Waid
12-21-2017, 06:56 AM
#39
On The Tree
12-21-2017, 08:31 PM
#40
TECH Fanatic
I suggested .101, Jay may have suggested .110 and others may suggest up to .125 (1/8").
One reason for the large hole is that no one here ever complains about overly firm 2->3 shifts. Maybe Miss Daisy, but no one here.
But mostly because the 3/4 apply fluid has a complicated route with many potential areas for leakage. The larger hole makes enough fluid available to overcome any small leaks; otherwise small leaks cause slow shifts, even flares, and faster wear of the already-marginal 3/4 clutch.
IIRC, anything bigger than .110 requires the helper spring in the servo (supplied with the HD2 kit) but I don't know the details. Perhaps Clinebarger or one of the other pros can explain it.
One reason for the large hole is that no one here ever complains about overly firm 2->3 shifts. Maybe Miss Daisy, but no one here.
But mostly because the 3/4 apply fluid has a complicated route with many potential areas for leakage. The larger hole makes enough fluid available to overcome any small leaks; otherwise small leaks cause slow shifts, even flares, and faster wear of the already-marginal 3/4 clutch.
IIRC, anything bigger than .110 requires the helper spring in the servo (supplied with the HD2 kit) but I don't know the details. Perhaps Clinebarger or one of the other pros can explain it.
If leaving the 3-2 valve active.....Don't go over .110 on the 3rd feed hole & leave the Band Release orifice alone/Don't go over .086".
When blocking the 3-2 valve inboard.....You can open the 3rd clutch feed up to .125" & the Band Release hole to .093" without danger of a 2-3 cut-loose from the band coming off to early.
With a factory stall converter & a 093 2nd piston......Drill the 2nd clutch feed to .076" (Assuming a DX code accumulator bushing/valve is being used).
Every builder has their own opinions on this!