Help with 4l60e parts list
Thread Starter
Teching In
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 27
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From: Plainfield, IL
Help with 4l60e parts list Ok, so I'm rebuilding the 4l60e in my wifes' trans am. I have already gotten it apart and I have some of the parts that I need but I want to buy only what I need and not a bunch of extra ****. I'm on a tight budget (I know like everone else) and I want to get the right **** for the car. Here is what I have so far:
What I want to get left is:
I have a few questions. I could not find no matter how hard I have looked PN's to borg warner clutches and steels to get exactly what I need. I wish the ATSG manuals had PN's in them. Also are kolene steels necessary everywhere else inside the trans in addition to the 3/4 pack? Or are they really only needed there. Are standard clutch number configurations sufficient in the forward and low packs? Does anyone have PN's for these that I can use? Can I just order the rest of these things from someone at PBA?
Other backgound info, car is a 2000 trans am, trans has never been gone through I don't think. Looks original, when I tore it apart it was full of clutch material, the plans for this car is a bolt on car for next summer, and eventually a heads/cam car. I have a 3.73 for it, would like to put a 3200-3500 stall in it nearly stock weight car and bracket race and drive it on the street. I don't plan to beef up the servos because they look good and they are already the corvette servos. Any help is greatly appreciated. I have already called PBA and left a message my name is Eliot.
- Beast sunshell
- borg warner 29 element sprag
- low/reverse roller clutch
- a re machined reverse input drum (mine was warped)
- transgo HD2 kit
- sonnex pinnless accumulator piston kit
- sonnex release check valve kit
- a new valvebody harness with a new TCC solenoid
What I want to get left is:
- Borg Warner high energy 3-4 clutch kit. (I was looking at some of the kits on PBA like the 0.062" 9 clutch pack with Kolene steels)
- Also need the rest of the clutches for the trans I don't think any of them are bad but I think I should replace them anyway. So that means borg HEG clutchs and steels for; reverse input, overrun, forward, and low/reverse)
- extra wide carbon band
- 13 vane rotor kit (havent torn the pump completely apart yet so idk)
- bearing and thrust washer kit
- bushing kit with extra wide sun shell bushing
- master overhaul kit that includes; gaskets, seals, teflon seals, ect
- input drum reinforcment sleeve with the overrun piston and proper forward piston
I have a few questions. I could not find no matter how hard I have looked PN's to borg warner clutches and steels to get exactly what I need. I wish the ATSG manuals had PN's in them. Also are kolene steels necessary everywhere else inside the trans in addition to the 3/4 pack? Or are they really only needed there. Are standard clutch number configurations sufficient in the forward and low packs? Does anyone have PN's for these that I can use? Can I just order the rest of these things from someone at PBA?
Other backgound info, car is a 2000 trans am, trans has never been gone through I don't think. Looks original, when I tore it apart it was full of clutch material, the plans for this car is a bolt on car for next summer, and eventually a heads/cam car. I have a 3.73 for it, would like to put a 3200-3500 stall in it nearly stock weight car and bracket race and drive it on the street. I don't plan to beef up the servos because they look good and they are already the corvette servos. Any help is greatly appreciated. I have already called PBA and left a message my name is Eliot.
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Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 7,323
Likes: 529
From: Ann Arbor, MI
You have a good selection of parts.
Skip the Sonnax servo release check valve - while I have recommended it in the past and use it myself, pro builders are not in favor of it, especially not with the HD2 kit. Just drill the 3rd apply hole to .101.
Your trans probably has a 13 vane rotor. More important is the condition of the pump surfaces in the pump.
An OEM Master rebuild kit for a 4L65E will have 7 frictions for the 3/4 clutch. Alternatively I would get a just a 7 friction BW HE setup, not a 9 friction setup. Kolene steels are not worth extra cost or effort; if you have them cool, if not don't worry about it.
Keep in mind that the Sonnax pinless piston does not work with the HD2 kit; just use a OEM aluminum piston.
Skip the Sonnax servo release check valve - while I have recommended it in the past and use it myself, pro builders are not in favor of it, especially not with the HD2 kit. Just drill the 3rd apply hole to .101.
Your trans probably has a 13 vane rotor. More important is the condition of the pump surfaces in the pump.
An OEM Master rebuild kit for a 4L65E will have 7 frictions for the 3/4 clutch. Alternatively I would get a just a 7 friction BW HE setup, not a 9 friction setup. Kolene steels are not worth extra cost or effort; if you have them cool, if not don't worry about it.
Keep in mind that the Sonnax pinless piston does not work with the HD2 kit; just use a OEM aluminum piston.
Sonnax has a nice valve option to add engine braking in gears 1 & 2 which I have and love it.
Look at the 4L65E upgrade pieces available from GM like the 5 pinion planetaries...
http://www.genuinegmparts.com/pdf/po...E%20Family.pdf
Also, check out this cool parts breakdown:
http://www.makcotransmissionparts.co...00R4-4L60E.pdf
Look at the 4L65E upgrade pieces available from GM like the 5 pinion planetaries...
http://www.genuinegmparts.com/pdf/po...E%20Family.pdf
Also, check out this cool parts breakdown:
http://www.makcotransmissionparts.co...00R4-4L60E.pdf
Last edited by libertyforall1776; Jun 18, 2015 at 12:13 AM. Reason: link add
Thread Starter
Teching In
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 27
Likes: 0
From: Plainfield, IL
You have a good selection of parts.
Skip the Sonnax servo release check valve - while I have recommended it in the past and use it myself, pro builders are not in favor of it, especially not with the HD2 kit. Just drill the 3rd apply hole to .101.
Your trans probably has a 13 vane rotor. More important is the condition of the pump surfaces in the pump.
An OEM Master rebuild kit for a 4L65E will have 7 frictions for the 3/4 clutch. Alternatively I would get a just a 7 friction BW HE setup, not a 9 friction setup. Kolene steels are not worth extra cost or effort; if you have them cool, if not don't worry about it.
Keep in mind that the Sonnax pinless piston does not work with the HD2 kit; just use a OEM aluminum piston.
Skip the Sonnax servo release check valve - while I have recommended it in the past and use it myself, pro builders are not in favor of it, especially not with the HD2 kit. Just drill the 3rd apply hole to .101.
Your trans probably has a 13 vane rotor. More important is the condition of the pump surfaces in the pump.
An OEM Master rebuild kit for a 4L65E will have 7 frictions for the 3/4 clutch. Alternatively I would get a just a 7 friction BW HE setup, not a 9 friction setup. Kolene steels are not worth extra cost or effort; if you have them cool, if not don't worry about it.
Keep in mind that the Sonnax pinless piston does not work with the HD2 kit; just use a OEM aluminum piston.
Moderator
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 7,323
Likes: 529
From: Ann Arbor, MI
^^^ +1
The Sonnax HD 2-3 shift valve also strengthens the trans by reducing load on the forward sprag by keeping the overrun clutches applied in D3.
The HD2 has a "Command downshift" valve. IMHO it is crazy to install that as you could then overrev the engine with an accidental downshift.
The Sonnax HD 2-3 shift valve also strengthens the trans by reducing load on the forward sprag by keeping the overrun clutches applied in D3.
The HD2 has a "Command downshift" valve. IMHO it is crazy to install that as you could then overrev the engine with an accidental downshift.
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Verdad Gallardo Thread Starter
Teching In
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 27
Likes: 0
From: Plainfield, IL
^^^^I agree, I'm not trying to go crazy with this thing. Its only gonna be a bolt on car for now, and maybe next yea, cam and heads. 3600lbs, 3.73, and I'll put a 3400 to 3600 stall in it. Not breaking any records here. I just want to put the right stuff in it and do it once. I broke most of it down last night. intermediate band is burnt, 3/4 clutchs are burnt, overrun clutches are so far gone that they are ground down to metal on one side, the forward clutches are burnt a little near the ID, and the reverse input, and low reverse clutches look fine, nothing is scored or cracked, bushings all look good. I will post up some pictures tomorrow.
Well they are standard in the 4L65E & 4L70E... I put them in mine, and TSI Racing's Don Stanley said he would put them in if it were his.
"These planets have 25% more load carrying ability. Keep in mind GM felt the need to turn to this planet in 2002 with the y-body and made it standard on all LQ9 equipped trucks. These vehicles only came with 345hp and 385 ft lbs of torque with loads of torque management programmed in from the factory."
Source: http://www.4l60-e.com
"These planets have 25% more load carrying ability. Keep in mind GM felt the need to turn to this planet in 2002 with the y-body and made it standard on all LQ9 equipped trucks. These vehicles only came with 345hp and 385 ft lbs of torque with loads of torque management programmed in from the factory."
Source: http://www.4l60-e.com
Last edited by libertyforall1776; May 11, 2015 at 11:04 PM.
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Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 7,323
Likes: 529
From: Ann Arbor, MI
Highly respected sponsor FLT doesn't use (or at least guarantee) the 5-pinion planets in their Level 3 or 4 transmission, not until their Level 5+.
I've been cautious about recommending them because a new GM front 5-pinion also needs the new style reaction carrier shaft and bearing between them. If an older reaction carrier shaft (even from a 4L65E) is used with the new style front 5-pinion, the bearing has nothing to center it and total failure is likely.
Also, I suspect most rear pinion failures where due to the inner bearing overheating due to torsional load from the stock style Sun Shell (or Beast). The Sonnax Smart Shell eliminates that load and the rear planet should last much longer.
A bunch of performance builders have told me the 5-pinion planets are unnecessary for most non-adder applications.
If you budget allows, the 5-pinion planets are a good upgrade. For details of the necessary parts see my post #12 in this thread:
https://ls1tech.com/forums/automatic...n-planets.html
I've been cautious about recommending them because a new GM front 5-pinion also needs the new style reaction carrier shaft and bearing between them. If an older reaction carrier shaft (even from a 4L65E) is used with the new style front 5-pinion, the bearing has nothing to center it and total failure is likely.
Also, I suspect most rear pinion failures where due to the inner bearing overheating due to torsional load from the stock style Sun Shell (or Beast). The Sonnax Smart Shell eliminates that load and the rear planet should last much longer.
A bunch of performance builders have told me the 5-pinion planets are unnecessary for most non-adder applications.
If you budget allows, the 5-pinion planets are a good upgrade. For details of the necessary parts see my post #12 in this thread:
https://ls1tech.com/forums/automatic...n-planets.html
I am starting to subscribe to the "do it once, do it right" principle.
Not to talk bad about anyone, but when I called FLT and called TSI Racing (Addison, IL) a couple years back for a rebuild, I got a much better explanation and feeling of confidence about what was going to be performed from the later. In fact I got a real education on the phone and every time I ask questions, and am always shown my broken parts with explanations when I inquire. Definitely unusual these days to get an old school shop that actually cares to explain things to you. I LOVE getting educated! Oh and TSI Racing also services Bruno Massel's winning 5th Gen COPO Camaro trans:
http://www.gmserviceinsights.com/201...-then-a-title/
Not to talk bad about anyone, but when I called FLT and called TSI Racing (Addison, IL) a couple years back for a rebuild, I got a much better explanation and feeling of confidence about what was going to be performed from the later. In fact I got a real education on the phone and every time I ask questions, and am always shown my broken parts with explanations when I inquire. Definitely unusual these days to get an old school shop that actually cares to explain things to you. I LOVE getting educated! Oh and TSI Racing also services Bruno Massel's winning 5th Gen COPO Camaro trans:
http://www.gmserviceinsights.com/201...-then-a-title/
Highly respected sponsor FLT doesn't use (or at least guarantee) the 5-pinion planets in their Level 3 or 4 transmission, not until their Level 5+.
I've been cautious about recommending them because a new GM front 5-pinion also needs the new style reaction carrier shaft and bearing between them. If an older reaction carrier shaft (even from a 4L65E) is used with the new style front 5-pinion, the bearing has nothing to center it and total failure is likely.
Also, I suspect most rear pinion failures where due to the inner bearing overheating due to torsional load from the stock style Sun Shell (or Beast). The Sonnax Smart Shell eliminates that load and the rear planet should last much longer.
A bunch of performance builders have told me the 5-pinion planets are unnecessary for most non-adder applications.
If you budget allows, the 5-pinion planets are a good upgrade. For details of the necessary parts see my post #12 in this thread:
https://ls1tech.com/forums/automatic...n-planets.html
I've been cautious about recommending them because a new GM front 5-pinion also needs the new style reaction carrier shaft and bearing between them. If an older reaction carrier shaft (even from a 4L65E) is used with the new style front 5-pinion, the bearing has nothing to center it and total failure is likely.
Also, I suspect most rear pinion failures where due to the inner bearing overheating due to torsional load from the stock style Sun Shell (or Beast). The Sonnax Smart Shell eliminates that load and the rear planet should last much longer.
A bunch of performance builders have told me the 5-pinion planets are unnecessary for most non-adder applications.
If you budget allows, the 5-pinion planets are a good upgrade. For details of the necessary parts see my post #12 in this thread:
https://ls1tech.com/forums/automatic...n-planets.html
Moderator
Joined: Aug 2010
Posts: 7,323
Likes: 529
From: Ann Arbor, MI
However I know most everyone is on a budget and wants to see a prioritized list and/or separation between "essential" and "optional".
Heck I remember someone complaining about my advise to replace both shift solenoids when it appeared only one was bad. (My advise was partly because people often mix them up, but mostly because if one is bad the other is likely to fail soon.)
I discounted the complaint because if someone cannot afford an extra $12 part they cannot afford to maintain a 12+ year old car.
But I learned to make a clearer distinction between essential and optional.
Even your "do it right" is probably budget restrained because you can spend $5000+ on a 4L65E with a Sonnax input drum, billet input and output shafts, billet overrun or forward piston billet pump rotor and a billet 6-pinion front planet.
Obviously I would suggest 5 pinions planets before any of those fancy parts, but for a stock LS1 with just bolt-ons I would consider it optional and not essential.
It is good to have these discussions as everyone considering these upgrades has to make their own decision.
TECH Junkie
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 3,051
Likes: 716
From: Poplarville, MS
Just because one does not use 5 pinion planets in their build does not mean they are not doing the job right. If you want to spend the money for parts that are more than what is needed that is your business, but don’t say it’s not built right without them.
As mrvedit said 5 pinion planets are “optional and not essential”. Most cars don’t need them, but some do. It depends on HP, the weight of the vehicle and the way the vehicle will be driven.
As mrvedit said 5 pinion planets are “optional and not essential”. Most cars don’t need them, but some do. It depends on HP, the weight of the vehicle and the way the vehicle will be driven.
TECH Resident
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 969
Likes: 119
For the last 20+ years in all of my 9 & 10 second transmissions and customers building their own 9 & 10 second units using my kits. All have used the 4 pinion planetary setup without any failure. The 4 pinion setup has never been a problem.
The strip is a little different use case than the street when one is constantly getting on it as a DD in nice weather or track like Road America...
What HP/lb ft TQ ranges have they been?
I would be curious to hear about what failures did occur in these 9/10 sec. 1/4 units?
What HP/lb ft TQ ranges have they been?
I would be curious to hear about what failures did occur in these 9/10 sec. 1/4 units?
Every time I think about building a trans myself,I start reading, Like I was just doing, and decide I don't know enough, and bail out, just like I read things in this thread. I don't even know what I don't know....I am that dangerous!
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Joined: Jun 2015
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I agree that the 5-pinion planet is overkill in most situations. I've used this buyers guide that has an explanation between what's in a 4L60E/4L65E ovehraul, banner, master, etc kits. There's so much out there and it seems like each seller calls their kit something different. One company's "Master Kit" is another company's "Stage II". It's like some sellers try to push you either in the high-performance direction or cheap direction.
http://www.gmtransmissionparts.com/7...-buyers-guide/
When I'm rebuilding a 4L60E for someone (I do it on the side locally maybe 2 a month) usually the only upgrades I really "push" people to do are the sun shells and if it's a 90s 4L60E I'll use the Sonnax TCC valve to eliminate a P1870 code from popping up.
That guide I found to be pretty good though. And all their overhaul kits have individual listings of every component in them, so you know exactly what you're getting.
http://www.gmtransmissionparts.com/7...-buyers-guide/
When I'm rebuilding a 4L60E for someone (I do it on the side locally maybe 2 a month) usually the only upgrades I really "push" people to do are the sun shells and if it's a 90s 4L60E I'll use the Sonnax TCC valve to eliminate a P1870 code from popping up.
That guide I found to be pretty good though. And all their overhaul kits have individual listings of every component in them, so you know exactly what you're getting.